No oil pressure at 4000 rpm

So the old Granada is back together and purrs like a kitten - no leaks, no misses, all good. The other day I had enough time on the new top end so I decided to run it up to 4000 rpm. Oil light came on and the top started knocking loud. Pulled the valve cover and the distributor. Everything looked visibly good on the valve train. The hex drive for the oil pump was intact and the distributor drive gear was perfect and tight. I used a drill on the pump and watched the oil flow to the top end also perfect. So it put it back together and installed a mechanical oil guage. Started and ran beautiful and took it for a 30 minute cruise. Then tonight I took it up to 4 grand again. Top end rattled and the oil gauge went to ZERO!

What the heck am I missing here? I don't want to wreck this thing. Is it possible that the oil pump pressure valve is sticking open? That or head gasket? I see a tiny bit of moisture between the head and the deck, just barely, but there is no oil in the coolant. You can imagine how much I would like to hear you guys thoughts on this. Wish me luck!!

Well, you said it was back together. Why not start from the beginning and tell us what you did so we can see if anything jumps out at us.

Before you do anything, you need to check the oil quality, so if you've decided to change it, keep the orginal oil.


Two things.


1st. Oil starvation due to windage, and inadequate bleed back. Happens with some kinds of edge oriface hydraulic lifters in a 250 with its ability for its almost 4" stroke engine to totally airate a whole sump of oil into thousands of tiny globolar spheres.


Over fill the sump one quart, and reprime. Take it to 4000 rpm again.


If you've chaged oil weight, or up rated the oil pump, or had a rebuild, there is a possiablity of this happening.


Its why the Aussies did such a huge trade in custom engine sumps for upgraded in line sixes.


2 nd . The pump pickup screen should be new. If its not, it won't be anodised, and some running in particulates might have clogged it.

Get a sample of the oil. Take it for an ASTM ash test. It'll tell you if you have excessive particulates. The amount of metal in suspension is indexed against a standard amount.

Is there a bypass valve on the oil pump on these cars? In others I've worked on there is a simple valve which prevents the pump from overpressuring the system - sometimes the spring holding the valve closed is damaged and after pressure gets to Xpsi the valve opens, bleeding off pressure long before it should.

...

All good stuff. I did the top end only and added adjustable rockers without the bleedback on the shaft. Milled the head .060. No PCV just breathers. Oil pump is original with 44K on it. Oil is Driven 10W-40 and about 1/2 quart high. I am not familiar with the style of overpressure valve the pump may have but it seems odd to me that once the pressure goes to zero it stays there, absolute zero. Whatever causes this happens very quickly. I gave the oil time to drain back down but pressure didn't come back in about 5 seconds of run time. didn't want to push it!!

Try a different brand oil filter, may be collapsing at rpm, "more flow". The rice paper they use is cheap now days.

What you describe is consistent with some modes of failure for the pressure relief valve. Sometimes you've got a weak or inappropriately sized spring that will open too early but then close once pressure drops, but sometimes the valve, bore, or spring is damaged in such a way that once it's open it will remain open until there is zero oil flow (engine stopped) and sometimes even until luck or gravity causes it to fall back in place. If you google "oil pressure relief valve" you'll see a million examples of what these things look like but only a few failure modes. Since you know the drive is good, the pump is good, and the fill is good (since it works consistently under 4000rpm) you're looking (it seems) for "failure after Xpsi" and that screams PRV.

Here is what is weird too. Both times this happened, which are the only two times I had the revs up, I had to prime with a drill to get the pressure back even after it sat for a while. Now I am not saying that if I had let it run the pressure wouldn't have eventually come back - didn't want to risk it to find out!! But as far as the pump and relief valve are concerned, what would be the difference between running the motor or using the drill? What the heck does it care? The good news, sounds great at an idle and I'll use less gas that way!! Ha!

I don't have a manual that gives the recommended oil weight? I would sure hate to pull the motor, change the pump and have it happen again due to windage. Xctasy you definitely sound like you've been there for sure! But at the same time I haven't changed the bottom end. Would a stock motor straight from the factory lose pressure from frothing up the oil? This is one of those lay awake at night things right?!

What does the oil pressure gauge say at 3999rpm? Can you replicate that pressure using a drill to drive the pump?

