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Why couldnt we do this for the Inline six?

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Why couldnt we do this for the Inline six?

Post #1 by Anlushac11 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:46 pm

On the 2.3L turbo front the search for a stronger transmission for the guys running over 300hp has led to someone creating a block adapter plate.

Seems this would not be all that hard to do for the 170/200 Inline six. Does require a zero balance V8 flywheel drilled for the Inline six crank pattern. The 2.3L guys are getting theirs from SPEC clutches.

Then we could easily drop in a V8 T5 with V8 bellhousing and its associated easy to find linkage.

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Post #2 by Asa » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:14 pm

it should be relatively easy to do, it just would cost money
especially considering how many separate bellhousing patterns we have

try PMing Mike to see if there's actually any real interest in this? my best suggestion

but i'd like to see a new head for the 4.9L from him before anything else
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Post #3 by Anlushac11 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:55 pm

Asa wrote:it should be relatively easy to do, it just would cost money
especially considering how many separate bellhousing patterns we have

try PMing Mike to see if there's actually any real interest in this? my best suggestion

but i'd like to see a new head for the 4.9L from him before anything else


I was thinking that while it would allow use of V8 T5 bellhousings I dont think Falcon owners could use it due to too small transmission tunnels.

And your also right that there are many other items that should have higher priority.

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Post #4 by Asa » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:52 pm

although honestly, it should be pretty easy to do...
who here has CAD?
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Post #5 by wallaka » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:23 pm

Asa wrote:it should be relatively easy to do, it just would cost money
especially considering how many separate bellhousing patterns we have


I don't think it would be a problem for the adapter to be dual-drilled to allow both large and small patterns.

Actually, wasn't the small pattern still on the post-60's blocks? Then only the small pattern needs to be made.
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Post #6 by rommaster2 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:55 am

well i know in terms of a t5 its already handled by modern drivelines.

However one for the 2.77 to 3.03 could be made simply because it would allow the use of toploaders they would just have to be duel drilled.

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Post #7 by wallaka » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:51 am

This would be easier than the modern drivelines solution, esp. if you don't already have a suitable bellhousing for the swap.
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Post #8 by Bort62 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:55 am

This would be both very easy to design as well as fabricate (water jet cut would be relatively cheap.)

Question is:

a.) Is it really better than the current offerings?

b.) Is there enough market to actually support it?

If you could tell me I would sell 100 of these things over the next two years, I'll have them ready in a month.

But I'm not really willing to throw up the ~ 5-600$ it would cost to get a prototype made to only sell 5.

If we are going to make tranny adapters, let's adapt the T56 ;)

And yeah, V8 T5 bellhousing won't fit in early Falcon.

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Post #9 by rommaster2 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:22 pm

wallaka wrote:This would be easier than the modern drivelines solution, esp. if you don't already have a suitable bellhousing for the swap.


I don't see how its easier if you dont have a suitable bellhousing. You still need to buy a t5 bellhousing *shrug*. Basically you need to find a bellhousing either way and the only way i could see you not having a suitable bellhousing is if you had an automatic before in which case you still need much more then just a bellhousing.

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Post #10 by Bort62 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:44 pm

rommaster2 wrote:
wallaka wrote:This would be easier than the modern drivelines solution, esp. if you don't already have a suitable bellhousing for the swap.


I don't see how its easier if you dont have a suitable bellhousing. You still need to buy a t5 bellhousing *shrug*. Basically you need to find a bellhousing either way and the only way i could see you not having a suitable bellhousing is if you had an automatic before in which case you still need much more then just a bellhousing.


It would be easier in the sense that you could use a V8 bellhousing w/ provisions for cable or hydraulic clutch.

It would also allow you to use things like scatter shields, etc.

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Post #11 by MustangSix » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:30 pm

200 bellhousings are still pretty easy to find, so going to a V8 t-5 bell doesn't offer a lot, except for a cable-ready clutch. Cost-wise, this is probably no cheaper than adding a T-5 adapter to a regular bell. OTOH, this would give you an easy option to do an AOD with a 200. That's likely where most of the sales would be. AOD's fit well in Mustangs, but are tougher to fit in a round body.

