Roller timing chain on a 250

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mike1157

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I managed to get my engine assembled this past weekend. The machine work done to this engine, and the small job machining required to do the things I wanted to do was extensive to say the least.

But, I digress. On to the title of the thread.

I have fitted this engine w/ a solid roller cam. No small feat in of itself, but again, not what this is about. It is related to it however, as the spring pressures the stock timing chain would've been exposed to concerned me. ( 420lbs open BTW)

I learned about the lack of other than stock timing chains long after the cam was ground, and shipped from Australia, otherwise, I would've just had the cam grinder modify the cam snout accordingly to accomodate a SBF timing gear. That would've been Nice, and easy.
But that's not the way I do things.
Seems I never, ever, ever do things Nice, and easy....... Seems I want to do things....... Rough.

( Did you like my Ike and Tina thingy there?)

Doing things "rough" means trying to drill a billet roller cam after it has been subjected to it's heat treat process.
The difference between a cam intended for a 250, and a small block ford is significant when it comes to trying to make the gear from the SBF fit the 250 cam. The first process involved turning the snout down to fit the SBF gear.
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Fortunately, this cam was induction hardned, as opposed to a complete through harden that would've made the cam unmachinable. Turning the snout down was no problem, as t wasn't subjected to the same treatment the lobes and journals were.
Drilling the cam face for the dowel pin wan't so easy.
The closer to center, the softer the metal. Starting out w/ a small .125 bit drilled easy enough, but, as the bit got bigger the diameter got closer, and closer to the hardened outside radius of the journal. By the time we were at the finish drill size to accomodate the dowel, the bit was chattering, and groaning. Needless to say, it didn't work.

I bailed on that plan, and drilled two smaller .250 holes through the cam gear, into the cam face. I figured that two smaller dowels would be stronger than one big one anyway.

The stock thrust plate was too thin, so we had to make a new one. I believe that the thickness comes out to be .240, but my cam gear has a torrington bearing for a thrust washer, so different gears will probably make that measurement change.
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This is where things get a little dodgy.

Does10's has already done this swap, and he chose to modify the SBF chain by removing one link and using a master link to put it back together. Originally, I tried the same path, but had a real problem trying to find a link to match the Dido brand chain that came in my Summit brand kit.

After about three days and a bazillion phone calls however, I found a source for the right chain that actually came as a complete piece. Turns out that a 69-78 Toyota Corrolla w/ a certain engine uses this chain. The source told me to just go to autozone, and ask the guy at the counter for a Melling 3Dr56 double roller chain.

Or he could just sell me one for 15 bucks.

I chose "B".

Additional modifications are required to the crank, and the crank gear after that. The SBF gear has a shoulder that is about .300. This shoulder makes the gear stand way off installed conventionally for that reason. Does10s just flipped the gear backwards. I chose to mill off the shoulder.
Either way, whether you flip the gear does10s style, or machine it off like I did, The crank still has t be turned an additional .050 to allow the gear to sit far enough back to line up properly.
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It fits like stock after you go through all of the above. The chain is perfect, just loose enough to allow you to install it.

Now, about the crank gear. I'm also using a SBF harmonic balancer. Conveniently enough, it's about .300 longer than the 250 balancer, so machining the .300 off of the crank gear would've had to happen one way or the other in order for the balancer to fit anyway.
One last "required" modification is the keyway on the crank. It's way too short and does not extend rearward enough to safely secure the gear given that you have to move it back even further. I had my machinist extend the keyway the full length of the crank snout to be safe.
 
Why would you just copy anyone else? Ford went through exactly the same malaise in 1968 when the 250 and 351C were tooled up, and found that the stock Windsor bits just didn't fit.

That's because Ford Dearborn boys back in the 60's had some broader plans.


