The new OLD FTF gets a "Duesenberg DOHC 4-valve"

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Stealth Bummer
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Post #101 by Stealth Bummer » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:45 am

Haynes makes a pretty good manual on SUs. Just don't admit to anybody that you bought one :lol:
Now, if you could come up with a trio of Weber DCOEs....
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Post #102 by shmoozo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:55 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Thanks for the info.

I measured my throttle bores and they are only 1.37. So yes, kinda small, but maybe good for cruising down the street in the 4th of July parade at 3 mph. A YF 1V has a 1.65 bore, but these SUs dont have a small venturi. I'm thinking they have about 40% bigger throttle area.


The SU carb line does have a few larger models in the same basic line. I gather the HS8 models which were used on some of the sixes in the Jaguar XK line between about 1971 and 1975 (or something like that) have a boire closer to 2". There were also the HS7 (about 1.87"), the HS6 (about 1.75), the HS5 (about 1,62") and so on, which were used on various other cars.

If you like the general look of the SU carbs, perhaps the HS8's or HS7's might be about right.

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Post #103 by addo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:12 pm

HS-8s are often (IMO) overpriced because they make people think of the E-Type. Plus there are some small variations of internals that are costly to bring up to speed if you start with a mismatched set. Not counselling against it, just flagging this point.

Even the HS-6s, which people initially think are "small", flow very well because venturi restiction is so much less than a standard downdraught carb. They're usually quite cheap, too!

RE: Webers - too common, too dear! Everyone overlooks Dell'Ortos, which frequently can do the same job and be purchased far cheaper...

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Post #104 by StrangeRanger » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:26 pm

Much as I hate to say anything good about the dreaded SU, if you can pick up a 3rd, the 1.5" ones should work nicely on a 300, There's going to be that problem of unbalanced intake pulses to deal with when you have 3 carbs but that's hardly insurmountable
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Post #105 by Stubby » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:46 pm

Rumor has it that someone has offered him from two to four HS6s off of the early Zcars. :roll: They are the three screw round tops.
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Post #106 by addo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:50 pm

You mean a three bolt mounting flange, or the vacuum chamber is held on by three screws?

Last of the carbied Integras here, ran CD type carbs, and they not only complied with emissions, but went like stink. Trouble is, they don't look old-tech enough!

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Post #107 by Stubby » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:03 pm

Vac chamber has three screws.

I wouldn't do this to... I mean FOR many people. :lol:
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Post #108 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:18 pm

Many thanks to Stubby for giving me two nice HS6 SU carbs.

I built this intake last week for them. It usually takes me about two hundred hours to fabricate an intake manifold using hammerform dies. This time I decided to make it out of flat aluminum stock. It only took about 40 hours to get this far. I still have to make throttle linkage and an equilizer tube, plus polish it all up, but you get the general idea. Does it look old fashioned? I did zero calculations on it - just grabbed a pencil and sketched the runners kinda seat-of-the-pants like.

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Post #109 by addo » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:55 pm

What are the tag codes, or what're they off?

Hooptie

Post #110 by Hooptie » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:11 pm

Looks like late 60s early 70s MGB carbs.

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Post #111 by shmoozo » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:30 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Many thanks to Stubby for giving me two nice HS6 SU carbs.

I built this intake last week for them. It usually takes me about two hundred hours to fabricate an intake manifold using hammerform dies. This time I decided to make it out of flat aluminum stock. It only took about 40 hours to get this far. I still have to make throttle linkage and an equilizer tube, plus polish it all up, but you get the general idea. Does it look old fashioned? I did zero calculations on it - just grabbed a pencil and sketched the runners kinda seat-of-the-pants like.


Nice work.

:)

It looks pretty cool, should look somewhat "vintage" when it's all ground smooth and polished and such. The overall shape is pleasing to the eye, and they at least look like they'll flow pretty well. Not to worry, of course. Even if they're less than optimized I have a feeling that you'll still be making more than enough torque and horsepower to get that light vehicle moving in a sufficiently "brisk" manner for the car to provide some ripping good motoring fun.