Also, if your goal is to build a 300hp turbocharged 200, then this definitely helps with finding an appropriate clutch or torque converter. It's hard to reliably transmit that kind of power thru a single plate 9" clutch or a 9" torque converter.

If you had such an adapter and a redrilled flywheel, a T56 would be a bolt on, but really deep overdrive transmissions (.50 ? or .62 ??) are best coupled to a good electronic engine management system. A carb and DII won't give you the air/fuel mix and ignition curve you need when you're only turning 1500 rpm @ 75 mph.
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Post #12 by Stubby » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:08 pm

The countersink bolts can be a problem. I have lots of experience with these. The real design flaw is the added surface area from the angled surface, doesn't allow you to torque the bolt correctly. This results in the bolts working loose. They can be installed fairly well with neversieze, but they still require attention.

This would make it a low HP application for me. It would be nice to install a 4cyl T5 with the 4cyl flywheel and clutch on an early block.
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Post #13 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:41 pm

I have held a 2.3L bell to a 200 block before and the 200 just has a REAL short deck and only 4 bell bolts (the 2.3L has six) so I don't know how great it would be. granted you could use the extra bolt holes on a dual pattern block to get a little extra clamping force. don't forget with a plate you can get into oddball input shaft lengths too.

aside from teh AOd option I think a T5 bell custom built just make more sense. set it up with both pivots and just have a bolt on cable holder for the FOX guys.
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Post #14 by Anlushac11 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:51 pm

8)

I have dreams at night of a turbocharged, intercooled, fuel injected inline six Fox Mustang convertible with a six speed manual with a T-Bird or Cobra IRS rear.

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Post #15 by XFlow_Fairlane » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:20 pm

I would skip the 6 speed (at least if it was a T56....they are a heavy pig and the gearing sucks in them)

I pretty much have the rest of those parts though...


EFI Xflow.....Check
T5 transmission.......Check
Bellhousing for above......Check....
Fox convertable.......DOH!!

my dream of the last 10 years or so is a convert chassis with a coupe roof welded on it. keep the convert doors and side windows to build a hardtop. I think a hardtop fox would be a slick car and have more of that muscle car feel to it.
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Post #16 by Bort62 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:46 pm

Get the '93 camaro T56 and you don't have the gearing problem.

The T56 is an awesome transmission that is relatively inexpensive and will handle a TON of power in stock form.

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Post #17 by Anlushac11 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:32 pm

A friend just put a T56 in his 1970 Camaro SS with 427/435hp Vette motor that hes built up and its pretty slick. Course he can barely afford to drive it around the block, swear you can see the gas gauge going down.

We even found a ivory shifter ball that looks stock except its inscribed with the 6 speed gear pattern.

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Post #18 by CNC-Dude » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:14 pm

Asa wrote:although honestly, it should be pretty easy to do...
who here has CAD?
A part that simple wouldn't even need CAD! It is a good idea and would allow a lot of possibilities for eng./tranny swaps.... :D

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Post #19 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:09 pm

prototrac
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Post #20 by XFlow_Fairlane » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:33 am

Bort62 wrote:This would be both very easy to design as well as fabricate (water jet cut would be relatively cheap.)

Question is:

a.) Is it really better than the current offerings?

b.) Is there enough market to actually support it?

If you could tell me I would sell 100 of these things over the next two years, I'll have them ready in a month.

But I'm not really willing to throw up the ~ 5-600$ it would cost to get a prototype made to only sell 5.

If we are going to make tranny adapters, let's adapt the T56 ;)

And yeah, V8 T5 bellhousing won't fit in early Falcon.


I would drill it for both....the extra two holes won't hurt anyone as they aren't in the way for either bell pattern. don't forget you would also have to run a low mount starter (steering clearnace issues?)

to run a 5.0L T5 bell you would have to convert to a hydraulic or cable clutch also.