The 300 thou shoulder removal, either from the crank or from the timing set with the 250 to SBF Windsor cam gear swap is something Ford lads created in 1968 when the 250 and 335 Cleveland got designed. The 335 series 302C/351C/351M/400 engines and 250 needed a lot of extra space to fit the stock Windsor parts in those engines, and the little Windsor has a lot of space with its nice open front design. The longer 250's big ass balancer and water pump pushes things out a little. The Cleveland, Modified's and 400's big front cover similarly caused the stock components not to fit, so they just changed trimmed back the timing gear. I'd say the US 250 and 335 series timing gears were planned to be the same back in the day

My mates who do NASCAR and ProStock engines find this issue also a when you attempt to swap Windsor verses 335 Cleveland parts into SBF Windsors...the stock race block Ford Motorsport makes is a Cleveland/Windsor capable block, but it has a crank shoulder for the Windsor balancer and timing gear which then has to be removed when a Cleveland timing gear or balancer is used. Nothing 8 hours of lathe work can't fix.
 
xctasy":3gxa9gk7 said:
Why would you just copy anyone else? Ford went through exactly the same malaise in 1968 when the 250 and 351C were tooled up, and found that the stock Windsor bits just didn't fit.

That's because Ford Dearborn boys back in the 60's had some broader plans.


The 300 thou shoulder removal, either from the crank or from the timing set with the 250 to SBF Windsor cam gear swap is something Ford lads created in 1968 when the 250 and 335 Cleveland got designed. The 335 series 302C/351C/351M/400 engines and 250 needed a lot of extra space to fit the stock Windsor parts in those engines, and the little Windsor has a lot of space with its nice open front design. The longer 250's big ass balancer and water pump pushes things out a little. The Cleveland, Modified's and 400's big front cover similarly caused the stock components not to fit, so they just changed trimmed back the timing gear. I'd say the US 250 and 335 series timing gears were planned to be the same back in the day

My mates who do NASCAR and ProStock engines find this issue also a when you attempt to swap Windsor verses 335 Cleveland parts into SBF Windsors...the stock race block Ford Motorsport makes is a Cleveland/Windsor capable block, but it has a crank shoulder for the Windsor balancer and timing gear which then has to be removed when a Cleveland timing gear or balancer is used.
Nothing 8 hours of lathe work can't fix.
Pfft. Tell me about it.

eb56b0f4-0c36-4af8-a07f-327169148529_zps240808d4.jpg

It was three days at the job shop. The cam, crank and gear was day one,The engine was day two, and surfacing the mating surface of my poor old warped turbo manifold, day 3.
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The block was machined on the deck for the dowel pins that secure the xflow head, I'm re-routing the water to 5 different points of entry, and using an electric pump. The discs will get drilled, and tapped w/ three 1/4 bolts holding it in the perimeter, and a 1/2NPT hole in the middle.
 
Lol.


The later OHC ran totally ledged with no water to the passenger side just like yours.




The non cross flow US 250 block is a nice base to use.
 
Posting here is a waste of my time. If it's not about a one bbl 1946 rebuild, or curving my "dizzy", then the things I've done are beyond the common interest. :cry:
 
mike1157":697iny8v said:
Posting here is a waste of my time. If it's not about a one bbl 1946 rebuild, or curving my "dizzy", then the things I've done are beyond the common interest. :cry:
I'm glad you are feeling that way....I thought it was just me! (y)
 
Come on Mike, I think this is awesome! I'm in awe of what your doing with that 250, way beyond my skill set. Over the top :beer:
 
xctasy":13p8krln said:
:unsure: It's because your iridescent brilliance has gazumped everyone else. EVERYONE. We are all potatoes compare to you.

I'm sure geniuses from Albert E to Frank Z, if they had posted there excellence on an internet forum, would just get a stunned silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrNatBx9soQ

With regard to modifying the cam and gear to allow for a better timing chain, save for finding a complete chain, I've done nothing different from what Does10's has already done. (At least that's what the thread is about). Look at the responses, and replies he got after doing that vs the cricket noise that came from the picture set I've posted. I guess after one guy modifies a cam, & gear and chain to fit a 250, any other attempt gets a yawn.

I originally thought that it was because I was posting this stuff in the wrong place, but it seems that every venue is just as stodgy as this one.

