T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

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tpsettle_66
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T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #1 by tpsettle_66 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:41 pm

Everyone has been a huge help in getting these parts acquired and getting ready for the big swap. I have found a T5 for sale for a decent price, but it came out of a 4cyl and I know from my reading you want to find a world class out of a V8. But, according to this tag number, you can see the image below it is a World Class that was in a 4cyl. He said it has the bearing cap of a WC as well. The link below shows where I see the WC abbreviation next to the description.

http://www.britishv8.org/articles/borg- ... d-tags.htm

1352-162

Question 1: Would it work? I thought I had read that the 4cyl in addition to not being as robust also had a longer input/output shaft?
Question 2: Having 3:55 gears to put in the rear end, the 3.97 1st gear might be too much?


Here is the actual Tag



Thanks again for any input!
Tim
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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #2 by xctasy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:01 am

Use itb ecause you might not get another cheeper. Given that you had a 3.55 axle, and your in Hilly Collorado, I'd guess you'd still need to do an axle gear swap.



Although Its quite the worst intermediate ratios ever, the Fox 2.3's had some crazy idea that a heavy car should be able to amble along in traffic. :mrgreen: So that fits in with modern traffic jams. The rest we can deal with!


1352-162 Ford 1987 Mustang/Capri 2.3 L4 EFI WC X 3.70 Rev3.97 Ist 2.34 2nd 1.48 3rd 1.00 4th 0.79 5th


Normally, with the other V8 WC T5's, a 3.55 to 3.40:1 8 " axle ratio works nice. Not so the 4 cyl T5...it forces you to change to a taller ring and pinion gear.

Factory 8" ratios are 2.79, 3.00, 3.25, 3.40, 3.55, and 3.80, optional Detriot Locker with L between ratio.

Factory 7.25" axle ratios are 4.00, 3.50, 3.20, 2.83, optional Detriot Locker with L between ratio. They are around!

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/mustang ... end-2.html

'66 Ford OZ utility carrier ( originally 4.00 ratio)
'67 Mustang open carrier (2.83 ratio)
'65/66 Equa-lok carrier

Image

Image

In your case, the first three 4cyl -162 ratios are a uniform 18.5% too "drag racy" and "aggressive" for a sixes great low end torque output.


So you'd be better using an 18.5% taller axle ratio, 3.00 to 2.83/2.79:1 one to allow the use of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears.


2.24:1is the overall ratio in 5th with a 2.83 auto 7.25" axle.


Varilux did a 2200 accros the USA cruise with a V8 T5. found 3.25:1 and a 0.675 5th (an overall ratio of 2.19:1), a little too tall.

He found 3.55:1 and 0.675 (an overall 2.40:1 ratio) pretty dang good.


So I'd personally recomend
a 3.00:1 8" ratio
or 2.79:1 8" ratio (2.37 =good , 2.20 = getting too tall)
Or a 2.83":1 stock 7.25" auto ratio

(2.24:1 on the border, but a common std ratio, and you might have access that already, any C4 auto Mustang in the early 4 years years will most likey have it).


69stang_250 dealt with a similar issue, a 4cyl T5 cheap in a very strong low down 250 six cylinder Mustang. In these instances, use the automatic gear ratio. He used the 3.00 axle ratio, but he could of used the 2.47:1 Grande 250 axle the 69's had that year with with those stump pulling first three gears.

After my typical over analysis, both rbohm and rocklord came up with 3.00:1 as well.

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #3 by rocklord » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:11 am

tpsettle_66 wrote:1352-162

Question 1: Would it work? I thought I had read that the 4cyl in addition to not being as robust also had a longer input/output shaft?
Question 2: Having 3:55 gears to put in the rear end, the 3.97 1st gear might be too much?


Thanks again for any input!
Tim


Answer 1: It will work. The 4 cyl T5 has a slightly longer and thinner input shaft than the V8. The 4 cyl input shaft uses a different pilot bushing than the V8. Below is from http://straightsixshootin.weebly.com/t- ... -info.html :

When using a V8 T-5 behind a 144/170/200, then required pilot bushing is the one from a ’67 and later 200 with a manual transmission.

When using a 4 cyl. T-5 behind a 144/170/200, a special roller pilot bearing

is available from Autozone, RockAuto and Napa (SKF 6202-2RSJ).

Do Not Use SKF 6202-RSJ as it only has a bearing seal on one side.


