Another Turbo 200 nears completion....

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GReat results, nice pics, and nice video. Man that thing moves can't wait for till you put it back together with a little bit more performance this time.

If you could just get off the line a little quicker that thing would rule. I'm sure pretty soon you will be able to.

BTw i'll remember to stay more optimistic in the future g/l and i hope 2.0 or is it 3.0 now holds up great lol. I need to re read this post again......... It just go's in 1 ear and out the other lol. I think it's 2.0 though. Anyways g/l.
 
Gerry Lutz Jr.":jpqc4r6f said:
GReat results, nice pics, and nice video. Man that thing moves can't wait for till you put it back together with a little bit more performance this time.
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Thanks for the props! I try to share everything thing that happens: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

The car is fast = Good
This thing is so cobbled together = Bad
If you ever get to see the car in person = Ugly!

Gerry Lutz Jr.":jpqc4r6f said:
If you could just get off the line a little quicker that thing would rule. I'm sure pretty soon you will be able to.
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I might get the chance to drop the big bell C4 trans off to be built this Friday. If that doesn't happen, then a little bitty nitrous shot will help me get launched!
 
Oh yeah...open to suggestions why there is so much oil in cyls 1,3, 4 and 6. The plugs were wet with oil.
Plugs from cyls 2 and 5 are still dry.

At this point I am guessing it is just the head gasket, but I wasn't losing any antifreeze, and between cylinders was fine. There's just a lot of oil everywhere!!
 
I was just looking at this timeslip......

I lifted off the throttle once before the end of the eighth, and lifted again after....

Am I reading this right?? 85 MPH in the 1/8th??
That is moving along pretty good, Isn't it??

timeslip85.jpg


OK, so much for the first "successful" night of racing!!
More times to come as improvements happens.....
 
If it is 85mph in the 1/8th theres heaps left in the setup because you got there real QUICK. If you didn't have detonation that would have been a wild pass. I will hazard a guess and say low 13s at over 100mph. Man thats FAST. Congratulations. Add some goodies like porting cam carb etc and you should run 12 second passes. Thats fast with style.
 
73GreenMachine":331xconk said:
If it is 85mph in the 1/8th theres heaps left in the setup because you got there real QUICK. If you didn't have detonation that would have been a wild pass.
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Thanks, that's kind of what I was thinking.

I decided to leave it 1 bbl for now, 'cause:

1) I really want to see how far I can push the 1 bbl to work.
2) My other head isn't ready (FREE machine shop work means slow!!!)

If I can get a 12.99 out of the ol' Holley 1946 that would really be something. I think I might be able to pull that off.

I play this out in my head all the time, and watch that video over and over. I think a new trans with the 3000 RPM converter is going to REALLY wake this thing up, A LOT.
 
Nice job Linc's! :beer:
When you put her back together use the thickest head gasket you can find! Or better yet give Cometic a call and order one that's about .060" thick. That'll lower your compression a bit and help with the detonation.
Where is your timing at? And what fuel are you running?

This turbo stuff is fun isn't it? :D

Later,
Will
 
Does10s":14ib8ajv said:
1) Nice job Linc's! :beer:
2) When you put her back together use the thickest head gasket you can find!
3) Where is your timing at?
4) And what fuel are you running?

5) This turbo stuff is fun isn't it? :D
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1) Thanks!! The game isn't over, more to come!
2) I would rather have the squish area intact instead.
I am thinking of zero decking the block.
If you look at the #6 piston, and the shape of the combustion chamber, detonation occcurred ONLY where there is squish, and it is not close enough (gotta squeeze that air/fuel OUTTA THERE!)
3) Haven't touched it, so timing is wherever Ford set it at in 1982. Vac advance disconnected.
4) 100LL AvGas. It works great up to 20 psi....more than that, well.... :roll:
Before I reduce compression, timing, or change fuels, I am going to finish the alcohol injection kit I started.
5) YES, VERY FUN!!! Going to push it harder yet.
 
3) Haven't touched it, so timing is wherever Ford set it at in 1982. Vac advance disconnected.
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There's your problem!

Don't let the total timing get above 27*. The factory Duraspark distributor runs about 32* total. You can pull the distributor apart and modify the mechanical adv. so the total timing swing is only about 10*. Set initial at 17* then let her rip!
Either that or buy a bunch of MSD boxes and retard the timing that way.

