Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

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200ci66
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Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #1 by 200ci66 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:05 pm

Hello, I am having somewhat of an issue. I've swapped disc brakes on the front (Granada), swapped rear ends (all new drum parts), along with all new lines, master cylinder, proportioning valve. Everything. After a lot of bleeding I have no solid pedal but if you rapidly pump the pedal it gets very hard. It's locking up the drums/calipers when this is done. However one push causes it to go to the floor. I would say misadjusted brakes in the back, but pumping the pedal wouldn't create pressure if this were the case. I bench bled the master cylinder with the kit pushed in the rod about 20 times. Bled each wheel in sequence about 5 different times around the car, and now I get nothing but solid streams. Am I missing anything? Going to try a vacuum bleeder tomorrow. No lines leak to my knowledge either.
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #2 by redxm » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:08 pm

Pre-load on the master cyl perhaps?
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #3 by 200ci66 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:11 pm

What do you mean?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:54 am

You could be right about the rear drum brakes being part of the problem. In order to be able to bled and operate the brake system the shoes should be adjusted out until they are touching or very close to it. Otherwse the master can't supply enough fuild to move the Pistons far enough to take up the extra clearance. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #5 by jamyers » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:09 pm

Preload on the Master Cylinder refers to the linkage not releasing the Master Cylinder all the way, but keeping it pushed in a tiny bit.

I'm betting you need to pull the master cylinder and carefully and obsessively bench bleed it again. 99% of bleeding problems are in the MC. Need to get ALL the air out of it, no matter how many times you push on the plunger. You might be able to get away with leaving it in the car and unhooking the brake lines, but I like to do it on a bench where I can tilt it left/right/fore/aft a bit and be ABSOLUTELY SURE all the tiny air bubbles are OUT of the MC.
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #6 by 200ci66 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:03 pm

Could an incorrectly adjusted pushrod be the cause too?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:39 pm

Absolutely there is a cam like adjustment on the push Rod bolt (manual brakes) just loosen the nut first and turn the bolt. If it has a power brake booster its adjusted by the booster Rod (inside) before the install of master. To test it you need have about a min of 1/16 to 1/8 inch of play (clearance) before the push Rod touches and starts pushing the master cylinders Piston in or the brakes drag, too much clearance and pedal goes to close to the floor before it starts pushing the piston. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #8 by 200ci66 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:45 pm

Adjusted the rear drums extremely tight, maybe even too tight for driving but I can always back them off. On the pushrod, it was about 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch off from the old one. Doesn't seem like a big difference by eye but I assume this is a HUGE difference.. Don't know why I didn't do this the first time. Bench bled the MC again while I had it out. Had bubbles on the first push, none after that so and I pushed about 15 times.

Unfortunately I have no helper or vacuum bleeder we will see tomorrow.

Anyone want to put a bet down that it was the pushrod?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #9 by bubba22349 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:10 pm

Yeah I won't bet against you that's a lot of difference and probally the real cause for Pedel going down to close to the floor. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #10 by 200ci66 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:21 pm

Bled everything again with the new pushrod length. Now have more of a pedal than I did before, but it still sinks low. One push does lock up all four wheels but I don't like how it doesn't feel firm. I had to bleed the rear left cylinder a lot to get a solid stream out of it - keep bleeding this and hope for the best? How much should I have to bleed? I've used a quart of fluid since I started this..
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:58 pm

Somtimes it's harder to do them right without a power bleeder and it takes quite a bit more fluid too a quart without using one isn't so bad. If the lines were cracked open again at the master, or you run the master dry before refilling it again, then it could of introduced some more air into the top of brake system and this will take time to work it all back out. A good way to do it is with a clean glass jar with some brake fluid in the bottom run a tight fitting rubber hose (vacuum line) from blender valve fitting end and into the bottom of the jar so it's under the brake fluid this stops any air from being drawn back into the system again through the bleeder valve. And you can also easily see the air bubbles in the fluid too. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #12 by 200ci66 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:03 pm

Well, then I'll buy another quart and go from there. If I'm pretty confident the front is bled can I just bleed the back or should I still go in order?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:47 pm

If you have a duel master system yes you can do the front or back separate if you want. It's the best practice though to always start with the farthest cylinder away from the master cylinder. Then the next one and work your way around to the closest one. Good luck it sounds like your getting real close now. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #14 by 200ci66 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:18 am

At work thinking about different possibilities before I attemp this tonight - I appreciate your responses.