Forget the T56....I thought of it but it is not worth it. it eats ALOT of power WEIGHS a ton and is HUGE. plus it is pretty much a ultra close ratio 4 speed with double overdrive. yeah you can run 4.10's and be streetable but you almost have to run the 4.10's to have a usable first gear. (first is a 2.66 ratio)

if you want a better OD trans a TKO is a much better choice. you can get a bolt in replacement for a 3.03 bell I think?

honestly a none cast iron flywheel would be nice for a 200 (billet AL? or billet steel)

while a block plate would allow a better trans selection overall (AOD, T5, C6, etc) a cast bell could be made that was "universal" much easier. one casting and just machine it for a different app. leave the trans side thick and you could set your depth with machining and have the material for drillign whatever pattern in it. you could also have a pull or push style fork on it for either a cable or linkage clutch. casting in a boss for a cable would be a cinch too.

I think a better flywheel clutch would be nice. a bell for a diaphram clutch would be nice and a flywheel drilled for a 2.3L clutch would make things simple. I doubt there is 5 people on here that even need to run a beefier V8 spec flywheel.....and I am pretty sure most of them are running autos anyways.

I would vote for a T5 bell that is setup for a diaphram clutch and provisions for either a cable or linkage setup. have the cable setup take a 5.0L fork and cable.
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Post #21 by Anlushac11 » Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:48 pm

Many many moons ago when the sky was clear and buffalo roamed the plains there was talk about a new T5 bellhousing but me thinks it got put back on the "One of the next projects soon as cash reserve is built back up cause I spent a fortune designing aluminum cylinder heads" shelf.

I think its just to the right of the cast steel T3 flanged exhaust manifold :D

Im still young enough to wait and fly lazy circles hoping for a appearance.

In the meantime its back to "Adapt, improvise, overcome".

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Post #22 by CNC-Dude » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:15 pm

Stubby wrote:The countersink bolts can be a problem. I have lots of experience with these. The real design flaw is the added surface area from the angled surface, doesn't allow you to torque the bolt correctly. This results in the bolts working loose. They can be installed fairly well with neversieze, but they still require attention.

This would make it a low HP application for me. It would be nice to install a 4cyl T5 with the 4cyl flywheel and clutch on an early block.
Many of the problems I have seen with the countersunk fasteners is incorrect countersink angle/fastener matching. Most industries use 82 degree countersink tooling, then mistakenly use 90 degree countersink fasteners, and vice versa. This mismatch in angle mating surfaces will naturally not let a correct seating take place when the fastener is torqued. Most all racing trans/engine adapters use this method of plate retention fastening with out any problems or issues on engines that make well over 1000 HP. Problems usually come when the user inadvertantly looses or replaces the fasteners, not knowing there are different countersink angles to consider when buying fasteners, or when adapters are purchased without fasteners at all and no instructions to tell the user otherwise. Then there is always Lok-tite as an added precaution if any concern is still warranted.
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Post #23 by cargeke » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:57 am

I'd be interested in an AOD adapter.
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Post #24 by CNC-Dude » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:22 pm

If others could help with bolt pattern specs, I could contribute to the cause as well....

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Post #25 by cargeke » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:39 pm

If someone does have those specs, I've got CAD and a lot of spare time.
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Post #26 by CNC-Dude » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:22 pm

cargeke wrote:If someone does have those specs, I've got CAD and a lot of spare time.
That would be neat, I've got a really awesome CAM software package and could generate the program with no trouble....

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Post #27 by XFlow_Fairlane » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:11 pm

I might have access to a roamer (CMM machine) but no longer have a US spec block around.
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Post #28 by 350kmileford » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:07 am

And if you get the CAM programmed, I may have access to a cnc machine.

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Post #29 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:04 am

if it just some holes a sandwich jig and a drill press would be the cheapest and fastest way to due it.
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Post #30 by Cool23 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:08 pm

This place has been doing it for years.

