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Fluid leaking from E40D

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Newferd
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Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #1 by Newferd » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:07 pm

Looking to buy a 95 E150 van. The guy said on his way to work, he was going up a hill, (that has passing lanes) He glanced in his rear view mirror and saw "smoke" behind his rig. He said he immediately pulled over and called a tow truck. The van has been setting for at least a year by my guess.
He told me he thought that it "blew" the rear main seal and wasn't that deep mechanically to do the fix himself. That's why the rig has been setting. Now he wants to sell it to me relatively cheap. $500. He said mainly that's because the tires are almost new. Odometer says 140ish.
I looked at the van yesterday. He started it and it came to life. I tiny bit shaky for 30 seconds, then smoothed out. WE had the engine cover off. Here's what I saw.
#1 Tiny bit of smoke coming from the rear end of what I believe is the exhaust recirculation system. Not at the fitting where it screws into the head, but at the end of the rail that the last tube connects to.
#2 A couple inches in front of the passenger side motor mount there is what might possibly be a hairline crack. Below the crack it seems to be slightly rust colored. Above the area, it still has some paint and on it.....and the usual dirt an oil film. No water appeared even with the engine warmed up. For all I know it weeped a tad and self sealed years ago.
#3 looking under the rig, it wasn't leaking anything initially. We stretched a tarp on the ground as a precaution. After a few minutes we saw a drizzle coming from the dust cover. Looked like tranny fluid.
The good news is it isn't the rear main seal.
The bad news is.............. I'm not sure what might cause the tranny to leak a small drizzle of fluid. A front transmission seal typically would only drip, right? .....well, unless it popped out.
5 minutes or so of idling ad there's probably a half a cup of fluid on the tarp.

#5 After warmup and looking for leaks, he put it in drive. No movement. He put it into each gear and zero movement, not even an engine speed change.
I pulled the dip stick and there was no fluid showing.

#6 Would pulling the dust cover/flex plate cover show me anything?

OK, I know it's along read, but thought it best to tell the entire story so you guys can get a better picture of what's going on.
The guy is a fellow flooring installer like me. Nice guy and I trust what he told me.

mustang6
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #2 by mustang6 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am

Sounds like the front seal failed badly or maybe the front pump housing or torque converter itself has cracked?
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #3 by Newferd » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm

I went over yesterday and added a couple quarts of fluid, then we started it up. I removed the rubber plug from the tranny so the fluid would drain in a more controllable manner. I put a 5 qt graduated plastic pain pail under it and when we fired it up, it started dripping/drizzling within a few seconds. In 3 to 4 minutes of idling, it lost a quart. During that time, I had him put it in and out of gear a few times and it did go into gear normally as far as I can tell.
Before I left, I added another two quarts and had him quickly move the van forwards 8 feet then backwards again so the van was parked in a better position for accessing the underside. Before moving it, the van set low in a rut and crawling under it was really difficult.
I live 3 miles away from this fella and I'm rigging up a catch container so maybe I can drive it home to where I can work on it. I might have to stop a time or two on the way home to add more fluid or empty the container, but by driving it, I'll know if it's shifting OK.

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bubba22349
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:46 pm

Yes, a couple of the most likely causes are the front torque converter seal, the rear seal, or the pan gasket. A pan gasket and filter would be easiest to replace if you can get under enough it to see if it's leaking. When its not running dose it happen to start leaking as soon as you put any fresh fuild in it? In a that case then the pan gasket is the first thing to check. If the front seal is damaged the front pump bushing and or torque converter hub is also likely wornout. If the trans still works pulling it out to do the repair probably wouldn't take very much time to get it back to a useable truck. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #5 by Newferd » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:43 am

Gasket is dry. The fluid is running out forward of the pan. There is a rubber plug in the casting in front of the pan. I removed the plug and all of the fluid drains from that access/drain/inspection hole.
The van moved forward just fine after I added 2 quarts of fluid.
My concern is this. If the guy was driving up a hill with passing lanes and looked in the rear view mirror and saw "smoke" (or possibly fluid spewing onto the hot exhaust)
What kind of damage might have occurred? It's one issue if it was the rear main seal as he initially suspected.
It's a totally different thing if the smoke he saw was from fluid splattering on the exhaust pipe and muffler, or the transmission getting so hot ..........that it actually smoked.
Can transmission fluid from an e40d transmission get sucked into the intake. I read that they don't have vacuum modulators.

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MechRick
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #6 by MechRick » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:36 pm

Most likely the front pump bushing galled, stuck to the torque converter and then spun in the pump housing. It's an E4OD thing. Usually happens under load.

