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Anonymous
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turbo_fairlane_200":urvuz3r5 said:
It is still 100% all stock, high mileage.
I didn't even change the rings when I had it apart!
Another Turbo 200 nears completion....
- Thread starter Linc's 200
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It is still 100% all stock, high mileage.
I didn't even change the rings when I had it apart!
rust collector
Active member
How about a set of new valvesprings? 
G
Guest
Guest
Youre leaning out @5500, especially with the rate of air coming in, and the lack of fuel the 1bbl can keep for the fuel ratio to keep up with the demand of the engine. Essentially your A/F ratio is becoming out of wack up in that range. My 1 bbl 200 leans out at EXACTLY the same rpm, and thats without a turbo to offset it with a ton of air pouring in, making it even leaner than N/A.
Id try the 2bbl for a short time, and get a run or two more before having a good winter project to get it to where you REALLY want it. Guides and seals are fried, rings cant take the PSI and are probably wearing them out.
Looks like, if the strips closed, the garage is gonna be open for the winter.
Id try the 2bbl for a short time, and get a run or two more before having a good winter project to get it to where you REALLY want it. Guides and seals are fried, rings cant take the PSI and are probably wearing them out.
Looks like, if the strips closed, the garage is gonna be open for the winter.
Linc's 200
Well-known member
rust collector":2zoifnxt said:How about a set of new valvesprings?
That is not the problem.
There are NO SYMPTOMS WHATSOEVER that would indicate I have a problem with the springs.
It just feels like it runs out of air, that's all.
Runs clean and smooth and just pulls along at that RPM (RPM's are increasing slightly, but not very fast....).
It's acting like the cam or carb is way too small or something, the power just stops right there.
A
Anonymous
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sixty-2-tonfalcon":3navb2cf said:
No, the A/F ratio meter was showing it was OK,
It just feels like it runs out of air flow ability, that's all.
Runs clean and smooth and just pulls along at that RPM (RPM's are increasing slightly, but not very fast....).
It's acting like the cam or carb is way too small or something, the power just stops right there.
sixty-2-tonfalcon":3navb2cf said:
Got that right.
If you let it idle for 30 seconds there is a huge cloud of blue smoke when you give it gas!
I don't think the rings can't "Handle" boost, other engines can without problems. They are just really worn. Maybe some piston damage, too.
Here is an idea, let me toss it out there.....
I am thinking of building my new engine,
all fresh,
but stock head, stock cam, etc. and same exhaust log and 1 bbl carb.
I mean, I STARTED with a 150,000 mile engine to begin with!!
Wouldn't a FRESH engine have more power with the same combo???
I think I am going to try that!
A
Anonymous
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turbo_fairlane_200":3a8aedna said:
Your point would only be valid if I was bringing new engines to the strip.
There is nothing at all new about ANYTHING inside the engine I run!!!!!! (OK, I did change the timing chain....)
G
Guest
Guest
IMO:
Do a large valve conversion with decently heavy porting and a 5 angle. Use the teflon seals when you decide to start, the umbrellas are the worst. Get the guides checked and replaced if necessary with bronze. The head is crucial.
Check for grooves on the block, either bore or just ball hone to spec. If you have an accurate scale and a wheel grinder, you can balance your own rods, pm me for ideas on that, Ive done hundreds. The wrist pin has to be popped out, but maybe a shop can do that.
Put a high volume or high pressure oil pump, upgrade that.
Change ALL seals, gaskets etc. Do it all the way, do it right, do it cheap, and have all the upgrades you can ever want for only slightly more.
Put a chunky cam in there do research on whats the best for race app with good tall lift and long dur., even research for a good roller system, or if you dont decide on that, an adjustable rocker system is here sitting for donation, all you have to do is buy a set of four pushrods, the other 8 or 9 are here.
Id put an oil cooler on it, since that turbo oil gets the whole oil temp high and the pressure low. Use straight 60 oil, and change after every other trip to the strip.