Is it a possibility that the metal brake line from the block to the drivers side wheel cylinder is clogged? It is the only line I didn't replace because it appeared to be in good shape. What about the block/hose on the rear end? I reused the block from my old rear end that I replaced 2-3 years ago. If there's even a slight possibility I'll buy these parts on the way home before I bleed it tonight.

Final question - if I cannot get the rear to bleed, can I put a plug in the rear port on the master cylinder and drive it somewhere with only front brakes? [i have a gm style proportioning valve] I'm anxious to get this car on the road and I'm willing to let someone else fix it I don't want to beat my head on this for weeks.. Like I said the pedal has slight pressure about 2 inches down but still goes to the floor. After pumping three times it raises about 2 inches off the floor.
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #15 by bubba22349 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:36 am

200ci66 wrote:At work thinking about different possibilities before I attemp this tonight - I appreciate your responses.

Is it a possibility that the metal brake line from the block to the drivers side wheel cylinder is clogged? It is the only line I didn't replace because it appeared to be in good shape. What about the block/hose on the rear end? I reused the block from my old rear end that I replaced 2-3 years ago. If there's even a slight possibility I'll buy these parts on the way home before I bleed it tonight.

Final question - if I cannot get the rear to bleed, can I put a plug in the rear port on the master cylinder and drive it somewhere with only front brakes? [i have a gm style proportioning valve] I'm anxious to get this car on the road and I'm willing to let someone else fix it I don't want to beat my head on this for weeks.. Like I said the pedal has slight pressure about 2 inches down but still goes to the floor. After pumping three times it raises about 2 inches off the floor.


Yes i guess it could be possible and that may depend on the type conditions in your area, I haven't run into that much in my area except in the case of just some sludge or mud just plugging them up and usually it's easy enough to clean out, but have heard of old brake lines rusting up from the inside on old cars that sat unused for many years. If I see any bad rusting on the outside of a brake line then it gets replaced as a safety measure. If you have some compressed air you could try blowing through the lines and the blocks and that would tell you right away if it's plugged up

I start at the top when doing a compleate brake job with reassembly of brake parts so the Master Cylinder gets a good bench bleed first then its installed and filled I then use it to flush out and all the brake lines with a few pumps until I see clean brake fluid coming out, then start installing each of the wheels brake parts. The blocks being made of brass almost never seem to go bad I wash them out and reuse them and rarely have a problem when inspecting them as long as all the ports threads and or the internal seats (flared seats) haven't been damaged if they are you will see where it leaks from.

On rubber lines if I see any exterior cracking, deterioration, or damage to the rubber cover, they will get replaced, there are also some cases were they can derogate on the inside and can cause plugging. If the rubber lines are only a couple years old though I would think it should still be good as they can last many years.

There is one more posability and in my experience it's very rare, but if the proportioning valve gets closed and happens to stick to one side or the other (from some grit or grime) then by its design you are only going to have front or rear brakes. The internal valve needs to be centered for the duel master system to work correctly so you might check that out.

On plugging the rear brakes the front brakes do roughly 70 to 75 % of the braking and I don't know about even trying to drive it if the pedal goes to the floor you would have to make that call if it would be safe or not. Personally I won't even drive a car or truck with bad tires or questionable brakes until it get fixed or it will set until it is repaired.