:)

Assuming they're big enough to feed that critter I think you ought to be able to get them working just fine. I would imagine that the planned equalizer tube should do a lot to help them to get enough air into the cylinders if it's large enough to allow each of the cylinders to draw from both carbs.

I suppose you'll be needing to find some appropriate vintage looking air filters or air horns for those carbs, but I am sure there must be some out there in catalogs full of gizmos for the guys who mess around with vintage Jags and such.

I'm sitting here envisioning a throttle linkage with at least one bell crank that's drilled full of lightening holes. I'm also wondering if engine-turning some of the parts might not help with the illusion of if being something exotic. Then again that would be a heck of a lot of work, so ...

:)

Have you measured to see how close to the left hood side the overall assembly will be? It looks pretty darn wide, doesn't it?

One thing I do wonder about. For somebody not trying for a vintage look, would it be easier to build an intake like that using tubing and flanges and such? Sort of like a header, but with a plenum and carb flanges rather than a collector? Or does that approach just not work very well on the intake side?

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Post #112 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:57 pm

addo wrote:What are the tag codes, or what're they off?

The carbs shown in the photos are HS3s that I had acquired earlier, along with the bolt up balance tube assembly. They were used for mock-up but it is now my intention to use the HS6s. Or try both sets at some point.

No tags on them but they came off an Austin Healy Sprite race motor that my friend has.

Stubby's carbs are Japanese copies from a 240 - 280Z.
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Post #113 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:11 pm

I would imagine that the planned equalizer tube should do a lot to help them to get enough air into the cylinders if it's large enough to allow each of the cylinders to draw from both carbs.

The triangular pads just downstream of the carbs will be used to make a balance tube, about 3/4 x 1 inch in cross section.

I suppose you'll be needing to find some appropriate vintage looking air filters or air horns for those carbs...

I'll probably fab them from stainless tubing.


Have you measured to see how close to the left hood side the overall assembly will be? It looks pretty darn wide, doesn't it?

Good point. But when I remove the cast equalizer tube and make skinny isolater pads I'll trim off about 4 inches. I hope that will locate the air cleaner(s) just outside the hood lines.


One thing I do wonder about. For somebody not trying for a vintage look, would it be easier to build an intake like that using tubing and flanges and such? Sort of like a header, but with a plenum and carb flanges rather than a collector? Or does that approach just not work very well on the intake side?[/quote]

That would work too. The ports on this head are tall rectangles so they would have to transition from round into rectangles, so I took the easy way and just cut out flat patterns and filled in the sides.
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Post #114 by Geezer 300 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:48 am

Looks great. Just curious why not more of a W pattern... carbs too far apart to do what you want?
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Post #115 by mutt » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:38 pm

i have a video dedicated to rebuilding/tweaking/tuning SU carbs Ill be glad to loan you.......ping me off line if interested....mutt

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Post #116 by Stubby » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:48 pm

If it is the Just SU video, he has it. :wink:
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Post #117 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:04 pm

Geezer 300 wrote:Looks great. Just curious why not more of a W pattern... carbs too far apart to do what you want?


The Sprite equalizer tube is where I started out - there is no other reason you couldn't space them farther apart.
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Post #118 by Muki » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:46 am

Nice to see it's coming along !

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Post #119 by ludwig » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:54 pm

Not to digress here, but where have you been Muki? The guys were asking about you. I said you were off ice bike racing until the sun came up in March or so.
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Post #120 by mattri » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:25 pm

This may be a dumb question, is the runner being so much longer for the 1 and 6 cyl and shorter for the 3 and 4 cyl's going tbe an issue? I always wondered why intakes aren't more like an equal leangth header. Thanks, Matt.

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Post #121 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:47 pm

mattri wrote:This may be a dumb question, is the runner being so much longer for the 1 and 6 cyl and shorter for the 3 and 4 cyl's going tbe an issue? I always wondered why intakes aren't more like an equal leangth header. Thanks, Matt.


