Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

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lavron
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Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

Post #1 by lavron » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:43 am

Just a quick question does anyone know if the bolt pattern on a Mustang 3.8L V6 crank is the same as a 250 crank?

I can't seem to find this info anywhere or I don't know the proper search terms.

I am wanting to do a T5 swap and I already have a complete '98 T5 from a 3.8L V6 and I am looking for a 164 tooth zero balance flywheel, I know the 300 flywheel will fit but if I could keep all the parts semi-matching I would have a more likely chance that the all the rest of the parts would work together. I believe from around 2002 all the 3.8L were zero balance.

I am doing a low budget build the 300 and the 3.8L flywheels are about the same price so that is not much of a consideration.

I have this info from RockAuto but can't determine what all the numbers are;

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See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

Post #2 by powerband » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:04 am

... I'm probably just mis-informed but not aware of any conversions successfully using the 300 164 tooth FW bellhouse in a Falcon/Comet. I thought their is no suitable 164T bell that works in early cars ?.

typical swap uses of available 157 T neutral balance FW with early or Fox era small block V8 Ford bellhouse / clutch / linkage . Bellhouse typically early mechanical pedal or Fox cable clutch bell' . Simple adapter plates mate T5 with any "Toploader/T10" bell house.

157 T FW :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-302-351W-L ... 8C&vxp=mtr

a common early pushrod 157T bellhouse is Ford # C5DA, C5AA is the 164 T (afaik)

The T5 Overdrive swap with complementary rear gears yields a gear for every condition from sustained Interstate cruise speeds to rowing through the gears, quickly carving mountain backroads... .The driver gets better access to the anvil strong 250's torquey but RPM limited powerband ..

have fun

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Re: Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

Post #3 by lavron » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:21 pm

powerband wrote:... I'm probably just mis-informed but not aware of any conversions successfully using the 300 164 tooth FW bellhouse in a Falcon/Comet. I thought their is no suitable 164T bell that works in early cars ?.


What I understand is the 3.8L bell has a SBF bolt pattern, where-in you can bolt the 6 cylinder transmission, bell and all onto a 5.0 car by using 164 tooth flywheel from a 351W but I really am not sure of the specs.

Sometime in the next week or so I will see if they will all bolt together and hold off on a flywheel purchase until I confirm everything fits or not.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

Post #4 by lavron » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:57 am

Certainly I am not too familiar with any of the bent engines and this is the first 250 I have had, so just trying to glean what information I can from the internet and smarter people than me :roll:

Initially I was going to swap everything over to V8 stuff (and I may still) but when I went shopping the prices were all a bit steep for my budget build (I really thought SBF stuff would be super common and cheap) just searching around for a bell I found the more common prices to be in the neighborhood of $200 with shipping and for a zero balance flywheel the cheapest I found was $120 or so. I have the T5 already and I converted the front shaft to the shorter V8 style but can switch it back. I then discovered that the 3.8L bell housing had a 351W bolt pattern, which, if I am not mistaken, is the same as the 302 with the exception of the starter location because the 351W uses a 164 tooth flywheel just like the 3.8L V6 (I read the 3.8L was a 351W with 2 cylinders lopped off) which, coincidently, is the same as a 300 cid I6, which is a zero balance flywheel for around $50, the 3.8L bell is also less popular and I picked one up for $60 delivered.

This is an article showing the difference between 351W and regular SBF

http://www.mustangtek.com/sidebyside/SmallblockFordflywheelsize.html

The reason I want to check and see if a 3.8L V6 flywheel bolt pattern is the same as the 250-300-302 is so I know I can just get a 3.8L clutch and know it will fit and everything from the bell back would be '98 3.8L when buying replacement parts in the future, the 300 flywheel may have the correct holes to bolt the Mustang clutch to it (maybe the same) but the other way I would know it would fit.

So if no one has been successful doing a setup like this I would like to know what causes it to not work? I know I may have some issue with header clearance that hopefully can be rectified.

Thanks for any help'

Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: Will 3.8L V6 Flywheel Bolt to 250 Crank?

