Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Cool23":faty1cuo said:
MustangSix":faty1cuo said:
Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :eek:

What does this have to do with the loss of vehicle manufacturing in this country ?

1, 30 per resident Those figures sound very odd. Do you think we have more roads than people ?
As for 500hp did you not invent Drag Racing in the USA. We also have the long white Dyno called Lake Gairdner that is bigger and better than Bonneville.

2, They only chase the ones they need to and yes the bill comes in the mail or you front court and if that fails the Sherrif finds you and clamps your car until it is paid.

3, No but then to get a gun here requires much more than getting a drivers license and why shoot a camera when it has digitally photographed you. A paintball gun would have better effect :devilish:

One just needs to wear a mask and get a Baseball bat.
 
Cool23":21hapd4p said:
MustangSix":21hapd4p said:
Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :eek:

What does this have to do with the loss of vehicle manufacturing in this country ?

1, 30 per resident Those figures sound very odd. Do you think we have more roads than people ?
As for 500hp did you not invent Drag Racing in the USA. We also have the long white Dyno called Lake Gairdner that is bigger and better than Bonneville.

2, They only chase the ones they need to and yes the bill comes in the mail or you front court and if that fails the Sherrif finds you and clamps your car until it is paid.

3, No but then to get a gun here requires much more than getting a drivers license and why shoot a camera when it has digitally photographed you. A paintball gun would have better effect :devilish:

Tongue in cheek humor......

I suppose my point is that if you make the driving experience too tedious and fraught with regulation and oversight, then it ceases to be an enjoyable experience. Receiving a ticket from an automaton for exceeding the speed limit by only a mile or two has to be irritating.

When driving becomes too irritating, you simply choose the least expensive appliance that will accomplish the task, much like buying a refrigerator. At that point, what does it matter where the car is built? Lowest cost to achieve a given result. Pity.
 
We all hate the red light cameras and the speeding cameras. Given the sense of humor you may enjoy this and yes it is a true story.

A camera car was using a truck rest area to photograph speeding cars as they came over a rise.
Problem was he was partly blocking the area. Typical Aussie Truckie comes along in his B Double and parks beside the camera car blocking him in. A short time later the Truckie has a tap on his truck window and is asked to move. The response is "No Mate I am on a designated rest break according to the log book and if I move now I would be in violation and it is you that should not be parked in this location". Result Camera car packed up and moved off after he worked out how to get out from being blocked in. I am sure the camera car was never used in that location again. Truckie used all the rules in his favor and was within the law as to what he was doing. Camera car was technically illegally parked in what was designated as Truck rest area and not for cars.

:LOL: :D
 
Use the law! Here in Florida, the courts have ruled that it is permissible under our First Amendment rights to flash our lights to warn other drivers of speed traps. If the objective is to slow people down, then I figure I'm assisting the cops by doing so. If they object, then their intent must simply be to raise revenue.

But back to the subject, I still fail to understand how the automakers will be able to respond to local market conditions. Driving in Oz is not at all like Japan, China, or Singapore. And there are customer expectations that surely has to drive design criteria.

Just as the Japanese and Germans eventually had to move design centers and production facilities to the US, I suspect that eventually they will need to do the same in Australia.
 
The interesting thing to come out of much of it is the Design centres are being kept here by both Ford and GM. Ford Australia design team recently had some input into the new Mustang.
 
Cool23":18be3hcd said:
The interesting thing to come out of much of it is the Design centres are being kept here by both Ford and GM. Ford Australia design team recently had some input into the new Mustang.

Unrelated to the detail of my topic sentence, but in positive response to your post Cool23. Proof that Ford Australia's design talent and Government money has made the T6 (a Mazda BT50 and Aussie Ranger) the standout success

http://www.caradvice.com.au/ford/ranger/

If you'd like something positive and affirming in tone, this is certainly it.

Note left hand drive in Thailand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn4hi_n0mFI


In right hand drive form, it crashed like a champ making an NCAP 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44UXH4AvOnY

What gets me is that AutoAlliance Thailand (ATT) manufacturing joint venture will boost production by 20,000 units annually, taking total utility capacity at the Rayong-based plant to 140,000 per year...
 
I was surprised to see the pricing for the upmarket versions. I think the total market here in the US for a Ranger priced at $55,000 US is exactly zero.......
 
Point taken. On the basis of the dollar value of various ores, Aussie beef, property, and the investment prospects, the Aussie dollar has failed to collapse against the US dollar, with a 1 Aussie buck 0.93 US dollars, so the base 2.2 ins about 32 K US, and the upmarket 3.2 is 53 K.They are all diesel,no gasoline. A US sourced or Aussie based i4 or i5 based on the i6 won't sell, but would reduce the cost significantly.