One question for you when you do get Pedal presure dose it stay solid or when holding and then applying more presure pushing on the brake pedal dose it start dropping to the floor? Could you give me a description and year of the brake master cylinder ant other non stock parts you installed besides the Granada disks? There maybe a problem with compatibility of all the parts. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #16 by pikesan » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:37 pm

I'm having a very similar problem.
Put in the Geo/Suzuki power brake M/C. Have Wilwood discs in front and stock drums in rear. Wilwood proportioning valve is installed.
I bench bled (to death I thought) then just this weekend tried adjusting the rear shoes. One side was kinda loose... still nothing! On the first couple pumps of the pedal, it easily goes all the way to the floor. After that, it gets reasonably firm, but not as good as I'd like. (BTW, the engine's not fired, so there's no vacuum assist. This is all happening in my garage)

I don't need a residual pressure valve with the Geo setup do I? Or with the proportioning valve?

Thanks for the help!
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #17 by bubba22349 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:49 pm

pikesan wrote:I'm having a very similar problem.
Put in the Geo/Suzuki power brake M/C. Have Wilwood discs in front and stock drums in rear. Wilwood proportioning valve is installed.
I bench bled (to death I thought) then just this weekend tried adjusting the rear shoes. One side was kinda loose... still nothing! On the first couple pumps of the pedal, it easily goes all the way to the floor. After that, it gets reasonably firm, but not as good as I'd like. (BTW, the engine's not fired, so there's no vacuum assist. This is all happening in my garage)

I don't need a residual pressure valve with the Geo setup do I? Or with the proportioning valve?

Thanks for the help!
pikesan


So far haven't worked on one and I haven't looked up the specifics on the Geo so don't know all the details of that master cylinder or about the factory brake system parts that they were designed for. But that said many OEM factory master cylinders though will have an internal residual pressure valve. So it becomes IMORTANT to pick the right type master cylinder for each application i.e. A Disk / Drum, Drum / Drum or Disk / Disk. This is for two main reasons the biggest is for the fluid capacity it needs to be much larger for use with the disk brake calipers, an external fluid tank could be added and some of these master cylinders are already designed for them. Second reason is for the right rating of internal residual presure valves though you could remove them and just use the external type.

Residual valves for disk brakes are 2 psi and are 10 psi for the drum brakes if you use the external type residue pressure valve make sure you remove the internal ones if the master has them. You absolutely need residue pressure valves if the master cylinder is mounted at the same height or below the disk calipers or wheel cylinders but its still a very good idea to have them in any brake system because as soon as you are going up a hill you can loose prime and or might get air into the system fuild is low in the resivor tank.

Factory or OEM proportioning valves serve two purposes as a safety devise in the event of a front or rear brake system leak it moves and blocks off the leaking side so that you will still have brakes at the other two wheels. It's other function is to balance the front to rear brake bias so there Is more even braking without locking the rear wheels. An aftermarket proportioning valve is only used to balance the front to rear brake bias usually by varying the pressure to the rear brakes so they don't lock up to soon they can be used with a single or duel type master cylinder. Sorry not being much help you if you having pictures of your system parts, their year, and the install maybe could see a problem. I will see if I can look the master specs to be more specific.

Edited
Ok was able to look up some of the specs on those Geo's so first am assuming that you have master cylinder push Rod adjusted properly (set to about 1/16 to 1/8 inch) of play before it starts pushing the piston. Second I think you are going to need a 10 PSI residual presure valve installed somewhere in the line from master cylinder going to the rear brakes and then re bleed the brakes again and you should be golden! Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #18 by B RON CO » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:18 pm

Hi, I didn't carerfully follow your whole story but this may help. Sometimes when changing master cylinder the piston depth or something is a little different. I like to compare the parts for any surprises. On a manual brake system it is easy enough to swing the brake pedal and see if there is excessive travel before the rod pushes the piston. In this case I have dropped in a small 1/4 drive socket the fill the space. If you try to bolt up the master and the push rod starts to push the piston the push rod needs to be shortened. If you have power brakes your options may be different. I prefer a Mighty Vac Silverline vacuum pump when I need to bleed brakes alone. If the fluid is nice and fresh it goes right back in the master cylinder. I wonder if your proportioning valve is stuck one way or another. If it is not centered the brake warning light will be on if you have one. To center it you need to give the pedal a kind of aggressive push with the right rear or right front bleeder screw open. This is not always a 50/50 choice. Sometimes something tells me to try the front or rear first. If I have someone to help me bleed you need to use gentle up and down at all times. Gently pump 3 or 4 times than hold then loosen then tighten . Give the bubbles a chance to move. No hurry. Make sure the master stays full. More often than not on a major overhaul I'll re bleed next weekend for that final touch. Good luck
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #19 by pikesan » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:29 pm