No matter what, if you don't pull timing out you will always have detonation problems. Even with methenol/water injection.
Later,
Will
 
You could easy have a cracked piston or something along those lines. I've seen that sort of thing before. Fairly recently even. I know before I rebuilt mine when I was looking in there everything looked pretty ok with the exception of really poor compression on a couple of holes.
 
MustangSix":19tkr5w2 said:
I've seen that before when the electrode on a plug broke off. Looks like something very small got into the engine.
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It is not.
You have to look at it VERY CLOSELY.

Maybe you can't tell from the pictures, but they are not indented by pushing metal down, they are little craters like Chicken Pox.

Like little tiny miniature land mines exploded on the piston top.

And they are round. Perfectly round.

Based on what I have seen in my life from foreign object damage on pistons (always like bird pecks, NEVER perfectly round) I would bet that they are not from foreign objects.
 
Besides, foreign object damage to pistons always manifests itself on the surface of the head as well. (bits crushed between head and piston)

There is nothing like that on the head. The carbon layer is undisturbed.
 
addo":5e8ohh7t said:
Would it be like cavitation, but from the turbulence in combustion?
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I think that small amounts of impurities in the aluminum "boiled off"......

or the "critical temperature" of small amounts of something in the aluminum was reached. Just like little tiny landmines.

Maybe when detonation occurs, the "physical dimensional size" of the explosion is very, very small in relation to the area of the piston face.....perhaps each "rattle" I heard (in QUICK succession) was each small crater being formed??

Hard to say without a lot of scientific measuring equipment, but the solution is easy. I will swap in forged pistons and try to be a little more conservative on how quickly I work up in boost levels and timing.
 
Linc's,

I looked at your 2 barrel manifold drawing. I have 2 concerns. One, I think it will pick up additional heat from your turbo manifold and second, the reason why blow through's work better than draw through's is that the carb is in the original factory-designed location for good fuel distribution. The log is not that. Does 10's style 2-barrel is alot better than the 1-barrel, a shorter distance to end cylinders. That's why I favor a tri-power set up with 1:1 linkage. Bolt on adapters can be fabed easily for almost nothing. Doesn't even have to be precision. I know the tripower seems complex. I would try this myself but I'd have to relocate the engine and trans forward 4", new mounts and drive shaft so EFI it is. Also, I wouldn't deck the block more than just to make it flat. The deck is thin enough as is. The bores distort quite a bit. If checked with a torque plate you'd be surprised. They say deck height isn't that critical with a turbo engine - something about plenty of squish and faster burn of the denser mixture. I think you'll be in the 11's before you know it. Just let that short stroke, 7 main rev like it was meant to. Have fun!
 
drag-200stang":2pe8vyne said:
Linc's,

1) I looked at your 2 barrel manifold drawing....I think it will pick up additional heat from your turbo manifold

2) and second, the reason why blow through's work better than draw through's is that the carb is in the original factory-designed location for good fuel distribution. The log is not that. Does 10's style 2-barrel is alot better than the 1-barrel, a shorter distance to end cylinders.

3) That's why I favor a tri-power set up with 1:1 linkage.

4) Also, I wouldn't deck the block more than just to make it flat. The deck is thin enough as is. The bores distort quite a bit. If checked with a torque plate you'd be surprised.

5) They say deck height isn't that critical with a turbo engine - something about plenty of squish and faster burn of the denser mixture.

6)I think you'll be in the 11's before you know it. Just let that short stroke, 7 main rev like it was meant to. Have fun!
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1) The tubes would all be wrapped with some sort of insulation, either Thermo-Tec or something used for steam pipes, or whatever. That was just a rough sketch of an idea. Exhaust would be wrapped, also, and probably even some sort of heat shield employed to reduce radiated heat.

A while back, Holley udes to have a "Balance tube" across the back two cylinders on their Street Dominator, I think. I was planning to just use 1" tubing, so my intake would have more "balance" and not like a dual plane.

I have a LOT of E0xx heads, I just had two more engines GIVEN to me (for free) this week!!!!! So, if any of you have any idea how curious I am , there will be a LOT of different head testing about to happen!

