Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40, mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry, rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad, drag-200stang, THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER, Jimmys61falcon, rjonah, Sooshi, Robert92867, Invectivus


PLEASE TEST ON http://dev.fordsix.com

<<<***PLEASE READ*** New Site Update >>>

T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Moderator: Mod Squad

PhantomAce
Registered User
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:55 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #1 by PhantomAce » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:17 am

I know the T5 conversion has pretty much been beat to death, but I honestly can't find an answer to whether or not what I want to do will work, so here goes...

The car: 1961 Ranchero
Engine: C8 casting 200 block .040 overbored, C9 head machined for 2V direct mount Holley (350 cfm), cam is 274/274 on 110-LC, stock 1.5 adjustable rocker, 1.75/1.50 valves, mild pocket port, head milled to 50cc chambers, block zero-decked.
Rear end: 8" out of a '63 Sprint, 3.00:1 posi, freshly rebuilt.
Tires: 15" with approx. 25-1/2" outer diameter on TorqueThrust D's.

Trannies available:
SROD complete with bell housing and a freshly surfaced flywheel with new ring gear.
T5 from V8 with stock tailshaft, no bellhousing or flywheel (free from family member).
Stock 2.77 with bellhousing and flywheel, needs resurface and ring gear (linkage complete).

OK, here's the dilemma and the questions:
I already had the 9" flywheel that came with the SROD surfaced, and was planning on putting that tranny in. But, that would require that I come up with a cable set-up or hydraulic set-up for the clutch, and both options are expensive. Plus, I would have to pay to get the bellhousing machined to accept the T5 (been quoted $100 for the bellhousing work already).

I've also got the complete 2.77 that we took out of the "parts car", including the pedal hanging (I already went through that assembly, it's ready to install) and the stock Z-bar type clutch linkage set-up (sitting on a shelf currently). I know I'll have to buy a new pilot bushing, disc, pressure plate and throw-out bearing, but I'll need those pieces regardless of which tranny I use, so those parts really shouldn't have much impact on cost.

What I'm wondering is whether or not adapting the T5 is simply a matter of an adapter plate, and then using the stock early 2.77 bell, flywheel and clutch linkage or not?

I know I'll have to get the flywheel from the 2.77 resurfaced and a new ring gear pressed on, and I'll have to come up with a mount/crossmember, but I can't think of anything else that major that would need to be done. Am I correct in that assumption?

I've seen it stated often that an adapter plate is available from Modern Driveline for $160.
Will that work with the small 2.77 bell, or is that 3.03 specific?
Also, given the specs of the engine as listed, is the 3.35 first gear ratio going to be an issue?
I can always put a set of stiffer gears (3.50 or so?) in the 8" later if I have to, but I'd really rather not incur that expense if I can avoid it.

Has anyone on here put a V8 T5 on a 2.77 bell with a moderately warmed over 200 and 3.00:1 +/- gears, and if so, how did it perform?

Any idea on what pilot bushing (part number and manuf) I need for the 2.77's flywheel with a T5, and what clutch components?

Will the stock 2.77 disc pressure plate and throw-out bearing work with this set-up?

Am I better off to just bite the bullet and have the SROD bell machined and eat the extra to go to cable or hydraulic actuation?

I'd really rather have the T5, but I'm just trying to analyze the best way of going about it from a cost and simplicity stand-point right now. Any input greatly appreciated...
:D
Mine: '61 chero, Clifford 200, E0 head (1.75/1.50, 1.6 rocker), 276 Cam, H-W 38/38, CI 6-to-2 header, T5, front disc, Shelby drop, 8" 3.0-posi, buckets/console, 15" TorqThrust's. Still building...
Son's "Parts Car": '61 chero, local built 200, C9 head (1.75/1.50, 1.5 rocker), 274 cam, 2V direct, Clifford 6-to-2 header, C4, B&M QuickSilver, stock rear and susp (for now).

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 2059
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #2 by powerband » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:46 am

A few notes from field research:

I'd really rather have the T5, but I'm just trying to analyze the best way of going about it from a cost and simplicity stand-point right now. Any input greatly appreciated...