These links will give you some idea

http://www.rodshop.com.au/trans_accesso ... omatic.htm

http://www.rodshop.com.au/trans_accessories/manual.htm

I have had a Toyota 5 speed behind my 170 Pursuit motor in the T Roadster for years. :D

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Post #31 by 63redtudor » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:25 am

You know, for the 215/223/262 & flathead six this might be an idea. I realise that they are a small part of our group here, but for them, the ability to use a more modern transmission/bellhousing/clutch might be a handy thing for them.
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Post #32 by CNC-Dude » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:47 am

63redtudor wrote:You know, for the 215/223/262 & flathead six this might be an idea. I realise that they are a small part of our group here, but for them, the ability to use a more modern transmission/bellhousing/clutch might be a handy thing for them.
Edwin
Would you be thinking of using a 302 type bellhousing as the other pattern to adapt to,if so i have a block plate to get all the dowel and bolt centerlines from, if you could provide the other dimensions....just a thought!

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Post #33 by CNC-Dude » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:48 am

63redtudor wrote:You know, for the 215/223/262 & flathead six this might be an idea. I realise that they are a small part of our group here, but for them, the ability to use a more modern transmission/bellhousing/clutch might be a handy thing for them.
Edwin
Would you be thinking of using a 302 type bellhousing as the other pattern to adapt to,if so i have a block plate to get all the dowel and bolt centerlines from, if you could provide the other dimensions....just a thought!

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Post #34 by addo » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:28 pm

It's a bit of a cyclical topic.

In many ways, the universal bell approach is best. However, founding costs and machining will push it up to a cost where many people will refuse to wear the expense.

Consider that if Az is "smart" about product line, there has to be a decent product margin on all items. This allows two things. Firstly occasional killer discounts, and secondly it makes them appealing as a buy-in for other retailers (rather than risk referring a customer).

So you have patternmaking and prototyping costs, then founding and machining expenses, logistics and warehousing all to keep the product in stock at zero margin. Add 50% to get your MSRP and discount back from there.

I believe that the right product could be saleable, but frankly some people would never be convinced, as it would not be cheap.

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Post #35 by CNC-Dude » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:02 pm

Those are all good points, but the product of interest would be a bellhousing adapter and not an actual bellhousing! It would be as pictured in the original post. A product that is CNC machined and also would be a product that very little R&D expense would be required. If I had the two bolt patterns required to adapt to and from, I could take a flat blank plate and in less than 10 minutes hand you back an adapter ready to bolt to your engine just as in the picture shown above. That would be the extent of any investment,R&D. Material cost and about 30 bucks for tooling would be how deep you would be to develop this product....

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Post #36 by rbohm » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:47 pm

8) there is one more thing that would need to be built, and that is a spacer that would fit between the crank and the flexplate/flywheel so it would again fit properly.
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Post #37 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:11 pm

why would you wast a CNC on something like that..... just a jig and a router with a end mill in it would work just fine. be faster and cheaper seeing how you dont need to keep using a CNC mill($$$$).....now for the holes a jig and a standard drill press...and then once all the holes are made a courter sink in that same drill press would finish it all up...
im talking about a sandwich jig if you no what im talking about...... the same jig will have the location for the holes and the pockets all im one.....
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Post #38 by CNC-Dude » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:42 am

You need to hold a lot closer tolerance for the holes that have the dowels than you could ever do with a drill press. Your center-to-center holes for the dowels in relation to the crank centerline is also very critical. Most CNC shops have a modest $80-$100 an hour shop rate for production parts. You could easily make 6-8 adapters an hour at $100/8=$12.50 ea. plus material of roughly $20 bucks per adapter puts you in them for $32.50 ea. You would be hard pressed to even make one in an hour doing it with your method,especially having to profile the outside and inside shapes and having to do all the tools changes by hand....