Answer 2: I'm in agreement with xctasy that 3.55 is too high (numerically) for the 4 cyl T5.
Again from http://straightsixshootin.weebly.com/t- ... -info.html :

Another difference between the T-5s is the gear ratios. The 4 cyl. version has a numerically higher 1st and 5th gear than the V8 version. This is important to remember when considering rear end gear choices and tire sizes. Because the 4 cyl. T-5 has a higher 1st gear, a numerically lower rear end can be used in order to keep the car streetable and keep mileage in check. For a 4 cyl T-5, the recommended rears are from 2.80 to 3.25. For a V8 T-5, the recommended rears are from 3.25 to 4.11. These rear recommendations are for reference only.


Get the 4 cyl T5 if it is in decent shape and the price is right. V8 T5s are getting harder to find. The 4 cyl T5 will handle 240lbft of torque, a slightly modified 250.

Hope this helps.
Dan

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #4 by tpsettle_66 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:18 pm

rocklord & xctasy,

Thank you both for the helpful information. I guess I am in a bit of a conundrum. The 3.55's I have is an 8" center section that I had cleaned up and put back together for when I found an 8" housing/axle/drum assembly for the rear to go to 5 lug. My original 7 1/4" has 3.20's in it. From everything you guys have said it sounds like a couple options, let me know if I'm correct and any other opinions are always welcome as everyone on here seems to know way more about this stuff than me as I am learning.

1. Go with this 4cyl for a couple hundred and pay to change the ring and pinion to 3.0 or 2.83 as both of you said.
2. Maybe change the gearing on the T5? Though looking at this I might as well just buy a rebuilt V8 T5 for the $$.
3. Wait to find a V8 one to use with the 3.55's. I haven't gotten to the engine yet, but will be doing some performance enhancements. If $$ allows the aluminum head and things that go along with it, so it might be better to have the V8 one for strength?

Thanks again for everything.
Tim

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #5 by pikesan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:34 pm

I've got a 4 cyl T5 from an 1993 S-10 - part number 1352-216. It is most definitely a WC T5. (contrary to popular belief, such a thing exists)

I've also got the TALL first gear problem. I was super nervous about first gear being too low. My wagon came with the Dagenham 4 speed so it had a 3.5 final drive. The 1st gear in the T5 I have is a 4.03.

The first thing I did was ride in a buddy's C10 truck with a 4 cyl T5 (non WC) and the 3.73 final drive that's pretty standard for trucks. I was VERY surprised how it felt pretty normal. It was on the shorter side, for sure, but certainly did not feel like a "granny gear" or anything like that. It was very usable and made for a normal shift rhythm on a normal accel from stop.

Still curious, I made a "speed in gear" chart in excel to figure out how it'd feel... I input the final drive, 1-5 gear ratios and calculated (with my tires 195-75-14) what speed I'd be running at different rpms. I compared to what it was with the stock Dagenham and smaller tires.
1st gear: stock@3500 - 21.2mph
1st gear: T5@3500 - 18.3mph
Gear ratio change is: 3.5x3.163 = 11.0 vs 3.5x4.03=14.1 - a 27% difference, but that only translates to 3 mph in this case.

After that, things are much more similar. 7% difference in 2nd, 5% in 3rd.

With me? So do you NEED to change? I'm not sure. Would it be a little better? Maybe.. probably. But I also wanted to cruise well in 5th gear. What's your 5th gear ratio? Mine's a .76. So I want to make long hauls at 75-80mph here in AZ.

With 3.50 final drive (195-75-14)
1st gear: T5@3500 - 18.3mph
75mph = 2710 rpm and 80 = 2900

A little fast... now that I'm thinking about it... the 3.2 might be better. Redoing the same numbers above:

With 3.20 final drive (195-75-14)
1st gear: T5@3500 - 20mph
75mph = 2480 rpm and 80 = 2650

With 2.83 final drive (195-75-14)
1st gear: T5@3500 - 22.6mph (almost same as stock)
75mph = 2195 rpm and 80 = 2340

Do you have that 2.83 locker lying around somewhere? :rolflmao:
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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #6 by tpsettle_66 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:37 pm

Do you have that 2.83 locker lying around somewhere?


Don't we wish we had that lying around! Thanks for all the information as well, I am still looking at all of it.

I guess I forgot another aspect, I am not sure how much it matters or if there is a conversion table somewhere that anyone can point to in figuring out the best gearing. I will be running 17" wheels with the brake kit I am using and probably 225 or 235/45's for tires. I don't know if that would change any of the responses so far?

Tim

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #7 by pikesan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:09 pm

tpsettle_66 wrote: I will be running 17" wheels with the brake kit I am using and probably 225 or 235/45's for tires. I don't know if that would change any of the responses so far?