Post #5 by xctasy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:42 am

lavron wrote:(I read the 3.8L was a 351W with 2 cylinders lopped off)
.

It shares no production line tooling or design with


1. any other Ford V8 engine, or


2. any other makers V6 engine. The Buick thing is just an observation, as the whole engine is layed out exactly the same spatially, but differs in every measurement

Its 100% unique. Ford made money by deciding to make it fit other V8 parts inventory, and have it cast in the Essex plant in Ontario, Canada.

Its 9.206" deck height is Cleveland 351 style, but there is not one shred of v8 iron that was ever made that the 3.8 (and later 3.9 and 4.2 V6) design was based on.

Proof?

The Essex 90 degree V6 with even fire, 30 degree offset crank pins has no offset conrod, the litmus test for if a 90 degree V6 is a cut down 90 degree V8.

Ford got mileage out a of the totally unique Ontario, Canada Essex plant.

Ford made three versions of cylinder blocks based off of one casting.

1. A standard RWD 3.8, then a host of Front drive 3.8 and different capacity RWD/4WD 3.9/4.2 Essex 90's (still similar to Job One, but mounts varied, newly added balance shafts varied, but its basically the same)
2. its revised Supercharged 1989-1994 MN12, block heaver, different crank, a host of upgrades (2nd version)

3. then in 1986 to 1995, a very special, SVO 4.5 liter, 272 cubic inch engine matched to SVO E380 and J 380 cylinder head SVO style block with repitched 4.48" bore centers. Produced in the same plant!

Image

The engine above uses a 302 Thick Film Ignition system with a stock six cylinder cap, and each cylinder is 287 thou further apart, 300 Ford style.

Its normally 4.193" bore spacing engine with a half cylinder plus 110 thou left to right bank offset so the 30 degree offset crank doesn't create offset conrods. This 110 thou offset means its average bore spacings are in fact the same as the BOP 215/300/345, Rover 3500/3.9/4.6, and Buick V6's.


Ford benchmarked that engine, and used it as its target for weight, cost and performance.


All cut down V8's that are even fire have the dreaded shared conrod crank flange like this.

Image


The ESSEX 90 and SVO's do to, but the rods are not offset between the wrist pins and gudgeon pins.

The small block Ford was 4.375" in all types, 1954-1962 Y block, 1962-2003 Windsor, 1970-1983 Cleveland, 1975- 1983 Modifieds and 1970-1983 400's...none related to the Essex 90 at all.

The Essex 90 uses a lot of other Ford parts....almost the same as Windsor 351W con rod sizes with the big ends, and the 351 W 28 oz external unbalance flexplate, the 255 V8 catalystic converter header down pipes, and the SBF 6 bolt crank pattern.


Doing this allowed Ford to come close to copying a lot of the BOP V8 215/ Buick V6 196/225/231/3.8 liter bore spacings,

a similar front mounted oil pump and front mounted distributor, but its block is custom made to splice the left and right bank to remove the even fire crank flange between the conrods, a nasty feature of all SBC 200/229/262 V6's and GM 3800 and Buick 3.0/3300 and 231's.

The common hard dimensions of the block height allows the use of of the 5.8 conrods, and then the use of the 351W 28 oz unbalance 164 teeth flexplate and AOD, or the 164 flexplate and C5 auto. The 3.8 was dropped from the Mustang in 1987, and when it returnied in 1994, it got an optional T5 manual with 157 teeth flywheel and either 28 or 39 oz external unbalance.

Image

In 1986, Ford was able to repitch the bore spacings and make a visually similar tall deck Essex 90 V6 with Ford 300 Big Six bore spacings, taller 9.5" racing block. Fords versistility with block castings ensured the bore spacings could be repitched without too much cost, just like how the the SVO WC 351 Cleveland engines could be made on the Windsor production line.

The one year only E8ZM 6049 E380 canted valve heads (298 in, 227 ex flow @ 600. 2.125/1.710 valves) got replaced with the non canted E9ZM 6049 J380 heads....Fords race SVO and production Essex 90 development knew no boundaires, it was an exceptionally versitile "clean sheet" design that used a lot of production Ford parts.
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