B RON CO and Bubba,
First off, thanks for taking the time. The community of hot rodders, racers and just general car dudes is one of the best around. It's a great feeling to ask a question and for no other reason than generosity get great help. Thanks guys.

I have this proportioning valve and MC installed:
Image
Image

I have Wilwood front disks for 4 lug Ford. Image

Tried to hide as much as I could during install..

As far as I can tell, everything is installed correctly. (I'm kinda laughing just typing that!)

Questions:
1) Are some Geo/Suzuki M/C's for disk/drum or disk/disk? I thought they were all disk/drum?
2) If the push rod is slightly pushing the piston, what problem will that cause (see laughing above... I think it's OK but I'm gonna check)
3) How do I check for internal residual pressure valves?
4) You're sure I need residual pressure valve (10psi) if I have a disk/drum M/C? I guess it can't hurt?
5) Since I may have to inspect the M/C (remove and make a damn mess with that slimy brake fluid! :bang: ) should I just replace it? They're relatively cheap.

BTW, here's the current status!
Image

Getting there!!
See all my cars here: Pikesan's Garage What's in your garage?

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #20 by B RON CO » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:56 pm

The loops going up high to the proportioning valve concern me a lot. Bubbles go up. Residual Pressure Valves are required when the master is under the floor like on very old stuff. RVP 10 psi is for the rear, Rvp 2 psi front. I haven't needed them on any late model firewall mount master. I'm sure Wilwood could help with that.
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #21 by 200ci66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:28 pm

Update - I took my car to school so I would be around people who wouldn't mind bleeding this a lot. After bleeding all 4 wheels 3 times, we found that one of the rear line fittings was leaking SO slightly (benefits to a lift as opposed to the ground). Tightened it up. As soon as I tightened it up, I had NO fluid going to back brakes. I did before I did this. Now I have none whatsoever, like the porportioing valve went bad on me. I had half and half, now I literally have no back brakes but my front brakes work fantastic there's fluid coming out when you unhook the line from the master cylinders rear port, but when unhooking the line after the proportioning valve there is nothing. The problem is the valve.. It now stops better than it did with 4 drums, but I literally have no back brakes. Could this valve be stuck? Can it be reset? Something went back inside it and blocked it? I can drive my car now but I have a lot of money in these brakes and it would be nice if all 4 wheels worked lol...
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #22 by B RON CO » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:15 pm

I posted about centering the proportioning valve before. I would be very concerned about running the brake lines so high and mounting the proportioning valve so high. That stuff is mounted under the master for a reason. Lets assume the brakes are bleeding out fine and it is possible to safely use this system as installed. What I would do is try to center the proportioning valve. I would have someone pump up the pedal a few times and than open the left rear bleeder screw (because this is closest to the proportioning valve) this is the normal way for me. By the way your photo shows the brake light switch not connected, if that was part of your system the brake light would be on, I wrote about that in the other post. I might try to bleed from the back fluid outlet on the proportioning valve. Since there is no bleeding screw I would remove the brake line and after your helper steps on the pedal you need to put your finger tightly over the hole. You may have to do this a couple of times. When the fluid does come out nice and strong you can put the brake line back in place and check your pedal. I think you will have to bleed the rears again, right rear first, left rear next. The master cylinder is probably OK. Just hope you never run low on brake fluid. There is another method of bleeding just using gravity. If I change a caliper for example I get everything installed, fill the master, open the bleeder screw and just wait for the brake fluid to drip out. You still have to bleed them but at least you see the fluid is getting there. By the way never use old brake fluid hat has been sitting around. Unless you know it is fresh get rid of it.
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:42 pm

pikesan wrote:B RON CO and Bubba,
First off, thanks for taking the time. The community of hot rodders, racers and just general car dudes is one of the best around. It's a great feeling to ask a question and for no other reason than generosity get great help. Thanks guys.