2) A direct mount 2 bbl like Does 10's will be one head configuration tested in the future. Since I already know it "has been done before" I will try something different first, and resort to that head/intake design later.

3) Tri-Power is GREAT!! But I don't have three small carbs. If I could find three GOOD carbs, I would consider it. Until then all I find it junk. And they have to be tunable, with solid floats and easily obtainable jets and modifiable power vlaves and such. Not so easy anymore, is it???

The stock 1946 carb I am using has those:
A) uses std holly jets
B) power valve is easy to modify
C) had a solid float
D) After you cut off all the crap you don't need, it is a very simple carb, and seems to work REALLY well after being modified. Listening to that video (well, I remember being in the car for the run, also) that engine is making a ton of power through that 1 bbl carb. Would three 1946's be TOO MUCH?? I have been looking for a spare and can't find any cheap ones.

Ira (rotoryota) and Bryan Sharer (bsharer) on www.turbomustangs.com have been in the 8's and 9's (IN THE 1/4!) running stock holley 650's and 600's!!

OBVIOUSLY, you don't want to run a carb too large. I think a blowthrough works way better with a carb too small than too large (and speaking from experience here, I have more potential yet to tap from my 1 bbl) I have read a lot of scary stories on turbo mustangs about guys trying to blow through a carb that is too large. The fuel/air mixture ratio just goes everywhere. Smaller is better in this case.

4) Thanks for that advice, I gotta remember that these are thinwall casting blocks I have. Good thing the ones I have are std bore with no ridge.

About that torque plate - - - - who has one? I have never heard of one being available.

Is there one I can rent and have shipped to my machinist??
Did you have to make yours??

5) I have been reading alot about that lately. Apparantly, you are right - - - boosted engines don't follow the "squish" or "quench" rules liek N/A engines. LOTS and LOTS of turbulence already occurs in the chamber without having to add more.

Checkout this thread, pretty interesting:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=45705

6) I am going to have to pull some rabbits out of a hat to pull 11.99's with the current combo. I think I can get into the very high 12's with the stock cam, stock pistons, and stock 1 bbl carb - - I just have to tune the living daylights out of it (and I don't always have a lot of free time) and the new trans/3000 converter that are in the works will help a whole LOT.


When I ordered my head studs from FSPP, I also ordered a 214*/214* on 112* LC cam for it, But I am going to wait for a while before I swap it in. Also have forged pistons, and probably some reworked C3xx rods in the future. Maybe I should worry a liitle more about the stock 1982 rods????

From what I hear about rods failing in turbo engines, they fail from comression (being pushed on) not pulled apart, like N/A engines do.
 
Linc's,

As you fab up different induction set ups, think of your air/fuel mixture with air being the roadrunner and fuel being Wiley coyote. When the roadrunner takes off and gets to the end of the road, he stops and turns. The coyote catches up but can't stop and turn and goes off the cliff. They need to be together to crash and burn efficiently.

I understand what you're saying about too large of a carb and blow through. Is there some kind of formula for figuring out what the right proportion of carb cfm to engine size is for blow through? Would 360 degree manifolds be different than 180? I would think if an engine was responsive and ran well NA with a certain size carb and a turbo was added it would be OK.

I made my own torque plate from 1 3/4" thick mild steel from my local steel supplier. I had it flame cut out using a head gasket as a template and then blanchard ground. I used an old head as a guide to drill the head bolts. I use spacers with the studs that would be used. A plate the same thickness as the head would be better but more expensive and more work. The plate should be slightly larger than the head gasket and the cylinder bore holes should be round and centered, not like the gasket. Or the felts on some hones may cock the hone. The holes can be holesawed out if you drill 4 - 1/4" holes so the chips can be washed away. Maybe we can get Mike (FSPP) to make one and rent it out to people more local. They can be very heavy and shipping is pricey.

I wouldn't worry about your rods until you cam it up.

P.S. Your new cam under boost should have about 300 rpm higher usable rev range than what's advertised NA, if everything else is in order.

Jim
 
Cliffy rents a torque plate. I looked last year during my rebuild, and they were the only ones (commercially) I found .

Keep up the good work, this is one of the best posts here!!

tanx
 
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