The tires change things, or could. You need the "dynamic rolling radius". Find that online, then compare it to the tiny 14's I'm running. A taller wheel will effectively lower (numerically) your final drive ratio some.
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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #8 by xctasy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:26 pm

pikesan wrote:
tpsettle_66 wrote: I will be running 17" wheels with the brake kit I am using and probably 225 or 235/45's for tires. I don't know if that would change any of the responses so far?


The tires change things, or could. You need the "dynamic rolling radius". Find that online, then compare it to the tiny 14's I'm running. A taller wheel will effectively lower (numerically) your final drive ratio some.


A 25.3" unloaded tire is what I get with 235/45 17'S...185 SR 13's are 25", my BR 78 R14's from a Mustang, 25.3" as well. You probably won't gain a thing on your original factory crossply design size.



pikesan is an acomplished engineer. Feel free to run the 4 cyl gearbox. Cost for changing to a 3.00 or 2.83 or 2.79 axle ratio verses finding a V8 T5, or buying, say, the aftermarket T5Z rebuld kit where you can optimise gearing, its all your call.

Being aware ahead of time gives you any number of options, you can't really make a wrong move on this. :thumbup:

You could, for instance, spend 2500 dollars and get a GearVendors over drive which gives you your stock 3.03 gearbox a 0.78 overdrive and keep your 3.55.. a 2.77 overall gear would be good.


Personally? Well, you can't make a mistake, like said.
I'm a truck driver, I love Eaton split shifts, and for 2.5 k dollars with Gear Vendors, your bullet proof 3 speed 9 bolt Top Loader could become a quasi TKO 6 speed. But that's a lot of upfront cash verses optimization by dribble feed. It might require a custom machining operation as GV only say they service the 4 speed.

With help from vssman, I checked the housing length and gearing two months ago, and it lookes like its not a problem, and would be killer.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=76374&p=589901#p589901
xctasy wrote:
I'm looking at a GearVendors overdrive, a 0.78:1 ratio hike on the stock ratios above, to create a quasi TKO 6 speed.

1st Gear: -----------------> 2.99
2nd Gear (OD Ist): -------> 2.33
3rd Gear: (2nd)-----------> 1.75
4th Gear: (OD 2nd)-------> 1.37
5th Gear: (3rd )----------> 1.00
6th Gear: (OD 3rd)-------> 0.78

It doesn't quite do it as a close ratio TKO 6 Speed, as the first three ratios differ by 11.3 to 4 %, but not far off...


close ratio TKO 6 Speed
1st Gear: 2.66;(in terms of the ratios above, 3.33) vs 2.99 11.3 % to steep (taller geared than ideal)
2nd Gear: 1.78;(in terms of the ratios above, 2.22) vs 2.33 5% too shallow (lower geared than ideal)
3rd Gear: 1.30;(in terms of the ratios above, 1.63) vs 1.75 7.4% too shallow (lower geared than ideal)
4th Gear: 1.00;(in terms of the ratios above, 1.25) vs 1.37 9.6% too shallow (lower geared than ideal)
5th Gear: 0.80;(in terms of the ratios above, 1.00) same
6th Gear: 0.63(in terms of the ratios above, 0.79) almost the same
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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #9 by tpsettle_66 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:47 pm

pikesan is an acomplished engineer. Feel free to run the 4 cyl gearbox. Cost for changing to a 3.00 or 2.83 or 2.79 axle ratio verses finding a V8 T5, or buying, say, the aftermarket T5Z rebuld kit where you can optimise gearing, its all your call.


xctasy, the T5Z rebuild kit might be a great option down the road. In just doing some quick looking, I haven't seen that specific kit anywhere, do you have any quick links with it?

You could, for instance, spend 2500 dollars and get a GearVendors over drive which gives you your stock 3.03 gearbox a 0.78 overdrive and keep your 3.55.. a 2.77 overall gear would be good.


Now this is intriguing! I currently work for Coca-Cola so I have driven our 10/12 speed splits. That would definitely be a one of a kind build! $$ wise I don't know if I could get that by my other contributor, this would probably be her reaction :roll: . I will have to spend some time on their site, I have not been there yet. It would be very cool though!

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #10 by xctasy » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:53 am

Again, you can't make a mistake...whatever option, you can make it work...Rebuild details are listed in this post

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=73629&p=566120#p566120


Other rebuild details viewtopic.php?f=76&t=74040&p=569753#p569753


Go over all 69stang_250 posts, he's in a similar situation...
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #11 by 69stang_250 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:54 am

I will jump in here and give you my opinion.