78 granada":3fzvhjfl said:

Here is what is weird too. Both times this happened, which are the only two times I had the revs up, I had to prime with a drill to get the pressure back even after it sat for a while. Now I am not saying that if I had let it run the pressure wouldn't have eventually come back - didn't want to risk it to find out!! But as far as the pump and relief valve are concerned, what would be the difference between running the motor or using the drill? What the heck does it care? The good news, sounds great at an idle and I'll use less gas that way!! Ha!

I don't have a manual that gives the recommended oil weight? I would sure hate to pull the motor, change the pump and have it happen again due to windage. Xctasy you definitely sound like you've been there for sure! But at the same time I haven't changed the bottom end. Would a stock motor straight from the factory lose pressure from frothing up the oil? This is one of those lay awake at night things right?!

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No, its not the frothing up, they have an anti foaming agent. Its cranshaft windage. You don't pick it up, a gague isn't instant, so by the time you see zero oil pressure, it has been happening for 6 seconds or more.


On my 81 200 Mustang and 84 250 Falcon. Both thrashed within an inch of there lives at various times, the sump had to be filled up to avoid pump screen zero oil pressure when taken up past 3500 in hard cornering conditions. At 95 mph in my 2.73:1 axled Stang, and a lot slower but in very hard driving in my 84 XE.



Are you running a Fram filter, like the HM8A High Mileage?

What oil weight.

The basic check is the mounting of the pump, and that there isn't particulates somewhere.

X shells aren't so bad to drop a sump on, even with all the bits you find on low mount 250's in a Granny.


Fine ground grey metallics in the oil, then I'd be worried, but you gotta physically check now if you can. Its not a full motor pull. Invovled for even de-emissoned Granada's since there's SOOO much stuff in an around the engine, but



(You Can Do It!)

The oil is 10w-40 conventional. Priming with a drill holds 60 psi steady. The oil filter isn't a fram but it isn't a premium like a Wix either. The first filter I pulled after the break in dumped out perfectly clean - no metal, as did the oil in the pan. When the car is going down the road at 2500 rpm the pressure is nice and steady and predictable as it heats up. As you say I will try overfilling the crankcase but man, didn't anyone ever rev any of the millions of stock engines in these cars? Why wasn't windage an issue? I wonder how many times I can test this without hurting the motor?? As always - really interesting and thank you guys!

Its like this...if you put adjustables on, you might have the preload right, you might not.


Ford engines are designed to give priority to the lifters, and if you use too lighter grade oil, it'll over scavenge. Adding oil doesn't increase windage, it increases the stage in the base of the sump, stopping the pickup running dry. Stock oil grade for the 250 is 20W/40, I think.


Are your lifters the stock ones? There are four types of 875 lifter. Get it wrong, and you'll end up with the lifters siphyoning off too much Texas Tee...


For istance, AMSOIL doesn't go back before 1980, and there is no 4.1 Granada L or C code, just a D code 4.2 V8 for which they now recommend 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (ATMQT-EA).

I'd go to 20W/40.

78 granada":3rdneq9x said:

didn't anyone ever rev any of the millions of stock engines in these cars? Why wasn't windage an issue?

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No, these engines were not designed to rev much past 3500 rpm. Think tractor motor. My I6 diesel redlines above 3000rpm.

"the gasser that's a diesel"
(240/300)

I could drive this car like it ought to be drove all day long and there would never be a problem. But when I started the project I was looking to build a cute little bracket car. 1/4 mile will have it see 4K but probably not much more. To be honest 4K sounded like a 'tractor' motor gone wild! Still, I would like to know that everything is OK with it. The book says 5 quarts of oil with a new filter. I am above the full mark but the filter probably doesn't hold a full quart either. I will see if I can get my oil in 20W-40 and then add some and try it. Like I say I'm not like a kid trying to blow things up!! Oh yea, I plead ignorant on the lifters. I bought B-2083s from Hylift Johnson. Did a visual on the height and diameter but didn't know to check any further. Maybe I got that wrong?

There are some guys and a gal that run their 250s a lot higher than 4,000 see what they are doing.
I ran my na tri power 200 to 7,500 with a super high volume pump and had no problem. But the pan held 8 quarts with a wind-age tray and a trap door.