The car: 1961 Ranchero
Engine: C8 casting 200 block...:

C8xx casting should fit 3.03 bellhousing from @ '67 up Falcon/Stang/Comet/Maverick six. 3.03 Bell fits the T5 adpter plate available from multiple vendors which fits un-modified ($$) 4cyl or V8 T5.
... But, that would require that I come up with a cable set-up or hydraulic set-up for the clutch, and both options are expensive. :

Early Z-bar clutch pedal setup easily adapts to the 3.03 bell TO setup. I have a '63 and a '61 set up that way.
What I'm wondering is whether or not adapting the T5 is simply a matter of an adapter plate, and then using the stock early 2.77 bell, flywheel and clutch linkage or not?
I've seen it stated often that an adapter plate is available from Modern Driveline for $160.
Will that work with the small 2.77 bell, or is that 3.03 specific?


AFAIK : only Modern Driveline sells an adapter plate 2.77 to T5 . That setup requires MD's T5/S10 tranny, case, cable speedometer gear and shifter modifications.

.... and I'll have to come up with a mount/crossmember, but I can't think of anything else that major that would need to be done. Am I correct in that assumption?

The rear mount/crossmember modification has a few simple upgrade solutions from OEM cantilever spring mount for performance or daily use.
Has anyone on here put a V8 T5 on a 2.77 bell with a moderately warmed over 200 and 3.00:1 +/- gears, and if so, how did it perform?

Not 2.77 setup but warmed over 170 with 3,03 Bell/Plate/V8-T5 works great for daily driver/MPG/mild performance. The OEM 3.50:1 rear is just adequate to be able to use the typical V8-T5 0.68 5th/OD gearing with RPM around 2200 at @ 65MPH. Any higher - 3.00:1 or typical 2.79 rears may not let 5th/OD get much use. My '61 with 3.80:1 gearing works better for performance through all gears but 4cyl T5 would probably be too low 1st gear (2.95 vs 3.25 typical ). For 3.00:1 rear gears, 4cyl T5 may be better choice...

Have Fub

Image<>Image<>Image
" Everything in my garage has a story ..."

PhantomAce
Registered User
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:55 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #3 by PhantomAce » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:30 pm

Powerband:

Thanks for the reply!

I just talked with Paul at Modern Driveline.
Yes, they DO make an adapter to use the 2.77 small bell with T5. The plate is $188.
But, apparently, they also have a fulcrum adapter that can be used with the SROD bell and the 2.77's clutch arm to make the SROD bell work with the stock Z-bar set-up. The fulcrum adapter is $43. And, since I already have a quote to machine the bell to take the T5 for $100, and I already have a fresh flywheel with new ring gear and 2-bolt starter, that may end up being the way to go.

Biggest concern at this point is essentally whether or not I "need" to do the front-shift (S-10 tail basically) conversion.
I think I can get by without it, and just make a shift lever that kicks forward a bit, but Paul doesn't seem to think that is viable.

Still sorting it out... will advise what the result is.
Mine: '61 chero, Clifford 200, E0 head (1.75/1.50, 1.6 rocker), 276 Cam, H-W 38/38, CI 6-to-2 header, T5, front disc, Shelby drop, 8" 3.0-posi, buckets/console, 15" TorqThrust's. Still building...
Son's "Parts Car": '61 chero, local built 200, C9 head (1.75/1.50, 1.5 rocker), 274 cam, 2V direct, Clifford 6-to-2 header, C4, B&M QuickSilver, stock rear and susp (for now).

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 2059
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #4 by powerband » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:59 pm

Whatever way works for you, an Overdrive tranny will let you cruise at modern speeds and the T5 is most accessible.

It was simpler to remove the DS tunnel crossmember for T5 in the 61 and 63 . The T5 shifter box and speedo port are in unfavorable locations for early Falcon/Comet. Others say they were able to leave original crossmember?. Some early 61's are supposed to have different mount.
" Everything in my garage has a story ..."

PhantomAce
Registered User
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:55 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #5 by PhantomAce » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:32 am

Powerband:
Mine actually IS one of the "early" 61 cars, it has absolutely no crossmember for the tranny mount. (More like a late-1960 floor, mine was built Dec-16-1960, the kid's "parts car" was a June-1961 build, it actually seems to have some 1962 stuff...)
I had actually been thinking about taking the crossmember out of a '62 floor I have available to me. Are you saying it would be more of a pain than a help?
If so, then I can build a support structure without the stock crossmember, I had already planned on that before for the SROD anyway. Welding up a crossmember shouldn't be that big of a deal, I've got tools, and I'm learning how to use them...
8)

I think, after talking to ModernDriveline, that the SROD bell with the fulcrum adapter to make it a push clutch (to work with the stock Z-bar) will work out better than messing with the cable or hydraulic clutch set-up. Are you saying you disagree?
Bear in mind, I'm not really looking at "ultimate" performance, in which case the hydraulic clutch would be optimal. I'm basically looking at cost, reliability, simplicity, and trying to build a fun, reliable, daily driver that will let me semi-retire my '97 F-150 4X.