I get more comments on V8 forums on this build where there is nothing anybody can take from it than what I get here. Modifications to an inline six like this one has had has no other venue other than here to be appreciated, and/or learned from. If nobody is commenting, then to me, nobody cares.

If nobody cares,......then why bother? That's my thoughts.

And in retrospect:
I get it that the build isn't for everyone here. I wouldn't have my feathers so ruffled if this wasn't the first time I've spent 20-30 minutes posting stuff to this board that only has Dean replying to it.

.
 
mike1157":1fs5m5rb said:
Posting here is a waste of my time. If it's not about a one bbl 1946 rebuild, or curving my "dizzy", then the things I've done are beyond the common interest. :cry:

Well, it is not for me. I REALLY enjoy following what you are doing.
 
enjoyin this & the other threads, esp. the pics, the Oz personalities, ford car pics from Down-Under.
I'm not quick on the draw tho (getting to read the orig post or responding to them).
Got some machine time in ('70s & '80s), hardly any mechanic experience.

Coming here is an offering of sorts, for me. (or knowledge building for home use). No expectation of return. Nice surprise when there is some...

Keep up the good wrk and thanks for bringin me along. I thought U were just documenting things, didn't understand you wanted feedback. (like 1 fella said 'beyond my skill set', just watchin).
 
chad":3dmactz3 said:
enjoyin this & the other threads, esp. the pics, the Oz personalities, ford car pics from Down-Under.
I'm not quick on the draw tho (getting to read the orig post or responding to them).
Got some machine time in ('70s & '80s), hardly any mechanic experience.

Coming here is an offering of sorts, for me. (or knowledge building for home use). No expectation of return. Nice surprise when there is some...

Keep up the good wrk and thanks for bringin me along. I thought U were just documenting things, didn't understand you wanted feedback. (like 1 fella said 'beyond my skill set', just watchin).

Every preacher needs a congregation to feed back the occasional "amen to that, brother".
Otherwise he doesn't know he's getting through to his peoples. :)
 
I for one is following your build, i am into the more extreme, no autolight 1100’s and little 264 cams for me, I love what your doing, I would love to replicate some old school stuff. Like the motors on front of Hot Rod May 1960 for one.
 
"...If nobody is commenting, then to me, nobody cares...."
sorry, didn't realize you sought that. hard to tell w/ an on-line community.
May B if we had the 'props' signifiers like on the FTE site you could see & display all the back slaps and hi fives.
Folks click a button and it adds a lill box next to their name on all subsequent posts.
(y)
 
mike1157":1lp0imf9 said:
xctasy":1lp0imf9 said:
:unsure: It's because your iridescent brilliance has gazumped everyone else. EVERYONE. We are all potatoes compare to you.

I'm sure geniuses from Albert E to Frank Z, if they had posted there excellence on an internet forum, would just get a stunned silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrNatBx9soQ

With regard to modifying the cam and gear to allow for a better timing chain, save for finding a complete chain, I've done nothing different from what Does10's has already done. (At least that's what the thread is about). Look at the responses, and replies he got after doing that vs the cricket noise that came from the picture set I've posted. I guess after one guy modifies a cam, & gear and chain to fit a 250, any other attempt gets a yawn.

I originally thought that it was because I was posting this stuff in the wrong place, but it seems that every venue is just as stodgy as this one.

I get more comments on V8 forums on this build where there is nothing anybody can take from it than what I get here. Modifications to an inline six like this one has had has no other venue other than here to be appreciated, and/or learned from. If nobody is commenting, then to me, nobody cares.

If nobody cares,......then why bother? That's my thoughts.

And in retrospect:
I get it that the build isn't for everyone here. I wouldn't have my feathers so ruffled if this wasn't the first time I've spent 20-30 minutes posting stuff to this board that only has Dean replying to it.