78 granada":8iips7yj said:

Here is what is weird too. Both times this happened, which are the only two times I had the revs up, I had to prime with a drill to get the pressure back even after it sat for a while.

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I think this may be the best clue as to what is happening!

Just changed the filter to a Wix and added the oil I lost in the old filter. Then added 1 extra quart. Warmed it up good and took it down the road increasing to 4K RPM. Oil pressure dropped out completely to zero. Shut her off and coasted into the driveway.

I need to wait until I cool down, but I do not have room in my one stall garage for another winter to pull this and tear it down. I contracted a pole barn to be built so I can continue my hobby in the winter but the local zoning office says I can not build a pole barn! Get that, I have 4 acres surrounded on three sides by hundreds of acres of farm land and I can't build a pole barn!

Anyway I have another bit of advice, to not reuse a Felpro head gasket - I've got anti freeze visible in the seam between the deck and head.

So, looks like one of you guys might be getting a good deal real soon....Going once....going twice?

Edit: Just read this again - I guess it was kind of a rant!! I primed the motor again with the drill and got 60 psi on the gauge and held it there trying to replicate the failure but no go. When I am driving and the pressure fails it never reads above 60. I was hoping it would fail with the drill so I would know it was the pump.

78 granada":cps6uku3 said:

I could drive this car like it ought to be drove all day long and there would never be a problem. But when I started the project I was looking to build a cute little bracket car. 1/4 mile will have it see 4K but probably not much more. To be honest 4K sounded like a 'tractor' motor gone wild! Still, I would like to know that everything is OK with it. The book says 5 quarts of oil with a new filter. I am above the full mark but the filter probably doesn't hold a full quart either. I will see if I can get my oil in 20W-40 and then add some and try it. Like I say I'm not like a kid trying to blow things up!! Oh yea, I plead ignorant on the lifters. I bought B-2083s from Hylift Johnson. Did a visual on the height and diameter but didn't know to check any further. Maybe I got that wrong?

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No, the advice was wrong. You don't need to redrill the rocker shaft on and engine that doesn't need lost of oil to the rocker gear.

Period.

Just asking for trouble. Not your fault, the evidence has been around on every engine build, the feedback is that when you do anything at all to increase the stock non adjustable 250 or 200 rocker gear, you cause a potential oil starvation issue down below.

A combination of light oil weight, White Box HT 2083 lifters that you can't be sure arn't defective, and the normal issues which also afflict the similar Ford FE and Cleveland style engines is likely to be your problem.


Go to HT 900 R lifters, and recheck your pushrods an adjusters at full lift. If the ball ends don't wor together, get another kind of pushrod, or have them die ground and linished to clear the rcker arms.

Check with Bob the Builder on what lifters he used in his 62 250 pickup Ranchero.

50 bucks outa do a change for you. I'm baking on lifter collapse.


Read these three posts

http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php ... ons/page-2
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36327

yellow terra rocker arm install tips, Post #1 by rbohm » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:09 pm

When you install the yella-terra rocker arms you starve the distributor gear & camshaft gear of very needed lubrication.
To fix that condition the second & third lifters are on either side of the oil hole above the gears.
You can cut a .025" x .025" groove in those two lifters and that will flood the area with the necessary lubrication to prevent scoring of the gears.
http://i.imgur.com/eOBfvyU.jpg
Tech article by Bill Ambler billythedistributorman@live.com

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Re workig the oil to the top of the engine by restriction is quite okay, its not a 7000 to 9000 rpm 351 C or boss 302 race engine where strangled oil supply to the springs will kill valve springs...its basic prudence the Aussies used all the time.


I'd say there may be a problem with particals in the oil galleries, even for dillengent people who have carefully done the work. I'd add some ATF to your oil, and redo the lifters for 50 dollars. There is a 12o thou height difference between 300/351c lifters, although you can swap them, you just need to know what's the best set for your needs.

HT900R's are what I use.


Before you do, check with Will and Bob.

I'm thinking check the clearances on the oil pump gears need checking if there isn't instant oi pressure. Could be scored to heck.


There are a few issues gaskets being used on pump to block mating...you don't need askets, but you can fit them if you have an oil problem.

1bad6t1 had similar issues with his 170... sometimes Ford does stuff on engines which cause problems when you use White Box lifters.