200ci Echo -1955 Rebuild's His 1965 Mustang 200 I6 Block.

This applies only to 200ci
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MPGmustang":9w3k61b9 said:
A stock C4 is not to be underestimated, V8's use the same C4 that the i6's carry and house 200hp and never give any problems. the only difference is the size of bell housing, and torque converter. your stock converter will cover any power increase mods that you add with not problems. the only downside is the stall rpm. I don't understand the complete mechanics of what the stall rpm does but I suspect it's a true 1:1 spin ratio, at a higher rpm.

your current C4 and converter will handle aything you throw at it. it won't hurt it. the only things you need to worry about is the proper vacuum signal and the converter we can help you find the right one. that is why it's suggested to stick with a 112 lobe center to keep as much vacuum as possible for ur stock C4.

I think your C4 will be perfectly capable of handling ANY naturally inspired mods you throw at it. and IMO I believe the stock converter to be fine withur choice of (264/274 112* .450)* cam.
*might be a little lumpy but should idle decently 650-800 rpm

Thank you MPG. The reason I was considering the 110 LC was because of the idle. I wanted a slight lope.

Why you ask??
Strictly appearance:
Example 1:
I’m sitting at the stoplight; my engine has a smooth normal idle. A v8 Corvette stops along side and notices a neat FB Mustang. He thinks hummm cool and drives on..

Example 2:
I’m sitting at the stoplight; my engine has a lope at idle. A v8 Corvette stops along side and notices a cool FB Mustang with the sound of muscle. He thinks hummmm, wonder what’s under the hood. Let me find out when the light turns green. The light turns green, he burns rubber and I just calmly drive off.

I pass him 3 blocks down the road parked getting a speeding ticket…. :mrgreen:

All kidding aside, that was the only reason. I have no vacuum assist accessories other than timing. Not knowing what causes idle lope I just assumed it would be the LC’s.

Now I believe the cam picture is a lot clearer to me.
As I understand now the 264/264-112* will have smooth idle and max vacuum.
The 264/274 112* .450 will have a slight lope and still have good vacuum.
That is all I wanted… every thing else is eye candy..

Now that I have unrestricted access I’m thinking for $360
it might be a good idea to replace the converter with one that has a stall at 3300 rpm.
confused-smiley-013.gif
 
Speaking of appearance’s: when I first restored the car I put dual tail pipes on.
dualexhaust.jpg

At the muffler place the guy said hey this ant no v8 why the dual.

I said I don’t know. Just thought it look good. So he started working the exhaust. Got to the rear and said hey these exhaust don’t belong here. They are in the wrong place. They belong over here.

I said yea I know. I made a mistake when I cut the holes and now I need to fill it. I didn’t want to tell him I did not want to loose those neat little chrome guards below the bumper…

All because I thought it look good… :mrgreen:
 
http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/select ... erter.html

I found this to be the best informative article on torque converters for cars.

I like this right here

so stock would probably be around 1500-1800 rpm, look for one @ 2000-2300 and your cam selection 264/274/ 110* .450 should line up nicely, or stick with your stock casue it should be very close.

my old 'stock' engine had peak torque @ 1200 rpm (140 tq) i did buy the car with a C4 and changed to a T-5. my old stocl converter fit that specification perfectly. I would ask the company on the phone and give them your final cam desion.

my rule of thumb that I used was takin the RPM range of the cam selected and adding 700-1000 rpm to the lowest number, that is where your peak should be around. then match the stall converter to that rpm. (this is not acurate but close to)
 
Thank you MPG..
I'm out of the country at the moment.. (in Cal-e -forn-ya)
I think the 264/264 110 is hanging in as my first choice.
Haven't talked to the machine shop yet. Should know more next week some time..
I will keep everyone up to date with pictures as well..
 
:) I think that the nosecone and the bendix gear can be swapped to match yours.
Then it would be usable.However,I don`t know if the proper items are avialable for your engine for the mini starter.
Check with Mike(AZ Coupe)at Classic Inlines to be sure.He might even have the correct starter that you need.
Leo
 
echo1955":1vdvcu9h said:
rbohm
this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.

The thought never occurred to me to have this work done.
I understand how important anything that spins in a 360* circle be balanced.
I will have mine balanced as well. Thank you rbohm..

The DUI is still an option for me..

rbohm
1: the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
2: the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
3: the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio.
4: for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.

I have a good handle on number 1-2 and 3.

#4 is my next hurdle.
If I can use a 110* lobe separation how can I determine static compression.

static compression is a calculation using this formula;

cylinder volume(aka cv)= cylinder bore x cylinder bore x stroke x .7854(a simplified version of pi x r squared/4)

the formula goes like this;

cv + combustion chamber volume + head gasket volume + piston dome or dish volume(+ if the pistons are dished - if the pistons are domed). this gives you the total volume with the piston at bottom dead center. subtract out the cylinder volume for the total volume at top dead center, then take the total volume and divide it by the volume at top dead center, and that will give you the static compression ratio.

now to confuse you even further, you calculate the head gasket volume just like the cylinder volume.

take my 289 that i am building for instance;

cylinder volume = 4 x 4 x 2.87 x .7854

that number is 36.06ci

to convert that to cc you multiply by 16.38, which comes to 590.9cc roughly.

so my total volume is

590.0cc + chamber volume of 58cc + 0 piston volume + head gasket volume 11.6cc + deck height volume 4.1cc = 664.6cc

divide that number by 73.7

and i get 664.6/73.7= 9.0:1 compression ratio.