The cost of the T6 is is more a reflection on how bankrupt the US is...outsourcing is a real solution to the problems of the US economy and personal debt issues. In Australia, its the intense cost that forces many to think that perhaps the job market and production costings needs to collapse in a similar manner to the USA. The unions, and public have negotiated, and the cost is what it is. The alternative is a Kiwi or Dotcom style aggressive collapse scenario, where everyone becomes a Mexican with a cell phone, and un-unionised to chase the illusion of reducing costs to 1 forth of present. That won't happen; unlike New Zealand, Australia isn't full of fraudsters looking for tax breaks, and based on health, safety and environmental matters, Australia can never go back to the low levels of health, safety, environmental and worker remuneration...its a developed country, not Bhopal or Rayong or Shanghai.

As stated, the Germans would just raise the price, and over feature the Aussie Ranger, and then reuse the parts for sell-off to other countries by creating patents to sell.

Without the support and will of its owner, Ford Australia has no chance of doing that.

Anyway, diplomacy has been undertaken, and on the basis of just the cost of steel, aluminum and labor, the Aussie car is dead as a mass produced entity, despite the desire of other countries to buy into cars the Aussie likes to drive, Ford Austraila failed to get pemission to build the Ranger and Focus in Oz.
 
Just for comparison, I went to the Ford USA site and "built" the priciest F150 I could. I was hard pressed to hit $55k, even including every option in the book on the most upscale model they list. It ends up with all kinds of stuff like a 5.0 V8, 20" special wheels and tires, leather & alacantra seats, NAV, moonroof, and tons of other little nonsense things.

I don't think you can attribute the price difference entirely to the cost of labor. The materials alone must approach 80% of the cost of a vehicle. The total amount of direct labor hours is probably about the same no matter where you build the car. So even if you cut the cost of labor in half, it's a very small percentage of total costs. That leaves only the indirect costs to attribute - Overhead, fringe, general & administrative costs, etc. Then add in profit. I doubt that Ford Aus is earning a usury rate on each vehicle, so it really has to come down to the overhead efficiency of the operation.

This really gets too complex to elaborate on in a forum like this, but I truly suspect that it's not the cost of the workforce, but rather all the non-labor costs that drove all the auto manufacturers out of Oz. If that's truly the case, they will find themselves loosing money no matter where the cars are built.
 
You forget that globally whilst you had a downturn in finances in the US we had a boom here in Australia (Mostly export in Mining and Iron Ore) and when things leveled out again the playing field changed and you could build the same vehicle in Asia a lot cheaper.

You can build many things in Asia much cheaper. Look at firms like Bob Drake Reproductions for example as 90% of what he does is made in Asia cheaper than he can do it in the US and as he is in it to make money as he produces product where he can make a better profit. Ford Australia have done the same thing.

Many places making parts for Ford here are looking to the future and diversifying now so many believe Ford Australia will fold well before the date they gave.
 
MustangSix":27ki373j said:
That leaves only the indirect costs to attribute - Overhead, fringe, general & administrative costs, etc. Then add in profit. I doubt that Ford Aus is earning a usury rate on each vehicle, so it really has to come down to the overhead efficiency of the operation.

This really gets too complex to elaborate on in a forum like this, but I truly suspect that it's not the cost of the workforce, but rather all the non-labor costs that drove all the auto manufacturers out of Oz. If that's truly the case, they will find themselves loosing money no matter where the cars are built.


Wow, you've actually hit on the fact that the cost of running the operation doesn't work out unless the whole supply chain cost is reduced. In Australia, Ford and Dana Corp set up drive-line operations in close proximity, in there own pockets. But yet again, there was no third supplier. In the old days, the BTR 4 speed was sent off to Volvo on the 760/850, S50, and the Maserati GT3200, but now, the cost of selling gearboxes is to great, and uncompetitive against the German ZF boxes. Yet Ford makes ZF gearboxes in America for a vastly reduced cost.

When Ford bought engines from Tiawan, and Toyo Kogyo Japan before the mid 90's 51% share take over, Ford Australia started failing to make money from Mazda for its Autorama Fords, the Laser (323/GLC), Telstar (626), Courier (B 1600/1800/200/2200/2600), Econovan/Spectron (Bongo). The Aussie Dollar to Yen parity was the whole equation, not supply chain cost.



I've worked for years with allianceing and lump sum contracts, they really do work if you build things down to a price, where you run teams like a semi autogenous ball mill; getting people together, and playing them off so there talents to make proffit are headlined.Its classic Whiz Kids stuff. But in an American setting, the subcontractors just go broke, and then the whole supply chain the needs to be radically shaken up by setting up alternate bids and contracts. The Ford motor company just outsources to fix things to other states, countries or other continents if the price isn't right, or it innovates a cost effective solution from hardcore Saturday brainstorming sessions. The crtical mass makes the savings, and you American unions workers are smart enough to figure through solutions in the best interests of share holders, even if its hard.

I fail to see how things can be radically shaken up in Australia. Like New Zealand and Japan, actual productivities are about 25% less than in Detriot USA.