Look at some of the in takes of the 1930s and 1940s. Many looked like household plumbing connections. Concern about equal lengths, equal volumes, straight runners, etc was as not paramount. Packaging was a larger issue in those smallish cars. I tried to make it look OLD. Several modern inlines - slant six Chryslers and 2.3L Pintos come immediately to mind - have unequal runners and perform acceptably too.
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Post #122 by Muki » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:14 pm

ludwig wrote:Not to digress here, but where have you been Muki? The guys were asking about you. I said you were off ice bike racing until the sun came up in March or so.


Well, a long story but I'll try to make it short. First of all, still involved with ford sixes. Just got two ARP head stud packages for the big ole' six.

But while I've been missing - a lot of things have happened like changing to a new job, spending 2+ months in the US for training (both west and east coast), acquired a 1973 4d sedan Valiant with a healthy alu headed 440 - good for easy mid-to-high 11's on the 1/4 mile (normally aspirated - it's a riot on wheels), oh yes did I mention working a lot, and then once again working around the clock for months and months in a row.

But gent's the thing is, once you get involved with ford sixes you will never really leave. You may be gone for awhile, temporarily.

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Post #123 by ludwig » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:27 pm

Cool and cool. The new job and the new project.
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Post #124 by mattri » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:58 pm

Good to know, thanks. So at what point, if at all, does it help to have the runners equal, or close?

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Post #125 by StrangeRanger » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:02 pm

mattri wrote:Good to know, thanks. So at what point, if at all, does it help to have the runners equal, or close?


Equal length intake runners will maximize HP at a single RPM. This is not always a good thing. Look at pictures of some of the old Can-Am cars from the late 60s and early 70s. They used multiple length velocity stacks on their fuel injection systems to create multiple power peaks at different RPMs. Since the power curves overlapped, this gave the effect of a very wide, flat power band. Of course the fact that they were running 494 CID aluminum Rat motors didn't hurt. But peak power isn't everything, unless you run Bonneville.
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Post #126 by mattri » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:02 pm

Wow, that just opens up a ton more questions, don't want to high jack the thread though. Thanks for the reply, Matt.

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Post #127 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:27 pm

I was surffing the HAMB and found this photo of a sprinter circa 1952 with an inline six. It was powered by a Ranger six, which was, I believe a helicopter or aircraft engine. Correct me if I'm wrong. I liked the lines and proportions of this machine.
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Post #128 by MustangSix » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 pm

Could be. The Fairchild 440 was used in airplanes and helicopters. OHC 6 cylinder, inline, air-cooled, 440ci, 175hp@2450rpm, 376lbs. It was used in a lot of trainers like the Fairchild PT19. In the airplane it was run inverted as shown in the picture.

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Post #129 by shmoozo » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I was surffing the HAMB and found this photo of a sprinter circa 1952 with an inline six. It was powered by a Ranger six, which was, I believe a helicopter or aircraft engine. Correct me if I'm wrong. I liked the lines and proportions of this machine.


I stumbled on a photo collection today online. It's a page full of Miller and Offy race cars thumbnail images each of which links to a full sized image.

Here is a link:

The Miller/Offenhauser Historical Society Photo & Sound Gallery

There are a lot of images full of ideas for any project car like the one you're building.

:)

I haven't checked out the sounds yet, but I sure do plan to.

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Post #130 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:12 am

Thanks. I added it to my 'favorites'.
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Post #131 by shmoozo » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:59 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I decided to go with polished stainless. Does anybody have a source for a piece of 4" polished stainless steel, preferably in the Great Lakes area? Cheap? I s'pose I could get some heavy truck exhaust stack. I need about an 8 foot section.


I was just checking out a link somebody posted in another thread, and stumbled on something I thought might interest you.