i hope that helps, or not :LOL: :LOL:

as for balancing the rotating assembly, i agree that it is a prudent thing to do, as it eliminates any tolerance stack that can occur with using the factory balance.
 
woodbutcher":1ywqb36i said:
:) I think that the nosecone and the bendix gear can be swapped to match yours.
Then it would be usable.However,I don`t know if the proper items are avialable for your engine for the mini starter.
Check with Mike(AZ Coupe)at Classic Inlines to be sure.He might even have the correct starter that you need.
Leo

Thank you woodbutcher.. My starter shaft measures 0.47" so the chances of the parts I need being available are probably slim to none.. but it sure don’t hurt to ask around..
 
bubba22349":34cgggau said:
I think you need to look for one that would fit an FE Ford their are some made like this one :unsure:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html


hahahahahah yea you would find that one.. I saw it had a 3 bolt pattern but the darn price looked like it wouldn't fit... :mrgreen:
Well my momma always said
""Life is like a bowl of mixed fruit. Some you like and others you don't like.""

On this one I may not care for the price but it sure beats a rolling start down hill... :mrgreen:
Thanks (y)
 
by rbohm on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:05 am

static compression is a calculation using this formula;

cylinder volume(aka cv)= cylinder bore x cylinder bore x stroke x .7854(a simplified version of pi x r squared/4)

the formula goes like this;

cv + combustion chamber volume + head gasket volume + piston dome or dish volume(+ if the pistons are dished - if the pistons are domed). this gives you the total volume with the piston at bottom dead center. subtract out the cylinder volume for the total volume at top dead center, then take the total volume and divide it by the volume at top dead center, and that will give you the static compression ratio.

now to confuse you even further, you calculate the head gasket volume just like the cylinder volume.

take my 289 that i am building for instance;

cylinder volume = 4 x 4 x 2.87 x .7854

that number is 36.06ci

to convert that to cc you multiply by 16.38, which comes to 590.9cc roughly.

so my total volume is

590.0cc + chamber volume of 58cc + 0 piston volume + head gasket volume 11.6cc + deck height volume 4.1cc = 664.6cc

divide that number by 73.7

and i get 664.6/73.7= 9.0:1 compression ratio.

i hope that helps, or not :LOL: :LOL:

as for balancing the rotating assembly, i agree that it is a prudent thing to do, as it eliminates any tolerance stack that can occur with using the factory balance.

Well I would have to say Or Not: :mrgreen:
I’m not doubting the formula.. I’m doubting my ability to come to the correct CR.. using any formula with out professional help..

I was reading the tech sheet and mike had the deck height milled to 0.
I believe my current deck height is .019”

I do not want to exceed 9.5:1 CR.
When I talk to my machinist I need to be able to tell him what I want..
And frankly I don’t know what I need there..
The machine shop said they would need about 2 weeks before they could start. They have had it 2 weeks now.

My time is running close to the need to know…

So let me try this.
If I do not zero the deck:
Pistons are .030 over.
I use dished pistons:
The stroke is 3.126

Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..
 
Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..

Not likely :unsure: Stock your 200 was 8.7 to 1 the heads were supposed to be a chamber volume of about 52 CC so that will be about the same. With the composite head gasket we have now at around .050 or twice what the .025 stock head gasket was. If you zero deck it than that takes care of .019 of that extra so still an increases .006 in volume the .030 bore will balance that some so most likely close to a wash. With a dish piston you will be close to the stock 8.7 or less (you would need to measure the head CC to know for sure). Is only a guess without CC's but think you would probably need to have a flat top piston to get too your 9.5 to 1. (y)
 
bubba22349":3hubk6zw said:
Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..

Not likely :unsure: Stock your 200 was 8.7 to 1 the heads were supposed to be a chamber volume of about 52 CC so that will be about the same. With the composite head gasket we have now at around .050 or twice what the .025 stock head gasket was. If you zero deck it than that takes care of .019 of that extra so still an increases .006 in volume the .030 bore will balance that some so most likely close to a wash. With a dish piston you will be close to the stock 8.7 or less (you would need to measure the head CC to know for sure). Is only a guess without CC's but think you would probably need to have a flat top piston to get too your 9.5 to 1. (y)

O man thanks bubba. (y)
So have the block zero out and use flat pistons..
Would that get me to 9+:1 ?
 
That would be my guessament. Think you said before you are using the CI alum. head right? Maybe they will measure the chambers for you and then math is not hard if you know the volumes. :nod:
 
Thank you bubba. (y) I will be using CI AL heads..
I feel a lot more comfortable.. So if I give the volume specs to Mike he can tell me what I need for his heads to get me up to 9+:1…
 
I will be using an electric fuel pump emergency cut off switch. I found this one
HERE

Any thoughts out there on using this one or another one??.
 
While scrounging around the web I found THIS SITE:

Using their Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator and input my Number:
Cylinders: 6
Bore: 3.71 (.030 over)
Stroke: 3.126
Rod Length: 4.715
SCR: 9.4:1

Using a cam 264/264 110* LC with IVC 62*
It gives me the fallowing:

Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
Effective stroke is 2.50 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.52:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 146.67 PSI.
Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 7.52 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 71

Looking at CI’s tech sheet:
SCR_DCR.jpg

There is no recommendation for a 62* Intake valve close.

What am I missing??
 
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