I have this proportioning valve and MC installed:
Image
Image

I have Wilwood front disks for 4 lug Ford. Image

Tried to hide as much as I could during install..

As far as I can tell, everything is installed correctly. (I'm kinda laughing just typing that!)

Questions:
1) Are some Geo/Suzuki M/C's for disk/drum or disk/disk? I thought they were all disk/drum?
2) If the push rod is slightly pushing the piston, what problem will that cause (see laughing above... I think it's OK but I'm gonna check)
3) How do I check for internal residual pressure valves?
4) You're sure I need residual pressure valve (10psi) if I have a disk/drum M/C? I guess it can't hurt?
5) Since I may have to inspect the M/C (remove and make a damn mess with that slimy brake fluid! :bang: ) should I just replace it? They're relatively cheap.

BTW, here's the current status!
Image

Getting there!!


1. :hmmm: I don't know if some of the very late model Geo's had Disk / Disk or not. Most of the info I was able to find was for the early models and those all seemed to be Disk / Drum systems. Since they were really low priced cars my guess is they never had rear Disks.

2. :shock: Yeah that Rod should never ever, ever, ever, be pushing on the Master Cylinder's Piston before you step on the brake Pedel. It needs to have a little bit of clearance, the problem it will cause if it dosent will be constantly dragging brakes.

3. :D You either have to find the master cylinders build specs or take it apart and look for the residual pressure valves.

4. :hmmm: Some people will say you would need it and :shock: after seeing the picture of your brake line routing from MC to the distribution block / proportioning valve. I will say that you would diffenatly need them right there next to the MC outlet ports because they are lower than all those other lines and ports of the prop. valve / Dis. Block. X 2 I also think that it's a major problem, normally you sure don't want anything higher than the master cylinder. So if you don't want to use the residual pressure valves then you need to drop that distribution block / proportioning valve down so that it's below the MC outlet ports and so those brake lines will gravity feed into it.

5. :rolflmao: I don't think there any problem with your MC but you could replace if you want.

Good luck that looks like a really nice Falcon Wagon! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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200ci66
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #24 by 200ci66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:54 pm

B RON CO wrote:I posted about centering the proportioning valve before. I would be very concerned about running the brake lines so high and mounting the proportioning valve so high. That stuff is mounted under the master for a reason. Lets assume the brakes are bleeding out fine and it is possible to safely use this system as installed. What I would do is try to center the proportioning valve. I would have someone pump up the pedal a few times and than open the left rear bleeder screw (because this is closest to the proportioning valve) this is the normal way for me. By the way your photo shows the brake light switch not connected, if that was part of your system the brake light would be on, I wrote about that in the other post. I might try to bleed from the back fluid outlet on the proportioning valve. Since there is no bleeding screw I would remove the brake line and after your helper steps on the pedal you need to put your finger tightly over the hole. You may have to do this a couple of times. When the fluid does come out nice and strong you can put the brake line back in place and check your pedal. I think you will have to bleed the rears again, right rear first, left rear next. The master cylinder is probably OK. Just hope you never run low on brake fluid. There is another method of bleeding just using gravity. If I change a caliper for example I get everything installed, fill the master, open the bleeder screw and just wait for the brake fluid to drip out. You still have to bleed them but at least you see the fluid is getting there. By the way never use old brake fluid hat has been sitting around. Unless you know it is fresh get rid of it.