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Post #39 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:25 am

from CARRLANE
there drill bushing are +- .007 is that close enough?

what would the tool change involve? one end mill in a router.... and then all you would have to change is one tool in a drill press from the drill and the CS.
this way you dont need to involve a shop.
so even the machine cost is vary low.

and on a cnc how would you hold it? you would at lest want to start with 2 hole to locate and hold off of.......alot of the time if we get a custom job we wont wast our time tearing down our cnc mills. we'll just set it up on a bridge port. or if we need to we'll set it up on one of the cnc bridge ports. the haas and CINCINNATI almost never get torn apart for work like that......were not a 100% custom shop but about 30-40% of our work is custom.
so even if it would only take 10 mins to run there tear down time, set up time, and then run time..... and the price of making a fixture that will allow you to have quick changes and duplicate the accuracy
im sorry to rant about this.... but i just think a cnc mill would just be over kill for the work needed......i have all ways been told to keep it simple... and i try to flow that. what more simple then 2 plates with some holes and pins
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Post #40 by CNC-Dude » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:38 am

When you have done CNC for 20 years like I have it doesn't get any simpler, for me anyway!

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Post #41 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:56 am

well i can run a cnc just fine iv been runing them for 3 years now...... but a jig would just be more simple.
you no what a sandwich jig is?
and then just a few drill bushing in it so you dont need to use a center drill and still have it accurate.
now if you did it would you go through your shop? if so do you have any cnc mill just siting there? or would you have to tear it down ever time you want to make one? theres time(money) and then you would have to set up the fixture that would hold the plate(more money)
how are you going to hold it? cant hold it on the out side that has to be milled. drilling 2 holes in the plate? then you would have to use ether a drill press or bridge port (even more time/money) on top of that youll need a fixture to hold it(money) and tools (be nice to use a V7 cuter about 15 IPM at 2100 rpms but a 1/2" is about $80)
even with that fast of a cuter i think it will take over 30mins to cut that plate.
so start up cost with be vary high. and even after that if you have to take time to keep tearing a mill down that will eat up money.
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Post #42 by CNC-Dude » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:43 pm

I was looking at it from a manufacturers stand spoint, because thats what I do. If you were just going to make a one-off, then you might fashion a jig to keep from having to break down a set-up, and use a Bridgeport or drill press,or wait until one is being changed over to another job and slide it in then. I would consider making 10 or more at a time, or even more if it appeared to be a real good seller. You can easily take a 1/2" Hanita Vari-mill and do a 3/8" deep cut for profiling an engine plate in 6061-T6 and use a 80 IPM feed, I've made many mid-plates and engine plates for race cars and street rods, and that is Hanitas recommended feed for that cutter/material combo. It just depends on what you are trying to achieve and for what purpose I guess....

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Post #43 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:47 am

i didnt know we were using 6061..... that 15ipm was for 1018 taking a 1/8(zig zaging down ward) cut with a 1/2cuter...... but if you run 30part.....and you sell them all, then youll have to tear the machine back down (time and money)....... the only thing a drill press has on it is a vice..... and then a router isnt had to come by.....
that V7 cuter would fly through some 6061.....it would push our haas to it top speed though (about 7000 rpms)

is that plate from stinger really 6061?


If you were just going to make a one-off, then you might fashion a jig
why would you use a jig for a one off? a jig hold/locates/and guides the cuter. and a jig is good for production...
along with being told to keep it simple i was also told "why have the guy making 15/hour make the part on a cnc when you could have the guy making 7/hr make the same parts on a drill press or bridgeport."

i also for got the time it take to make the program to run the cnc mill.....have to keep that and the fixture to hold the part. you will have to keep the jig but you wont have to locate it ever time you want to make the part.


now correct me if im wrong but doesnt a small 6 share the same bell housing as a 2.3? or am i wrong.
1978.5 f250xlt ranger custom super-cab 4x4 "superbeast" turbo300/ZF S542/BW1350/np205d dana 44HD/dana60

dec.1978 f150xlt custom 4x4 "six shooter" parts truck for super beast

2004 2.0 dohc 5speed focus DD "toycar"

truck club OHIO MUD SLINGERS

walk softly and carry a big six

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Post #44 by CNC-Dude » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:50 pm