I have a pretty well built 250 and I am running a *209* tagged 4cyl T5 with 3.00 gears out back.
The question for you is how much do you want to use 5th?
In day to day traffic, town driving or hwy driving at below 60 I will not get into 5th.
It takes a while to gain any speed in 5th unless the rpms are around 2150. Anything below that the engine takes a bit.
On the interstate however, 5th is great and works fine between 70-80.
I will say that with 3.00 gears and that 3.97 first I have a ton of fun and I hurt the feelings of a 90's T/A driver when I was at a traffic light and he wanted to race. Made it through 2 traffic lights with me a car length ahead of him. Turns out we were both going to get our oil changed and he was kinda butt hurt when I showed him the inline 6 under the hood lol!

In the end I will say that if you are driving around hills a lot or want to use 5th more than just on the interstate, I think your 3.55s my workout fine.

Also, the 4 cyl t5 is strong enough for any 200 inline 6 you through at it, unless its boosted and pushing out 350 ft/lbs.
I rebuild mine and installed a steel cluster shaft bearing retainer and installed an after market shifter with shift stops.
From what I understand from talking to the guy that designed those cluster shaft retainers the t5s tend to fail more often than not by 1. Over shifting and braking forks and working the fork rod. 2. Over time the cluster shaft bearing makes the bore in the case oblong. This can cause that cluster shaft to rotate out of center and wears the gears out. The OEM plate holds the bearing race in against the cluster bearing, but does not support the race in its center. I have been told by some transmission guys that the 4 cyl trans was rated at 240ft/lbs, but with a fresh rebuild kit, steel clustered shaft retainer, and a shifter with stops it should be able to handle 300-320 ft/lbs with a moderate amount of aggressive shifting and dumping the clutch on occasion. One other thing that I was told is that even with those mods they do not like really aggressive clutchs. Stage 2 clutch being the limit on a 4 cyl t5.

Some others may be able to chime in, but this is my experience and what I have found in research and talking to long time transmission guys.

Hope this helps man.
69 mustang coupe, 250 .030 over, forged pistons, port & polished CI AL head 54cc's 10.25CR, 280/280 Clay smith cam 1 degree advanced, 1.6 adjustable rockers,
Re curved DSII, MSD AL6, CI Intake, FITech 400HP fuel injection. T5 trans, 8" rearend w/3.00 gears.

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #12 by tpsettle_66 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:09 am

xctasy wrote

Again, you can't make a mistake...whatever option, you can make it work...Rebuild details are listed in this post

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=73629&p=566120#p566120


Other rebuild details viewtopic.php?f=76&t=74040&p=569753#p569753


Xctasy,
Thank you so much for all of the information again. I decided to pick it up and begin to explore options with it. I got it for $180, so I didn't think it was too bad. No visible cracks, seems to look ok, but obviously that is just the outside. The adventure continues...

Tim

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #13 by tpsettle_66 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:31 am

69stang_250 said,

Also, the 4 cyl t5 is strong enough for any 200 inline 6 you through at it, unless its boosted and pushing out 350 ft/lbs.
I rebuild mine and installed a steel cluster shaft bearing retainer and installed an after market shifter with shift stops.
From what I understand from talking to the guy that designed those cluster shaft retainers the t5s tend to fail more often than not by 1. Over shifting and braking forks and working the fork rod. 2. Over time the cluster shaft bearing makes the bore in the case oblong. This can cause that cluster shaft to rotate out of center and wears the gears out. The OEM plate holds the bearing race in against the cluster bearing, but does not support the race in its center. I have been told by some transmission guys that the 4 cyl trans was rated at 240ft/lbs, but with a fresh rebuild kit, steel clustered shaft retainer, and a shifter with stops it should be able to handle 300-320 ft/lbs with a moderate amount of aggressive shifting and dumping the clutch on occasion. One other thing that I was told is that even with those mods they do not like really aggressive clutchs. Stage 2 clutch being the limit on a 4 cyl t5.


This is very helpful, thank you! I ended up picking the transmission up, so more work begins now. I would love to PM you a few other questions if you wouldn't mind? Just let me know. Thanks,

Tim

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Re: T5 Transmission Clarification and Questions

Post #14 by 69stang_250 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:53 am

Yes man you can PM me any questions you have and I will be glad to help.
69 mustang coupe, 250 .030 over, forged pistons, port & polished CI AL head 54cc's 10.25CR, 280/280 Clay smith cam 1 degree advanced, 1.6 adjustable rockers,
Re curved DSII, MSD AL6, CI Intake, FITech 400HP fuel injection. T5 trans, 8" rearend w/3.00 gears.

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