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Sidepipe Insert Mufflers - popular on Corvettes & some Cobras.
The expanded ends slip just inside a 4" OD sidepipe - slots cut into each end can be tweaked slightly in order to keep constant tension against the inside of the sidepipe during exhaust heating & cooling cycles. This eliminates rattling & loose fits. Now you can have the unique chambered sound & superior flow through your sidepipes.
NOTE: 2.5" core versions are quieter than 3" core versions.
*These can be made in different lengths as well - inquire.


Here's a link to the page where those are found,

Classic Chambered Exhaust Products Page (It's about 1/3 of the way down the page.)

Here is a link to their FAQ page which is where they explain their mufflers (well, sort of).

Classic Chambered Exhaust FAQ Page

If you're still planning on using that 4" pipe for the exhaust, then it would appear that one of the "Sidepipe Insert Mufflers" slipped inside would probably get the noise levels down a little bit without sacrificing much power and without losing that aggressive sound of a racing car.

Just a thought.

:)

Oh, by the way, the company is in Milford, Michigan. I'm not sure if that is close to you there, but I thought I'd mention that in case it was.

:)
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Post #132 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:10 pm

Thanks shmoozoo - I'll look into it. I was going to make up a slide-in insert but I may just buy one of theirs if it fits a .060 wall 4" pipe.

I had a Honda 305 Superhawk in college with a megaphone exhaust. At the tip was something called a Snuf-or-Not, which was basically a perforated throttle valve. When closed it greatly reduced noise. When open it was virtually a straight pipe. I may build one like that on a larger scale.
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Post #133 by American Thunder » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:16 pm

To make up for unequal length intake runners, you could just make the longer runners slightly narrower and more restrictive, so that the end result is equal flow, but that would be time consuming, to say the least.

P.S. Your fabricating work is awesome.
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Post #134 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:19 pm

or make the longer ones biger
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Post #135 by American Thunder » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:10 am

American Thunder wrote:To make up for unequal length intake runners, you could just make the longer runners slightly narrower and more restrictive, so that the end result is equal flow, but that would be time consuming, to say the least.

P.S. Your fabricating work is awesome.


Edit: oops, I meant shorter runners.
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Post #136 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:22 pm

We took the new champ car to its first show. My wife also entered the Willys and the race car. The race car won "The Most Radical Ride" award and the judges told us later the champ car would have won "Best Unfinished" award had it been entered instead of "display only".

Side Note: I usually don't enter car shows but my neighbor is the pastor of the church that sponsored this one and he asked me to come.
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Post #137 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:10 pm

I fabricated a slip-in baffle from .075 stainless steel.

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Post #138 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:27 pm

Here is the buck I will use to build the nose piece. I had to modify the second last station to get it to transition into the Whippett grille shape I had originally planned to use, in case I ever want to retro-fit the Whippet shell onto the car.

Image

I cut up chunks of an extra pair of fenders from my '46 pickup push car to use for the basic shape of the nose:

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Post #139 by 56mulberry » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:22 pm

IS there a way that we at the Fordsix community could take up a collection of sorts and donate it so FTF can work on this thing full-time? :D

I check this sticky every couple days and its like a kid opening a Christmas present--just waiting to see whats done next!! Its been a fun two years to watch---keep up the good work. Reminds me of an old matinee style serial movie---"...tune in next week as...." D
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Post #140 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:29 pm

Hey 56,
Thanks for the offer, but even if it were totally funded by "fans" I would not be able to move this project along more rapidly, as I usually have two or three projects going on simultaneously so progress on any one project moves at a snail's pace. As an example, I have to reassemble my '46 pickup truck after painting it, build a new race car motor for my bracket racer, restore my Logghe altered for Nostalgia racing and work with my son on his '48 Anglia. In addition, I'm looking to acquire two recent finds (a '40 Buick gangsta sedan straight 8 and an Olson / Grumman delivery truck for a 300 test bed / parts hauler, currently 292 Chevy powered) so I don't see the future holding any fast completion date on this champ car. But that's how I love to work - lots of balls in the air - it keeps my creative juices flowing and my mind active.