.

i like what you have done. does10s did his roller chain build in a slightly different way than you did. you might not be getting the same response he did because he did it first, but you just gave an alternative to splicing in a link in a chain.

i am thinking of making this post a sticky so that others can always find it.
 
mike1157":275g8x2x said:
......Every preacher needs a congregation to feed back the occasional "amen to that, brother".
Otherwise he doesn't know he's getting through to his peoples. :)


Dean, pushed into the crowed by a bunch of scared F*M*C* i6 car nuts, is forced to be honorary spokesman...

Nah, its not the same. You've brought a Uzzi and Stinger Missile Launcher into Sunday Mass. People are goin'...wtf?

Actually, Mike W (azcoupe) needs to have not an amen post, but a wtf button, and me and everyone else would be pushin' it every five seconds you download your post.


I've seen you stuff, its copied else-ware wholesale, and really messes people up. How do you respond to someone who says something so outlandish, so wild, so whoa man, and then brings in a magic vehicular artifact from Willie Wonkers Chocolate factory. We ask a question, and you give us an instant perfect answer like you rehearsed it for 238 years, and we are all grandpa George's going like...."sorry we asked!".

Or those jc moments when the Sanhedrin ask some nutty carpeter about how he proposed to rebuild a temple that couldn't rebuilt in 40 years...in just three days.

Or when he said he had food none knew about and the rest of the disciples say somethin' like "oooh, is it because we forgot the grocery hamper again?". So were all kinda feeling a few sandwiches short of the full picnic, Mike, if you get my drift.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snB3vmY60Dk

But you do it all without oompah lumpahs.

I wanna know Where The Freak Are Your Oompah Lumpahs?, Mike.

WTFAYOL?

Its electrickery, bah!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ho8di4ywQ

2-wayne-and-garth-not-worthy.jpg


Mike, your not just insane, but multi-choice now,

you must be
1) an "in league evil brother",
2). or some kinda savant,
3). Or a some kind of prophet
4). Or a Greatest American Hero who has found a Ford Workshop Manual that has fallen out of a UFO in Area 51.
5) There ain't no way your just a welder...

I'm leaning towards 4...


whatever, we love it...


Dean then runs away and hides under an i6 early bronco in the fetal position at chad's place


Fordsix performance, I herewith renounce my honorary spokesman role
 
Uhhh,......thanks? :unsure:

I have no Oompah Loompahs, because obviously you have eaten them all.

And now you're sugar rushing all over the place :rolflmao:


More engine junk.

You guys remember Frank-N-Pan? The merging of two different six cylinder pans ( one fox 3.3, and one maverick 250) to create one pan right?

Well this week I had a chance to finish it up, and ck it for leaks (which it did).
Finishing it up meant that I needed to add drain plugs to the "wings". an -10 oil drain return, and a dipstick tube opening for some future dipstick.
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In keeping w/my reanimating things back from the dead, I also "cobbled" an extension of the 3.3 fox pick up tube. When I first dug this thing out of the old engine parts box it was full of sludge and chunks of old gaskets. I completely took the thing apart to be sure that there wasn't some other engine destroying piece of s hit in there, and put it back together w/ this redneck piece of black plumbing pipe.
What can I say,...it works.
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I also undertook the fabrication of an aluminum valve cover, since none can be had for this thing.
I started off by hand bending .250 wall 2" 6061 flat bar over a piece of rollbar tubing. I made two sides and butted them up against two pieces of alum dowel. Then.......................................
Glued the two pieces together.
After that shi t was dry, I reinforced the back side w/ a metal mesh, and added more epoxy to the patch. Then I cut a top out of .125 wall stuff, and glued and clamped the lid to the base. The next day, I took it apart, ran my router over the outside to create a radius, and we have the beginnings of a VC.
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Using the two holes on each end as locators, I drilled the rest of the holes through the top.
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It's not good enough to polish (because the lid shifted while it was glued, leaving a parting line exposed) so I'll paint it orange like the rest of the engine. Maybe I'll put some fins on it to jazz it up like my intake,..I'm just glad I have a way to cover the head.
 
I am going to cast a finned valve cover for the crossflow's, even though there will probably be no market for one.
 
plenty of sheet metal covers for crossflow heads down under Mike, another guy i know will CNC a billet one....for a price
 
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