My dad runs straight 70 in his dragster, and dumps it after every run.
As a matter of fact, if you run her one more time to the strip, put some straight 60 in it. Blows less oil, and some "glue" would help seal those rings. Youll get a more efficient and possibly quicker run once the car is warmed up for 5 minutes, and your compression % will go up sealing the guides, seals and most importantly the rings. 20(?) psi is pushing past some old rings, and hindering your performance. Throwing thick oil in a loose engine is a great way to tighten it up.
I hope you IC it with something substansial, or even a good route is a front mount Volvo in front of the rad. Volvos are CHEAP at the boneyard.
With your air inlet idea, be really careful with that. Road debris...well you know. Id disconnect it in transporting it.
All those ideas combined wouldnt take that much more money, not much more work than youd already be doing, and make it run maybe in the 12.5 or BETTER BETTER BETTER, IMO
Do it right, make it tight.
Do a large valve conversion with decently heavy porting and a 5 angle. Use the teflon seals when you decide to start, the umbrellas are the worst. Get the guides checked and replaced if necessary with bronze. The head is crucial.
Check for grooves on the block, either bore or just ball hone to spec. If you have an accurate scale and a wheel grinder, you can balance your own rods, pm me for ideas on that, Ive done hundreds. The wrist pin has to be popped out, but maybe a shop can do that.
Put a high volume or high pressure oil pump, upgrade that.
Change ALL seals, gaskets etc. Do it all the way, do it right, do it cheap, and have all the upgrades you can ever want for only slightly more.
Put a chunky cam in there do research on whats the best for race app with good tall lift and long dur., even research for a good roller system, or if you dont decide on that, an adjustable rocker system is here sitting for donation, all you have to do is buy a set of four pushrods, the other 8 or 9 are here.
Id put an oil cooler on it, since that turbo oil gets the whole oil temp high and the pressure low. Use straight 60 oil, and change after every other trip to the strip.
My dad runs straight 70 in his dragster, and dumps it after every run.
As a matter of fact, if you run her one more time to the strip, put some straight 60 in it. Blows less oil, and some "glue" would help seal those rings. Youll get a more efficient and possibly quicker run once the car is warmed up for 5 minutes, and your compression % will go up sealing the guides, seals and most importantly the rings. 20(?) psi is pushing past some old rings, and hindering your performance. Throwing thick oil in a loose engine is a great way to tighten it up.
I hope you IC it with something substansial, or even a good route is a front mount Volvo in front of the rad. Volvos are CHEAP at the boneyard.
With your air inlet idea, be really careful with that. Road debris...well you know. Id disconnect it in transporting it.
All those ideas combined wouldnt take that much more money, not much more work than youd already be doing, and make it run maybe in the 12.5 or BETTER BETTER BETTER, IMO
Do it right, make it tight.
G
Guest
Guest
To be honest, I JUST looked at your time slip (it was missing earlier), and your launch needs work or 60ft., the mph is "somewhat" low for that et.
Feels good to go at that ET and speed still, right? I dont down you, keep what youre doing IMO of course.
Feels good to go at that ET and speed still, right? I dont down you, keep what youre doing IMO of course.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Glad you made it to the track !
The first thing I noticed is that you peaked at 5500 and still had room at the end of your run. I hope the tranny wasn't slipping. You are gonna need more rpm or shorter gears to pick up speed. If you are looking at 1/4 mile only, you max out at peak HP and rpm at the line.
I've read that the stock bottom end is good for 7000 rpm. Is that what you are shooting for? From a system standpoint isn't that related to the cam? I can easily see the stock cam pooping out at 5000.
I think you should pop for an A/F gauge and sensor.
The pinging and oil burning sound bad. But it IS running, and hard !!
I can't tell you guy's how much this impresses me. I went to the Street Machine Nationals, and a local show with a little over 400 cars.
99.9% cookie cutter V8's
This whole high end I6 stuff is like watching a F1 team design a motor!!
You're of two minds. Here's 2 cents.
1. Build a new stock motor, but build it right.
Blueprint (I hate that term) it. Fit your rings, balance your rotating assembly, cc your chambers. get everything as right as it can be.
2. Move up one notch.
Build a stock bottom end, ditto above. Use your new rods with stock pistons, but get a cam !!
A/F is my big worry. I see the carb as the weak link in this whole picture. You just can't really tell what is happening unless something blows up.
The first thing I noticed is that you peaked at 5500 and still had room at the end of your run. I hope the tranny wasn't slipping. You are gonna need more rpm or shorter gears to pick up speed. If you are looking at 1/4 mile only, you max out at peak HP and rpm at the line.
I've read that the stock bottom end is good for 7000 rpm. Is that what you are shooting for? From a system standpoint isn't that related to the cam? I can easily see the stock cam pooping out at 5000.
I think you should pop for an A/F gauge and sensor.
The pinging and oil burning sound bad. But it IS running, and hard !!
I can't tell you guy's how much this impresses me. I went to the Street Machine Nationals, and a local show with a little over 400 cars.
99.9% cookie cutter V8's
This whole high end I6 stuff is like watching a F1 team design a motor!!
You're of two minds. Here's 2 cents.
1. Build a new stock motor, but build it right.
Blueprint (I hate that term) it. Fit your rings, balance your rotating assembly, cc your chambers. get everything as right as it can be.
2. Move up one notch.
Build a stock bottom end, ditto above. Use your new rods with stock pistons, but get a cam !!
A/F is my big worry. I see the carb as the weak link in this whole picture. You just can't really tell what is happening unless something blows up.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Sorry, last post I read was about the valve springs.
G
Guest
Guest
HAHAHAHA Lincs, you sure you dont have one of dem "5500 rev limiters" on that old beast. Like, is it one of dem dere EFI mobiles?
HAHAHAHA get it?
HAHAHAHA get it?
I believe it's gotta be the 1bbl. Just not enough flow. I'd spring for the 2bbl upgrade, since you've already got the A/F gauge, the I/C et al. I read the buildup part! (I'm a geek.) As far as you've come, I don't believe that there's much I could tell you that you wouldn't have thought of already. Good job!
Hi Linc's,
I've been told about a way to cut down your 60 ft times besides a 2 step. I guess the import guys are holding a blow off valve open at the line and slamming it shut at the launch. Just the right amount of restriction at the blow off valve would keep the turbo from overspeeding. That way the turbo is full tilt when you launch.
I think you've exceeded the 300 more rpm than NA at 5500 with a stock cam. It is shorter on lift and duration than any other engine. Why would a V8 with larger ports and bigger valves need as much as the factories give them? The cubic inch per cylinder is not that much larger. The 200 is simply an economy engine - that's why it responds so well to upgrades.
I agree with Howard, if you want to go faster with a stock cam you'll probably need to change your tires or gear.
I'd forget the nitrous - people won't give you respect using it.
I'd wait until you take the motor apart before you make any decisions. Maybe you'll discover a problem. How was your rebuild? Ridge removed, bores honed? What's your crank case ventilation like? All boosted motors have excess blow by. Be careful with thick oil. If you don't get it up to full temperature, the oil will not drain back to the crank case. It will fill the valve cover and overflow making for a slick ride - ask me how I know. I wouldn't worry too much about valve seals for just your strip ride. Pressures are high enough the oil won't even think about going down either guide.
On your forged rods I'd knock off the hugh balance pads and rebalance yourself like sixty-2-tonfalcon suggested. They're there for factory ease of balancing but they won't do you any good hammering up and down.
I know you want to try and get the best ET out of your stock one-barrel combo engine but more HP could be made with less stress on the engine with pocket porting, back cut valves, maybe larger exhaust valves - I ran 1 1/2" - maybe larger turbo, cam and a little more induction.
Most things that I write are intended for all readers. Many of these things I'm sure you know.
Let us know what you find on teardown.
PS - I think you're doing a great job. What are you at? 5 times the stock HP with a stock engine.
I've been told about a way to cut down your 60 ft times besides a 2 step. I guess the import guys are holding a blow off valve open at the line and slamming it shut at the launch. Just the right amount of restriction at the blow off valve would keep the turbo from overspeeding. That way the turbo is full tilt when you launch.
I think you've exceeded the 300 more rpm than NA at 5500 with a stock cam. It is shorter on lift and duration than any other engine. Why would a V8 with larger ports and bigger valves need as much as the factories give them? The cubic inch per cylinder is not that much larger. The 200 is simply an economy engine - that's why it responds so well to upgrades.
I agree with Howard, if you want to go faster with a stock cam you'll probably need to change your tires or gear.
I'd forget the nitrous - people won't give you respect using it.
I'd wait until you take the motor apart before you make any decisions. Maybe you'll discover a problem. How was your rebuild? Ridge removed, bores honed? What's your crank case ventilation like? All boosted motors have excess blow by. Be careful with thick oil. If you don't get it up to full temperature, the oil will not drain back to the crank case. It will fill the valve cover and overflow making for a slick ride - ask me how I know. I wouldn't worry too much about valve seals for just your strip ride. Pressures are high enough the oil won't even think about going down either guide.
On your forged rods I'd knock off the hugh balance pads and rebalance yourself like sixty-2-tonfalcon suggested. They're there for factory ease of balancing but they won't do you any good hammering up and down.
I know you want to try and get the best ET out of your stock one-barrel combo engine but more HP could be made with less stress on the engine with pocket porting, back cut valves, maybe larger exhaust valves - I ran 1 1/2" - maybe larger turbo, cam and a little more induction.
Most things that I write are intended for all readers. Many of these things I'm sure you know.
Let us know what you find on teardown.
PS - I think you're doing a great job. What are you at? 5 times the stock HP with a stock engine.
Linc's,
Kelly's car does the same thing around 5300rpm or so. It just falls on it's face around that RPM. The difference between your 5500, and her 5300rpm, might be due to the 50 cubes that we have over your 200 cubes.
I believe that the log manifold can only flow so much air, even if it's forced in! So it probably just can't breath anymore.
We put in 3.50:1 gears just so she'll cross the finish line at less than 5300rpm. This "cured" the problem.
Another thing might be to add a degree or two of timing only above 5000rpm. This will require a MSD Digital 7 or equivalent.
We need to figure out how to bore out the center of the log so it'll handle more CFM!
Kelly and I have races for the next three weekends!
So we'll see how she does. Later,
Will
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Anonymous
Guest
Will, I am glad you chipped in with that. All the time I've spent reading and pondering Linc's and other's post's, I have been wondering about your results and how you got there. I have been thinking very hard about the restrictions in the system on both the intake and exhaust sides of a turbo approach. It really is enlightening to see that you also hit a wall around 5500 rpm. Is that common for N/A motors as well, or does a more aggresive cam take that limit up? It would take a great deal more math than I'll ever have to calculate flow capacity. Then you have to deal with distribution of the charge, valve shrouding, lift, duration, and overlap.
These new heads may seem to be the answer. I hope we can get some good numbers to reflect on. Considering the investment, I'll probably work over a cast iron unit for the street motor and just be happy. But I can see that to make the most of an AL head you would have to build from the piston up.
These new heads may seem to be the answer. I hope we can get some good numbers to reflect on. Considering the investment, I'll probably work over a cast iron unit for the street motor and just be happy. But I can see that to make the most of an AL head you would have to build from the piston up.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Does10s":r0skleqo said:
Thinking along these lines......
I will post more answers later to all these great posts - THANKS! ( I am at work)
Funky Cricket
Well-known member
damn, just can't that 60 ft down, and try a slighty higher gear, maybe a 3.27? you are running 3.55's if I remember. that'll keep in the rpm range longer.
I personally, (being greedy i know) would like to see a nice fresh stock rebuild and see what it can do. if i ever get another I6 (man do i hope so) I would like to take this approach also.
AND a beefed up combo to see where you can really take a 200.
glad to see it is doing good, just need to find a way to get it moving quicker off the line.
I personally, (being greedy i know) would like to see a nice fresh stock rebuild and see what it can do. if i ever get another I6 (man do i hope so) I would like to take this approach also.
AND a beefed up combo to see where you can really take a 200.
glad to see it is doing good, just need to find a way to get it moving quicker off the line.
just get it over with and get some forged slugs, aftermarket rods, studs, efi and go for teh 10's
Linc, you started this to see what you could get out of a stock 200. You crossed the line a little bit when you added the extra fuel line and sol for extra fuel. That kinda is out of the normal scope for most who would try the turbo motor in total stock trim. I would reasses the project and the objectives.
You have taken a stock engine further than most would dream of.
Do you have enough data to lay down a guide line for a good stock build that will be reliable and perfectly drivable? IMHO Yes. I think I have seen enough numbers and info to build a streetable, dependable setup without getting exotic.
You found the weak link in the pistons. The pistons are the weak link in most boosted aplications and we can figure about where they will fail.(detonation) I personaly think you can push stock pistons farther with proper fuel, timing, mixture and all that good stuff. As the power goes up these become more critical with less safety margin. At some point it will switch from a test in strength of parts to a test of your ability to tune. It already switched for the pistons and the rods survived better than expected.
You found the top RPM with stock induction and it is a pretty good place keep a stock engine 5000 RPM. Most would say that is beyond a good place.
If you would like to finish this chapter with rock solid info, then you could build your new engine with forged pistons, good rods, stock head and cam. Reduce the boost to an acceptable level for pump gas and nail down a rock solid combo for the average guy. Then pull the head and cam and start the next chapter. I feel you already have enough info we might just need to sort it out then start the next chapter.
I know you can push it farther, I just don't know if it would be in your best interest. We know it will break and I fear it will break on the big end. This thing is running a pretty impresive MPH and your next step in gearing will add to that. The safety thing is a consideration. I would not feel comfortable asking you to push it beyond where you have already taken it. If you choose to push it I will still appreciate the knowledge and info you have to offer. I would just hate to loose a valuable member to a great board. I would never want to insult you I just have to make sure your are considering the safety factor as I am sure you would do for me.
You have taken a stock engine further than most would dream of.
Do you have enough data to lay down a guide line for a good stock build that will be reliable and perfectly drivable? IMHO Yes. I think I have seen enough numbers and info to build a streetable, dependable setup without getting exotic.
You found the weak link in the pistons. The pistons are the weak link in most boosted aplications and we can figure about where they will fail.(detonation) I personaly think you can push stock pistons farther with proper fuel, timing, mixture and all that good stuff. As the power goes up these become more critical with less safety margin. At some point it will switch from a test in strength of parts to a test of your ability to tune. It already switched for the pistons and the rods survived better than expected.
You found the top RPM with stock induction and it is a pretty good place keep a stock engine 5000 RPM. Most would say that is beyond a good place.
If you would like to finish this chapter with rock solid info, then you could build your new engine with forged pistons, good rods, stock head and cam. Reduce the boost to an acceptable level for pump gas and nail down a rock solid combo for the average guy. Then pull the head and cam and start the next chapter. I feel you already have enough info we might just need to sort it out then start the next chapter.
I know you can push it farther, I just don't know if it would be in your best interest. We know it will break and I fear it will break on the big end. This thing is running a pretty impresive MPH and your next step in gearing will add to that. The safety thing is a consideration. I would not feel comfortable asking you to push it beyond where you have already taken it. If you choose to push it I will still appreciate the knowledge and info you have to offer. I would just hate to loose a valuable member to a great board. I would never want to insult you I just have to make sure your are considering the safety factor as I am sure you would do for me.
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