Let me suggest you guys make a donation to the local food bank for homeless or the charity of your choice instead in the name of Ford six fans everywhere.

Enjoy this Holiday Season all.

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Post #141 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:33 pm

PS: What I plan to do next is shape the metal body panels for the nose and tail and build a front-mounted dummy distributor to "power" the Duesenberg's eight spark plugs. That will determine the hood height needed.I envision a blister in the hood being needed to get the body lines to look right. Several local rodders expressed interest in helping with the body build. Stay tuned.
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Post #142 by shmoozo » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:56 pm

Hey, FTF,

I just stumbled upon another interesting web site. Seems there is a guy building vintage sprint car replicas in the Cincinnati area. Here is a link to his web site.

Shaw Hot Rods

It's neat looking stuff and there are lots of construction pictures in the gallery section.

:)
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Post #143 by Asa » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:11 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I fabricated a slip-in baffle from .075 stainless steel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ ... sr_051.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ ... sr_050.jpg


how do you plan on keeping the baffle in during driving?
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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Post #144 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:02 pm

Asa wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I fabricated a slip-in baffle from .075 stainless steel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ ... sr_051.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ ... sr_050.jpg


how do you plan on keeping the baffle in during driving?


Asa, the end of the baffle has a collar that will get drilled and tapped for two small machine screws - one on the bottom and one spaced 90 degrees away on the inside edge of the pipe so it will be inconspicuous.

Shmoozo, I have spoken with Mr Shaw. He and his father are real geniuses. I hope to visit his shop in the future.

6RE6
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Post #145 by shmoozo » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:25 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Shmoozo, I have spoken with Mr Shaw. He and his father are real geniuses. I hope to visit his shop in the future.

6RE6


I was noticing that it was within what I consider to be "driving distance" from where I gather you are, but it's a pretty good haul.

Hope it turns out to be a good trip.

:)
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Post #146 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:24 pm

A couple of months ago a Shaw sprint car was on the cover of "Street Rodder" magazine. They do it all in their restoration shop regarding old sprints, midgets, and champ cars. And they have some neat old hot rods too. I'll work on them to consider a 300 powered rod.

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Post #147 by TCIC 300ci superbeast » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:40 pm

FTF what type of rocker does your cross flow head use....
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Post #148 by Turbo F100 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:49 am

Hi FRENCHTOWN FLYER,

How is this project coming along?? Your kinda like me too many projects going on at the same time, so many people ask why I take so long to get my projects done I reply when you got a 100 projects going at one time there all going to be done allot slower than just working on one at a time.

Keep up the originality and the great craftsmanship!!!!!!

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Post #149 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:59 pm

TCIC 300ci superbeast wrote:FTF what type of rocker does your cross flow head use....


I use Harlan Sharp custom shaft-mounted roller rockers. I mocked two up and visited their engineers in Cleveland with drawings. They were willing to work with me on small quantities I desired.

The original rocker arms were woefully inadequate for what I wanted to do.
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Post #150 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:10 pm

Turbo F100 wrote:Hi FRENCHTOWN FLYER,

How is this project coming along?? Your kinda like me too many projects going on at the same time, so many people ask why I take so long to get my projects done I reply when you got a 100 projects going at one time there all going to be done allot slower than just working on one at a time.

Keep up the originality and the great craftsmanship!!!!!!


Its coming along great. I have a few decisions to make regarding finishing the chassis / axle mountings, but I think it will all work itself out. My biggest challenge is to make it look 70 years old but make it trouble free / low maintenance.

Regarding finishing car projects I have one basic rule: Do something on the project EVERY SINGLE DAY. Even if it is just making a drawing of a part or doing some research or phone calls, find something to do to cross off your list. (That is a subset rule of my basic rule: Make lists of things that need doing.) That way it will eventually get done.

Another of my rules for car building: Never put a 9-second motor in a 12-second chassis. Fastest recipe for disaster I know.
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