Again, your input is greatly appreciated!
:D

Edit to add:I'm going to go with "Dolphin" Gauges (at least that's the current plan), so all I need at the speedo point is room for a pulse generator to feed the electronic speedo. Is there enough room under there with the T5 and NO stock crossmember for the pulse generator and a couple of wires to fit?
Mine: '61 chero, Clifford 200, E0 head (1.75/1.50, 1.6 rocker), 276 Cam, H-W 38/38, CI 6-to-2 header, T5, front disc, Shelby drop, 8" 3.0-posi, buckets/console, 15" TorqThrust's. Still building...
Son's "Parts Car": '61 chero, local built 200, C9 head (1.75/1.50, 1.5 rocker), 274 cam, 2V direct, Clifford 6-to-2 header, C4, B&M QuickSilver, stock rear and susp (for now).

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 2059
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #6 by powerband » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:30 am

PhantomAce:

An OEM '62 DS hump body crossmember won't be much help with a T5 install. As you said, welding up a new crossmember shouldn't be a big deal.. The Falcon subframe rails readily adapt a strong removable cross frame mount. The "C4 Conversion mount " available from a few vendors can simplify fabbing one.

C4 conversion mount mod

Image>Image



I'm a big fan of the Z-Bar clutch actutator. The'61 250/3.03 bell/Plate/Cobra-Z T5 with Centerforce weighted racing clutch has a '71 Maverick Z-bar modded to fit. The '63 has 170/3.03 bell/Plate/NWC T5. The TO pushrod position and length just needed tweaking to work , hopefulluy Mod Drvln alreddy has for SROD bell. Adjustable TO pushrod makes clutch adjustment much easier...


'61 mod
Image<> Image <>

63 tweaks:
Image <> Image

Have Fub
" Everything in my garage has a story ..."

early ford fan
Registered User
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:02 pm

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #7 by early ford fan » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:02 pm

Edit to add:I'm going to go with "Dolphin" Gauges (at least that's the current plan), so all I need at the speedo point is room for a pulse generator to feed the electronic speedo. Is there enough room under there with the T5 and NO stock crossmember for the pulse generator and a couple of wires to fit?[/quote]
you may get out cheeper since the t5s with speedometer hookups usally bring more money.you may be able to use one of the later ones without a speedo connection.

PhantomAce
Registered User
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:55 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: T5 (from V8) on small 2.77 bell?

Post #8 by PhantomAce » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:32 pm

powerband:
I had one of the conversion mounts, got it from FalconParts.com, it's under the "parts car" project right now attached to a C4.
I planned on either buying another one and adapting it, or just pulling the one we have off the other car for a day and duplicating it myself, with a few changes, so we're on the same page there.
I figure I could probably just build in an adjustable "saddle" of some sort that could shift front/back as needed for alignment (maybe as simple as a wider area with slotted holes?) to receive the rubber mount that goes between it and the tranny.
Will just have to work that out once I have the tranny actually on an engine and under the car so I can get a real world look at it up close.

Footnote:
Something I didn't like about the conversion mount I already bought was that we had to cut the arm that the parking brake equalizer bar connects to off of it and move it down about an inch. As built/received it put the PB cable right up next to the u-joint at the front of the driveshaft, and that really bugged me. But, once we shifted it down a bit it seemed to have sufficient spare breathing room.
I would hate to think what it would be like to be tooling down the road at 45-mph, hit a dip, and suddenly have your PB cable wrap up in the driveshaft and apply the brakes...
I know that's not something I wanted my teenage son to have to deal with, that's for sure.

early ford fan:
Any idea how far the pulse generator sticks out of the case on the T5?
Mine: '61 chero, Clifford 200, E0 head (1.75/1.50, 1.6 rocker), 276 Cam, H-W 38/38, CI 6-to-2 header, T5, front disc, Shelby drop, 8" 3.0-posi, buckets/console, 15" TorqThrust's. Still building...
Son's "Parts Car": '61 chero, local built 200, C9 head (1.75/1.50, 1.5 rocker), 274 cam, 2V direct, Clifford 6-to-2 header, C4, B&M QuickSilver, stock rear and susp (for now).

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests