4-spd tranny in F100 w/300ci...

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4-spd tranny in F100 w/300ci...

Postby 56mulberry » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:28 pm

Am going to look at a couple of 4-speeds tomorrow --wanting to swap out the column 3-spd in sons F100 to flor shift/top-loader style 4-spd. We DON'T want to end up with similar gears as 3-spd plus a "granny" as first--would prefer to get a true 4-spd. with better spaced ratios. He has a hard time right now when pulling his lawn business trailer from a dead stop on an incline--first is geared awfully high in the column 3spd. Does anybody have a definitive list of 4-spds that will bolt up directly to 1977 F-100 w/300? Does it matter if tranny was in a 4WD/2WD as far as engine/tranny output shaft/spline differences? I can get the tranny tag #'s and post them here also--might make it easier?!?!? Thanks Doug

PS--I know the one 4spd was in a 4WD 67/68/69 F-series with a 240ci because the guy special ordered it like that--kinda weird I know but when I lived in New Hampshire I knew a guy with a factory F100 4WD Short WheelBase with a 240ci and a 4-spd. He had also ordered it that way.
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Postby Craigwell » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:49 pm

Rear Diff gears and tire size, along with the truck's weight, and towed/carried weight are all big factors in this.

here is a tranny guide:

http://www.motivegear.com/tech_info/tra ... guide.html

The T170 Rug series might not be a bad choice if the rear diff has a ratio of 3.50 or higher. These aren't the heaviest duty units out there, but some were behind V8's, and had different ratios to choose from. I wouldn't want to be towing much with one though. The first in some of them isn't much better than that in your Ford 3.03 3 speed.

I've been down these very roads with all of these transmissions, behind a 300. I'd avoid the sideloader unit with rods, unless you can adjust them yourself and/or find bushings for when, not if the shift action gets sloppy, with occasional jamming (like the 3.03 can and will do)

I would be very curious to know what the transmissions are you're going to look at, special order and all.

If the truck has 3.08 gearing or similar, I don't think an NP435 or T18/T19 are bad choices, especially if the tires are taller. You don't need anything with overdrive to work well with those gears.

I did have a 77 F100 2WD with a 300, 3.08 gearing, and various Rug/RTS trannies that did use the overdrive just fine on the highway, 235/75R15 tires, fwiw.

If there is any amount of serious work to be done with the truck however, and you want flexibility with the tranny ratios, I suggest a ZF 5 Speed. These come with an overdrive, AND a low first gear, and have different ratio sets available with same bellhousing pattern as the 300 if you get the right one. (S5-42)

www.zf.com/na They came in late 80's - 90's F250's with 300 , 351W trucks.

Please post any tag/tranny info you find!
1995 F150 4x4 4.9L E4OD Mule / Plow Truck
Gone but not forgotten: 1976 F250 4x4 300 six, NP435. Dana60/44HD 4.10 Traction Lok, EFI Exhaust, 240 Head
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Re: 4-spd tranny in F100 w/300ci...

Postby Lazy JW » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:42 pm

56mulberry wrote:
....We DON'T want to end up with similar gears as 3-spd plus a "granny" as first--would prefer to get a true 4-spd. with better spaced ratios....


Reckon I find that statement a bit confusing... :? Do you mean that you WANT a granny gear or do you NOT want a granny gear?

My preference leans toward a wide-ratio granny-tranny for bona-fide work. A TOD or SROD type that has three-speeds-plus-overdrive will do fine in modest stress applications so long as the rear end isn't geared too tall.
Joe
74 F-350 300-6, EFI manifolds into single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18B, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. Great farm truck!
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Postby superbepro » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:45 pm

There have been several discussions on this forum (240-300) about transmissions. I have participated in several as I did swap my 4 speed OD (RUG series, a fake toploader with OD) to a close ratio T-19. Do a search to find these threads.

If you do NOT like the idea of having a transmission with a first gear that is very low ("granny" with a ratio over 6:1) and non-synchonized (which requires double clutching to downshift from 2nd to 1st), then your options boil down to:
1) a BW T-19 (4-speed) with the 5.11:1 first gear (standard ratio & the most common to find, or if you are lucky a close ratio T19 with the 4.02 first gear that only came in F250 and F350 diesels)
2) a Madza 5-speed w/OD
3) a ZF 5-speed w/OD

Out of these fully-synchonized 4-and 5-speed transmissions, the only one that will be a direct bolt-on and use the mechanical cluch linkage of your truck will be the T-19. The other two will require modifications to adapt the hydraulic clutch stuff (and maybe the trans cross member).

As far as the T19 (and similar T18 and NP235 that have a non-synchronized 1st gear) is concerned, you do need to find a transmission that is compatible with your drivetrain. 2WD and 4WD versions are not a direct swap; such swap will require to change both the main shaft and the tail shaft and tailhousing (expensive items). Very likely you will also need to modify and/or change your driveshaft. If your current truck uses a 1-piece driveshaft, and you want to use a T19, T18 or NP235, you will definitively need a 2-piece driveshaft (finding and adapting the center bearing carrier will be the most challenging item for this swap). Raul

I have a couple of pictures of my truck (1978 F100 with a 300 engine) and the transmission swap on this site:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery ... umid=15315
Raul (in DFW area of Texas)
1978 F100, LWB, 2WD, 300inline, close ratio T-19, 9" rear w/2.75:1
1979 F150, SWB, 4WD, 351M, T-18 & NP205, Dana 44 and 9" axles w/3.50:1
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Postby Ferris Bueller » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:56 am

FYI for people not very familiar with the trannys with a granny 1st gear. In regular driving with no or light load you do NOT use the granny gear to start out in. You can ruin the granny gear in a T18 if you start out in granny all the time.
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Postby 56mulberry » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:57 am

I believe rearend is a 3.00:1 if I recall correctly. SO it looks like the goal here is to find a 2WD T-19 to make things simple? Tires on it are essentially stock and as far as towing--the load is usually very light--a single axle 10-12ft trailer with a rider mower, blower, weedeater, etc. Probably 1200-1500lbs total max and not all the time--it is also going to be his daily driver. Doug
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Postby Lazy JW » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:07 am

IMHO a 3.00 differential needs a granny-tranny for any serious WORK loads. A T-19 with the 5.11 granny gear would be about ideal; it has the fully synchronized gearset and will give acceptable takeoff performance pulling a trailer. A T-18 or NP-435 has lower deeper granny gears but are not synchronized in first gear.

This all assumes the use of STOCK SIZE tires. If you fall into the deep, dark, murky, stinky trap of wanting those Really Cool Macho Big Fat Tires then better go for the T-18/NP-435 and learn to shift like Real Men.
Joe
74 F-350 300-6, EFI manifolds into single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18B, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. Great farm truck!
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Postby SuperMag » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:21 am

Lazy JW wrote: ... If you fall into the deep, dark, murky, stinky trap of wanting those Really Cool Macho Big Fat Tires then better go for the T-18/NP-435 and learn to shift like Real Men.
Joe


:lol:
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Postby Ferris Bueller » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:47 am

In the past typical cars and light trucks have an overall 1st gear ratio of around 10:1. So say you have a 3.00 rear and 1st gear in your tranny is 3.50.... 3.00 x 3.50= 10.50.. A 5.11 1st x 3.00 rear would net you 15.33 overall 1st ratio which I think should work fine for pulling a trailer and some lawn equipement.
White 09 Ranger 2wd 2.3 5sp 143hp 3.73 60k miles
White 04 Ranger 2wd 2.3 5sp 143hp 3.73 134k miles
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Postby 83F150 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:21 pm

A T18 granny 4sp is about the only transmission worth having in a honest to goodness work truck.

I had one in my 83 F150, with a 300 and 4.11 gears, and that thing would outpull most V8's, but mileage sucked.

My 78 F350 also has a T18, and aside from the long throw and unsycro first that doest really lend itself to sprirted driving they are always gonna work when you need them to.

If you get good at shifting them then there actually fun to drive. I can shift my old T18 faster then my buddy could shift his M5OD.

Your not supposed to take off in 1st gear with a Creeper low unless your heavlily loaded or on a steep grade, but i always thought it was because of stress on the Engine, not the tranny.

later,
Dustin
[/quote]300's are known for that. Even running on 3 cylinders upside down without oil or coolant they'll still pull a locomotive up a hill, albeit at 5 mph..... OK so maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but you get the idea....[/quote]
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08 Colorado 2wd 2.9L\5sp\3.73's
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Postby Harte3 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:13 pm

Real men drive twin stick 4x4, 5x4, etc., "crash" tranny sets :P . No synchro at all for any of the gears and only use the clutch to start or stop 8)
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.
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Postby Lazy JW » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:24 pm

83F150 wrote:...

Your not supposed to take off in 1st gear with a Creeper low unless your heavlily loaded or on a steep grade, but i always thought it was because of stress on the Engine, not the tranny....


The only reason not to use granny gear is because there is no need to use it. It couldn't possibly "stress" the engine.

As Boyd mentioned above, light pickups/cars typically used about a 10:1 first gear ratio (counting the differential too). Granny trannies are about there in second gear, and granny gear was intended for starting an abnormally heavy load.
Joe
74 F-350 300-6, EFI manifolds into single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18B, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. Great farm truck!
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Postby Lazy JW » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Harte3 wrote:Real men drive twin stick 4x4, 5x4, etc., "crash" tranny sets :P . No synchro at all for any of the gears and only use the clutch to start or stop 8)


You're telling your age there Harte3 :P :P :lol: I doubt if many of the younger truckers today could properly shift a 5x4 8) 8)
Joe
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Postby Luckyman » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:44 pm

Happiness is an NP-435 with synthetic oil in it and a 3.00 rear gearset. :D
1 "76" F150 RC, LB, 2WD, 300, NP435, 9" open 3.00, special order 2-76/Delivered 4-76. Still "new".

1 "73-79" F150 RC/SS/SB/4WD, "84"-300, T18, NP205, 9" open 3.50, Dana 44 3.50 open, Offy DP, Holley 470, EFI + single 2.5" exhaust. Gathered from 15+ donor/parts trucks. "Fubar". Runs good, safe, still needs details/project continues.
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Postby The Plankster Prankster » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:37 am

Luckyman wrote:Happiness is an NP-435 with synthetic oil in it and a 3.00 rear gearset. :D

used to drive just that with 31x10.5's. wouldn't call it happiness if it's raining outside, but i would on dry roads. this combo had BEAUTIFUL acceleration - thats if you could keep traction - and in the rain i was often beat off the line by various slow-driving grandpa-types because my tires were spinning, regardless of wether i used 1st 2nd or 3rd to take off in - it sitll had more torque than traction. there were parts of town i HAD TO drive in 4x4 because i couldn't take off up the hills - i was spinning tire and sliding backwards on wet pavement.

both of my trucks have NP435's and have never had a tranny problem (except popping out of 2nd while bouncing around too hard off road (that stick is heavy when the truck's bouncing that hard)
83 F250 flatbed 300-6, NP435, 4X4, 5800lbs empty weight
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Postby 56mulberry » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:26 pm

Remembering of course my original reply--the truck is a 2WD shortbed used primarily for driving but with 1st definitely seeming geared a little high for starting up a sloping driveway into traffic with a trailer.on the weekends when it is used to haul the mower around....It would seem the T-18 is still the way to go....?

DO I have to find one that came out of a truck with a 240/300 to have correct bellhousing? And will splines/shafts most likely be correct for our '77 F100 engine/trans/driveshafts if so?

If it becomes too complicated/expensive it might be easier to just slip the crap out of the clutch now and then on the hills (like he is doing anyways now with the 1st gear in that 3-spd) and gradually replace the clutch--that's a pretty simple job in that rig. Just thought it might be easier with a lower first gear eventually. Doug
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Postby superbepro » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:53 pm

56mulberry wrote:Remembering of course my original reply--the truck is a 2WD shortbed used primarily for driving .....

It would seem the T-18 is still the way to go....?

DO I have to find one that came out of a truck with a 240/300 to have correct bellhousing? And will splines/shafts most likely be correct for our '77 F100 engine/trans/driveshafts if so?

If it becomes too complicated/expensive ..... Doug


Please re-read the suggestions mentioned above. A T19 (fully synchronized), a T18 and NP235 (with 1st gear that is non-synchronized and very low) are bolt-ins, and you may be will be able to re-use your truck's existing transmission crossmember. You will also re-use the bellhousing you currently have.
These three transmissions have a fixed yoke on their tailshaft, so likely you will need to change/modify your current driveshaft. The big question is whether you have a 1-piece or 2-piece driveshaft? If you have a 1 piece you need to find a suitable 2-piece driveshaft as well as a center bearing carrier (a pain to remove from donor trucks as it is riveted - and you will need a torch to remove). Regardless of whether you have a 1-piece or 2-piece driveshaft it is very likely that you will also have to pay to have it cut/extend to size and re-balanced. Raul
Raul (in DFW area of Texas)
1978 F100, LWB, 2WD, 300inline, close ratio T-19, 9" rear w/2.75:1
1979 F150, SWB, 4WD, 351M, T-18 & NP205, Dana 44 and 9" axles w/3.50:1
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Postby 56mulberry » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:04 pm

Got it--will start looking and post back with results..DOUG
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Postby Slow » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:49 pm

NP235? You mean NP435?

The t18 and np435 are very similar in all respects. From what I have read the t18 may have a slight advantage in longevity, but not by much. t19 is a bit more advanced with syncro first and some different ratios.
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Postby 56mulberry » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:12 pm

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Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:11 pm

Harte3 wrote:Real men drive twin stick 4x4, 5x4, etc., "crash" tranny sets :P . No synchro at all for any of the gears and only use the clutch to start or stop 8)


That reminds me of the time I sheared the clutch pedal shaft off my 300 / manual van while in Carlisle, PA at a swap meet. All the guys with me thought we were dead.

I drove that van from PA to Michigan, with stops in Ohio, with the clutch fully engaged, using the started motor to start us moving and "crashing" every shift. Stopping at the Turnpike toll booths was a real joy - got lots of bewildered looks from the gatekeepers.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING
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Postby Harte3 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:35 pm

Ouch! That must have been an...interesting trip. The folks that work the "cash box" do get to see some rather different stuff at times. :lol:

And I am getting old. Many new big trucks come with "Auto-shifters" now. Just push a button, let out the clutch and go :shock: .
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.
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Postby Craigwell » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:18 pm

I do know I was able to use the same 1 piece driveshaft from my 133" WB Regular Cab, Long Box truck with both the 3.03 3 speed (column shift) as well as a Rug 4 sp w/OD.

The Np435 has a similar length to both of these, and you might just find you can use the same shaft with your application as well.

An inch or so difference on the slip yoke is ok, as long as you have enough engagement to prevent it slipping off during any rough stuff; or conversely, from binding up on the hilt if it's too long..
1995 F150 4x4 4.9L E4OD Mule / Plow Truck
Gone but not forgotten: 1976 F250 4x4 300 six, NP435. Dana60/44HD 4.10 Traction Lok, EFI Exhaust, 240 Head
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Postby superbepro » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:54 pm

Craigwell wrote:I do know I was able to use the same 1 piece driveshaft from my 133" WB Regular Cab, Long Box truck with both the 3.03 3 speed (column shift) as well as a Rug 4 sp w/OD.

The Np435 has a similar length to both of these, and you might just find you can use the same shaft with your application as well.
An inch or so difference on the slip yoke is ok, as long as ....


It would be great if he could use a 1-piece driveshaft without modifications. One thing I do know and that is that the tailshaft of ALL the T18 and T19 transmissions I have seen has a FIXED yoke, not a slip yoke like the 3.03 and the RUG 4-speed OD. I guess a 1-piece driveshaft could be used if it has the correct "end" to attach to the T18/T19 and some sort of slip joint feature at/or near the rear differential (like the driveshaft on my 1979 F150 4x4). In other words, some modification may still be needed on the driveshaft to accomplish this transmission swap.
Raul (in DFW area of Texas)
1978 F100, LWB, 2WD, 300inline, close ratio T-19, 9" rear w/2.75:1
1979 F150, SWB, 4WD, 351M, T-18 & NP205, Dana 44 and 9" axles w/3.50:1
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Postby zacd » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:34 pm

Call me crazy, but seems like a lot of work for no more than what's being accomplished.

I'd just stick a 3.50 geared chunk in the 9" rear and leave everything else alone.
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Postby 56mulberry » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:08 pm

I suppose it sounds like a lot of work for the trouble but if we want a lower first gear in it while maintaining the highway capabaility and the swap is relatively straightforward then a T18/T19/NP435 trans swap is not that much trouble really. If it costs us $1200 and 40 hours then you are right. But I think I can get the tranny for $100-200 and the driveshaft modded if necessary for that much more (@$200) which will put us in a 4spd with lower first gear for under $500 and prolly do it in a good full Saturday which would be worth the trouble--Doug
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Postby superbepro » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:38 pm

56mulberry wrote:I suppose it sounds like a lot of work for the trouble but if we want a lower first gear in it while maintaining the highway capabaility and the swap is relatively straightforward then a T18/T19/NP435 trans swap is not that much trouble really. If it costs us $1200 and 40 hours then you are right. But I think I can get the tranny for $100-200 and the driveshaft modded if necessary for that much more (@$200) which will put us in a 4spd with lower first gear for under $500 and prolly do it in a good full Saturday which would be worth the trouble--Doug


I paid $100 for my T19 transmission, $100 for the rebuild kit (in most cases not really needed, although it is highly recomended to change at least the front- and tailshaft gaskets and/or seals- BTW, I did rebuilt the trans by myself, in my garage), $50 dollars for a 2-piece driveshaft and center carrier bearing (from junkyard) and $150 for resizing/balancing the driveshaft and new U-joints.

I did re-use my original bellhousing and transmission crossmember.

You will also need to cut a hole in your floor, or if you are lucky and your truck has the bolted transmission "hump" sheetmetal, get a replacement one from a jukyard truck (cost $5-10) that was originally equipped with a 4-speed transmission and/or was 4x4 (will have one extra & offset hole for the transfer case lever).

Check the type and size of the yoke on both your "new" transmission and your 9" differential to see what kind of driveshaft you will need to use/modify. Raul

PS. If you haven'y already seen some pics of my truck and the T-19 trans swap, you can check them at:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery ... umid=15315
Raul (in DFW area of Texas)
1978 F100, LWB, 2WD, 300inline, close ratio T-19, 9" rear w/2.75:1
1979 F150, SWB, 4WD, 351M, T-18 & NP205, Dana 44 and 9" axles w/3.50:1
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