I guess that is why you should never assume anything. I thought you were thinking aluminum plate, and you thought I was thinking steel plate. But since you mentioned steel, you also brought another possibility entirely, and that is laser cutting the plate. And just using some form of fixture you mentioned to drill or ream the critical holes that need to be doweled, the rest will just be clearance holes for the bolts.Most every adapter plate or engine plate i've ever seen has been aluminum. As to what the Stinger brand is , I don't know, but it looks to be aluminum. I have a 2 table pallet changer on my VF-3, so I can leave one pallet open for "G" jobs and playtime,unlike most shops that actually have to work(LOL)! My circumstances dont follow the norm for other shops,or their procedures, because I can pick and choose what I want to do, Im my own boss and don't have any employees, just me. So im going to let the machine do as much of the work as possible....

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Post #45 by Anlushac11 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:39 am

The 2.3L is different as well.

I suggested someone check a 2.3L bell and they said its way off. IIRC the 200 block is alot narrower and noticeably shorter.

The info on Stingers site says the plate is made with 6061

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Post #46 by crash-harris » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:53 pm

I want an adapter plate to allow BBF trannies to blot to the small block pattern.

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TCIC 300ci superbeast
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Post #47 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:02 pm

cnc-dude that a good idea of using the laser cutter....

that cool that you have a pallet changer. and just have one siting there for playing.
i wish we had that. all most of our machines have the same fixture. most of the stuff we make is the same or just a diff. size. you herd of carrlane right? all of there clamp straps, stc , and sac/sdc/sfc we make.

i was just assuming that we were making it out of steel for strength. i really like having other people on here that can talk shop with.

i didnt know you owned and ran you own shop.... so do you just have one machine?
1978.5 f250xlt ranger custom super-cab 4x4 "superbeast" turbo300/ZF S542/BW1350/np205d dana 44HD/dana60

dec.1978 f150xlt custom 4x4 "six shooter" parts truck for super beast

2004 2.0 dohc 5speed focus DD "toycar"

truck club OHIO MUD SLINGERS

walk softly and carry a big six

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TCIC 300ci superbeast
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Post #48 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:05 pm

crash-harris wrote:I want an adapter plate to allow BBF trannies to blot to the small block pattern.


im guessing that theres one out there.
if not most sbf and bbf trans have removable bell housing.[/b]
1978.5 f250xlt ranger custom super-cab 4x4 "superbeast" turbo300/ZF S542/BW1350/np205d dana 44HD/dana60

dec.1978 f150xlt custom 4x4 "six shooter" parts truck for super beast

2004 2.0 dohc 5speed focus DD "toycar"

truck club OHIO MUD SLINGERS

walk softly and carry a big six

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Post #49 by crash-harris » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:24 pm

I want to be able to put a ZF 6-speed behind my 300. That .50:1 2nd OD would be sweet for highway use/mileage.

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Post #50 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:04 pm

TCIC 300ci superbeast wrote:cnc-dude that a good idea of using the laser cutter....

that cool that you have a pallet changer. and just have one siting there for playing.
i wish we had that. all most of our machines have the same fixture. most of the stuff we make is the same or just a diff. size. you herd of carrlane right? all of there clamp straps, stc , and sac/sdc/sfc we make.

i was just assuming that we were making it out of steel for strength. i really like having other people on here that can talk shop with.

i didnt know you owned and ran you own shop.... so do you just have one machine?
Many times,its easy to "overkill" a lot of projects with using a CNC machine, when it would be more cost effective to use other means to make a part. I've heard of carrlane, thats great that you have that customer base and job security. Many shops in my area are laying off guys or closing up for a month or so to see about the economy. Hope your work is steady. Yes, I just have the one machine. I had been lucky, and was catching a lot of the overflow from other shops to stay halfway busy. Maybe we can come up with some ideas for some parts that would help some of these guys on this forum take their engines and hot rods and trucks to a higher level....

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