My proportioning valve is under my MC, it was another user that posted photos I have not. I am using the GM style proportioning valve with the fluid level switch on the side. I tried taking the line loose at the proportioning valve and I can't get any fluid. That's my issue I literally have no fluid for my rear line coming from the proportionimg valve now.
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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bubba22349
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #25 by bubba22349 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:59 pm

200ci66 wrote:Update - I took my car to school so I would be around people who wouldn't mind bleeding this a lot. After bleeding all 4 wheels 3 times, we found that one of the rear line fittings was leaking SO slightly (benefits to a lift as opposed to the ground). Tightened it up. As soon as I tightened it up, I had NO fluid going to back brakes. I did before I did this. Now I have none whatsoever, like the porportioing valve went bad on me. I had half and half, now I literally have no back brakes but my front brakes work fantastic there's fluid coming out when you unhook the line from the master cylinders rear port, but when unhooking the line after the proportioning valve there is nothing. The problem is the valve.. It now stops better than it did with 4 drums, but I literally have no back brakes. Could this valve be stuck? Can it be reset? Something went back inside it and blocked it? I can drive my car now but I have a lot of money in these brakes and it would be nice if all 4 wheels worked lol...


X2 Yes I think your right the proportioning valve has moved all the way to the one side blocking off the rear brakes. I learned this same lesson the hard way doing my first duel master system brake job back in late 1960's (on a Falcon Wagon). The proportioning valve is likely still good, it could be stuck too, but you should be able to reset it. As to if something went inside it and blocked it the only way to find that out would be to open it up and look at it and then clean it real good but I think that would be unlikely since your system is mostly new. Was it a new valve too? You will need to bleed it either at the proportion valve ports for the front lines or front wheel calipers until the valve has recentered again. Good luck edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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200ci66
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #26 by 200ci66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:45 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
200ci66 wrote:Update - I took my car to school so I would be around people who wouldn't mind bleeding this a lot. After bleeding all 4 wheels 3 times, we found that one of the rear line fittings was leaking SO slightly (benefits to a lift as opposed to the ground). Tightened it up. As soon as I tightened it up, I had NO fluid going to back brakes. I did before I did this. Now I have none whatsoever, like the porportioing valve went bad on me. I had half and half, now I literally have no back brakes but my front brakes work fantastic there's fluid coming out when you unhook the line from the master cylinders rear port, but when unhooking the line after the proportioning valve there is nothing. The problem is the valve.. It now stops better than it did with 4 drums, but I literally have no back brakes. Could this valve be stuck? Can it be reset? Something went back inside it and blocked it? I can drive my car now but I have a lot of money in these brakes and it would be nice if all 4 wheels worked lol...


X2 Yes I think your right the proportioning valve has moved all the way to the one side blocking off the rear brakes. I learned this same lesson the hard way doing my first duel master system brake job back in 1967. The proportioning valve is likely still good, or could be stuck too. You will need to bleed it either at the proportion valve ports for the front lines or front wheel calipers until the valve has recentered again. Good luck


Thanks guys this is what I thought. So rebleeding the calipers several times will reset the valve? I'm worried a metal flake has worked its way back into the valve and blocked something. Is there an article somewhere I can read up on these GM valves and how they work?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #27 by bubba22349 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:50 pm

Did you find metel in your system? The valves are fairly simple but they do have close tolerances so any grit or metel would not be good. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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200ci66
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #28 by 200ci66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:01 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Did you find metel in your system? The valves are fairly simple but they do have close tolerances so any grit or metel would not be good. :nod:


I didn't find any but there's always that chance I guess. I am seeing something about needing a special tool to screw into these valves where the light switch is. Have you heard of this?
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #29 by bubba22349 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:18 pm

Well to get that valve centered you need to crack the line and push down on the brake Pedel one time and then close the line and let it up. Yes there is a great little tool to use after you get that valve back centered again. You can maybe tell by shining a flash light to look down the brake warning light port. The valve has a radius'ed grove cut into the center for the light switch to sit down into fully extended (down the switch is normally open) if it moves to one side or the other it will close and light the brake warning bulb. You can then use that nifty little tool to help keep the valve centered (see the below link for video on the tool) after that you can finish bleeding of all the brakes without the valve moving. Second link talks about how to bleed the valve. Good luck :nod:

Use of valve centering tool
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osC7t3s3J7g

How to bleed the proportioning valve
http://www.ehow.com/how_12040941_propor ... stuck.html
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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200ci66
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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #30 by 200ci66 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:25 pm

Sorry to update everyone so late, but I have a completely separate question and I didn't want to start a new thread. After simply replacing the prop valve (I could not get it to center) I took it to a shop and had them bleed the brakes with a power bleeder and adjust the pushrod. I now have brakes.