If so, it will need a front pump, and possibly a torque converter. A new/reman pump will have the bushing staked so it can't spin.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #7 by Newferd » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:30 pm

There are no metallic particles floating around in the quart of fluid that drained out into my catch bucket. The transmission engaged normally and the van moved forwards and backwards. No jerky movements. There were no strange sounds coming from the transmission. It seemed perfectly normal other than the leaking.

mustang6
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #8 by mustang6 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:12 am

I think MechRick gave you the most likely answer right there.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #9 by Newferd » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:22 pm

What's the difficulty level of removing the pump and removing the bushing? Any other parts or specialty tools needed?
As far as mechanical abilities, I do all the work on my vehicles and I've done two SBC engine rebuilds. I've never messed with automatic trannys other than replacing the filters.
That bushing thing sounds pretty common in these trannys. When the bushing spins, doesn't that damage the pump housing or whatever it is pressed into?

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MechRick
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #10 by MechRick » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:09 pm

When the bushing spins, it ruins the aluminum pump housing.

Any good transmission parts supplier will have reman pumps, torque converters and seals. There is a rubber 'O' ring on the outside of the pump, and a paper gasket between the pump and transmission. You'll have to stand the trans upright, remove the pan and filter, and use slide hammers to pop the pump out. Lube everything up with petroleum jelly to hold seals in place, going back together.

Make sure the new/reman pump halves are aligned properly (the pump assy is a two-piece casting), or it will fight you going in. If they are not, a big hose clamp (the type used for furnace ducts) can be used to align them once the bolts are loosened.

Inspect the torque converter hub for galling. If the surface is smooth it may be able to be reused.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Newferd
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:18 am

Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #11 by Newferd » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:59 pm

I talked to the owner of a local transmission shop that's been here for a couple decades. I described the problem as I've done here and he said.......... it's the seal. I described again my concerns but this time about the bushing. He replied, it's the seal, and he said it's a common issue on this transmission.
I guess all I can do is cross my fingers. He said it would cost $250. I guess it my turn to play search and destroy.
Financially, I wasn't prepared to buy the van in the first place even tho it's a good deal. Title transfer is $96 and registration is $112. Not knowing the condition of the bushing or torque converter shaft makes this a total crap shoot for me. Worst case scenario............... I got 4 almost new tires for my old Chevy van.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #12 by Newferd » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:32 pm

It's been a few weeks since my last comment, so here's an update.
I have the van up on jack stands now and I pressure washed the underside of the van so I can see what I purchased.
Pressure washed and cleaned the engine and transmission to make removal more pleasant. A friend had a transmission jack. after using it, I cannot imagine using a hydraulic floor jack.
So here's what I got. Transmission is down, and like some have mentioned, the front pump bushing moved forward against the seal. ......an I mean right against it.
One transmission guy here said he's never seen that......... suggested a rebuilt front pump for $375 or he said he could find good used one for $175. From everyone I know, he's a very well respected and trustable guy.

Next shop said he could install a new bushing and that he'd stake it in and also use Locktite. He didn't mention reaming and installing an oversized bushing. He absolutely insisted that I need a new converter. I had the converter with me for him to inspect, ....but he woudln't even look at it to see if the flange looked scored or distorted. He said he's learned the hard way from previous experiences....... so he said a new converter is a must do.

I drained the converter before pulling the tranny. There was no metallic particles in the fluid. Local and an out of town wrecking yards don't have a transmission for this year and model. I guess I'm in a searching and waiting period right now. :roll:

This is a 95 e150 with a 300 straight six.
"Couple" of questions now. :wink:
Is a new torque converter mandatory because of the shifted pump bushing? To me, the converter surface looks fine.

Where does the fluid drain to from the front of the bushing when it's in it's seated position? ...straight back into the pan?

Lastly (for now), how many configurations are there for this transmission's bell housing. I saw a '94 van at the wrecking yard and the transmission looked the same (from the top side) .....but the wrecking yard people said it wouldn't fit. That van had a V6 or V8.
Is a straight six bell housing the only one that will work for me? I'm betting a 95 replacement would be best because it has all of the previous or latest fixes before it's retirement.

.............new bushing installed correctly?
..........new pump?
.......new torque converter too?
...better off with a complete bone yard transmission?
My funds are zip, so I'm looking for the best option.

Thanks for anything ya got..... even transmission links if you have any.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #13 by Newferd » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:46 pm

I have one more transmission guy to talk to. He's out of town but will be back on the 22n'd. He's considered very good. He's also just a mile away from me. I can't work on it next week anyway, so I'll wait for him.

Newferd
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Re: Fluid leaking from E40D

Post #14 by Newferd » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 am

I totally forgot to mention something which may be related to this failure. The previous owner and a friend installed a freeze plug right behind the flex plate. They forgot to fully tighten the bell housing bolts. I discovered that as I was preparing to remove the transmission. The night before I started, I decided to crack loose a lot of bolts just to see if any needed some liquid help. Cross member, rear transmission mount and bellhousing nuts and bolts. None of the bellhousing bolts were anywhere near what anyone would consider "tight" A little tug with my 3/8 drive socket loosened all of them. One lower bolt could probably have been loosened with a on a socket on a screwdriver handle.
Sorry to ramble so much, just a lot happened since I acquired the rig.

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