You can't cut the price of the supply chain on parts like Ford did with the up to 40% foreign Explorer or Ranger, which had German engines and Belgian transmissions made in formerly Ford owned plants from war reparations. Now that's smart management, a real Deaborn Ace. Same as the outsourced dash on the smaller Fords... there is money to be saved by outsourcing, but also money to be made when the outsourced item is perfected at vasltly reduced cost.

And that is why Dearbon turns its back on Broadmedows...its a pencil sharping exercise, and Ford's organic survival demands it.


Sadly, the knowledge of how to use the basic tools and amortizations of them were around to transfer the Geelong I6 to the smaller fwd and diesel requirements for a generation of Fords, but its the whole cost of the operation that is important. Put simply, the outpost in Australia has poor economies of scale due to geographic location. The cost per dollar to do things goes down the closer you are to your markets, and if you ore is closer to the market, you should reap benefits. In this instance, a simple plan for 100% plant utilization was scuppered by what Ford calls direct costs.

https://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 68&start=0
 
Interesting to see that Ford has a market in the USA for the Ford Ranger (Diesel Mazda based 4x4) that is presently sold in Australia and built in Thailand yet has no plans to sell that small Mazda based vehicle in the US market. I say interesting as many from the US see this vehicle here and want it in the US.

What on earth is Ford doing to its market ?
 
Well, the Ranger has been gone from the US market for some time now, ending production in 2011.

Ford has been toying with the idea of bringing it back, but with price points as low as they are for the F150, why bother to sell a Ranger? Retail pricing for F150's starts at under $25k. That means you could probably buy one for about $22-23k.

There's consumer demand for a smaller truck like a Ranger, but you can't build and sell it cheap enough to make sense.
 
MustangSix":ng2f6c78 said:
Well, the Ranger has been gone from the US market for some time now, ending production in 2011.

Ford has been toying with the idea of bringing it back, but with price points as low as they are for the F150, why bother to sell a Ranger? Retail pricing for F150's starts at under $25k. That means you could probably buy one for about $22-23k.

There's consumer demand for a smaller truck like a Ranger, but you can't build and sell it cheap enough to make sense.

The Ranger we have is nothing like the F150 and from what I am told the US market has nothing like it. A mate here has one and had some US Hot Rod Friends visited and stay with him recently and they said they have nothing like the Thailand built Mazda based Ford Ranger in the US. All your pickup stuff is much bigger.
 
.[/quote]
A mate here has one and had some US Hot Rod Friends visited and stay with him recently and they said they have nothing like the Thailand built Mazda based Ford Ranger in the US. All your pickup stuff is much bigger.[/quote]

It's not actually Mazda based, more the Mazda is Ford based :)
 
Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.
 
MustangSix":16plyqsk said:
Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.


Another reason is the full size F150 gets the same, or better, gas mileage than the Ranger for just a little more money.
 
Fingers":y9vg2ya7 said:
It's not actually Mazda based, more the Mazda is Ford based :)

Well, Ford own a share of Mazda. Mazda would have designed it.

MustangSix":y9vg2ya7 said:
Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.

You have the big pickups and we have the smaller Japanese Hinos, Mazdas (Used to be sold here as Ford Trader) and Isuzu and they sell better as Ford found when they tried to re-introduce the F Series here.


rocklord":y9vg2ya7 said:
Another reason is the full size F150 gets the same, or better, gas mileage than the Ranger for just a little more money.

The quality of the two may shock you as well as the American that visited here felt the Mazda based Bravo - Ford Ranger being Diesel was better on fuel and a far better quality vehicle than the slightly bigger US built petrol engined US pickup. The US market is missing out on theses smaller built Diesel pickups and you can see that mentioned in many magazines like Diesel Power in the US.
 
Cool23":6zlynjcw said:
Interesting to see that Ford has a market in the USA for the Ford Ranger (Diesel Mazda based 4x4) that is presently sold in Australia and built in Thailand yet has no plans to sell that small Mazda based vehicle in the US market. I say interesting as many from the US see this vehicle here and want it in the US.

What on earth is Ford doing to its market ?


Ford should be like Toyta, able to make great margins with the prices from a lower screw together costs. Taht in theory should allow agressive marketing of the BT50 as well as the Ranger. In practice, though, its the same bungle as with the Mondeo, they make it the preeminent replacement model, then fail to support it in the market with adequate models and body types. When a whole valid model misses out on a body style, its in decline, and a whole model line, then its a cost or supply issue.

I suspect Ford and Toyota is in a major cost/supply bind with the unstable situation in Thailand

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/236 ... rtial-law/
 
I am sure that deserves a reply but it would be great if you corrected your spelling so I knew what much of it meant :beer:

As for the situation in Thailand lets try to keep Politics out of this as best we can. I am sure the Auto workers in that country would be well looked after by the companies as if they lose production then that is also a global loss in sales.
 
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