I however have another concern with these brakes, they are very very noisy. I know the Granada brakes have a reputation for being noisy, but I feel as though I'm missing something. The noise is very annoying and at times embarrassing. The noise resembles a loose shock, a very metallic bang whenever you hit a bump of any kind. How do I know it's coming from the brakes? It didn't do this before I did the brake swap. I also know, because if you slightly TOUCH the brake pedal going over a bump the noise goes away. I've even developed a bad habit of tapping the brake whenever I go over a bump in the road because if I have the brake pedal depressed in the VERY slightest this noise goes away.

I've done my homework and double checked the common issues. I made sure to beat the tabs over the caliper the best I could on the outboard pad, but after this didn't make a bit of a difference I took some advice I read on a forum and glued the pad to the caliper using black Permatex. I've also double checked the anti rattle clip about 50 times. It's on the bottom of the inboard pad and is positioned the same way I've seen in so many pictures.

Other than this my brakes are functioning very well, the best brakes I've ever had on this car it's very unfortuneAte that it's making this noise. Like I said its boarder line embarrassingx
66 Mustang with matching 200 & 1968 C4
3.20 Rear End, Split Headers, Turbo Mufflers, 2.25 inch Exhaust, Holley 5200, Cold Air Induction, 68 distributor, Pertronix, Flamethrower Coil, Rear Air Shocks

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #31 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:46 am

200ci66 wrote:Sorry to update everyone so late, but I have a completely separate question and I didn't want to start a new thread. After simply replacing the prop valve (I could not get it to center) I took it to a shop and had them bleed the brakes with a power bleeder and adjust the pushrod. I now have brakes.

I however have another concern with these brakes, they are very very noisy. I know the Granada brakes have a reputation for being noisy, but I feel as though I'm missing something. The noise is very annoying and at times embarrassing. The noise resembles a loose shock, a very metallic bang whenever you hit a bump of any kind. How do I know it's coming from the brakes? It didn't do this before I did the brake swap. I also know, because if you slightly TOUCH the brake pedal going over a bump the noise goes away. I've even developed a bad habit of tapping the brake whenever I go over a bump in the road because if I have the brake pedal depressed in the VERY slightest this noise goes away.

I've done my homework and double checked the common issues. I made sure to beat the tabs over the caliper the best I could on the outboard pad, but after this didn't make a bit of a difference I took some advice I read on a forum and glued the pad to the caliper using black Permatex. I've also double checked the anti rattle clip about 50 times. It's on the bottom of the inboard pad and is positioned the same way I've seen in so many pictures.

Other than this my brakes are functioning very well, the best brakes I've ever had on this car it's very unfortuneAte that it's making this noise. Like I said its boarder line embarrassingx


There isn't much I can offer except to check the basics again. When I do a brake overhaul I make sure the caliper sides are very clean free of rust, dirt, or grime as well as the caliper groves, even check for burs and file them if needed so they are smooth. Then I use a little moly or white grease on the slides I also clean the brake pads slides and use the same grease on those slides too. All the parts need to be able to move easy. Are the caliper mounting brackets torqued down to spec? Are the caliper mounting pins in good condistion? Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bleeding brakes after you've replaced EVERTHING

Post #32 by B RON CO » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Hi, if the noise is coming from the front take off the wheel. Now push and pull and gently pry the caliper back and forth, up and down, every which way. If it is rocking clock wise and counter clock wise the mounting area on the steering knuckle is worn or the "flat spring" is to thin, or gone. All it should be able to do is ever so slightly slide in and out. I would also check all ball joint and tie rods and their nut for looseness. X2 Bubba, it should all be cleaned with a wire brush and lightly greased. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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