A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Derangedfords90

Well-known member
Hey all,
So I just introduced myself a week ago here and have been doing some research before I post.

My goals are:
150whp minimum
Same fuel mileage (around 17 mpg)
Under $1000 budget

What I have:
1980 fairmont wagon
200ci i6 (appears original, no mods)
C3 (appears to be reman. Shifts well)

What I plan to do:
Autolite 2100 swap
T04E .57 trim eBay turbo (or similar)
Run 6 psi regularly. When I get saucy bring it to 10 psi.
C3 shift mod (from some light research it appears turbocoupe and merkur guys modify these things to hold up behind 2.3ts, so I figure a low horse 200t will be fine)
302 valvesprings (for insurance)

My plan is to do the Powervalve mod on the autolite and attempt to keep the main jets at 12-13:1 at cruise and drop to 11:1 under boost. I haven't figured out where my base timing should be. I have read that some lock out the mechanical advance and just use the vacuum advance. I'll try to go with this method as well to help with the cruise mileage. I figure if I can't get enough retard out of the stock distributor for boost I'll put a water meth jet in the carb hat.

I want to try boost referencing the stock fuel pump first and go from there on fuel.

From the experienced guys, what kind of hurdles can I expect from this plan? Do you see any holes? Any other recommendations? Are my goals achievable? Thanks in advance.
 
I don't know much about the 200s but my opinion so far is that the issues you will face is the budget and the mileage you expect.
When I started mine I really got nickel and dimed on little stuff I forgot I needed.
The old school rule of thumb is you lose 10% economy when a turbo goes on, don't know if that's changed much.
 
Ok,
So I picked up some plywood because I'm going to make an adapter for the autolite 2100. I know they make $50 adapters, but I kinda want to do this old school and see how it works.

I picked up a transgo shift kit for the c3....it's probably the simplest shift kit I have ever seen. Just a few Springs haha. We will see how the c3 lasts.

My plan for the hot side is to gut the cat that hangs off the exhaust manifold, cap the outlet, and mount a flange to the side of the cat, like a big Ole exhaust plenum pre-turbo.

I am planning on going non-intercooled and just making a DIY water/meth kit, but I'll have to make a price comparison. I was thinking of ABS piping for a cold side because it doesn't hold heat and is resistant to heat and withstands a minimum pressure of 100psi. My alternative is welding some 2in conduit pipe into a cold side, or ordering a cold side. I'm still trying for under $1000.

What I still haven't figured out is where to start with my timing. Does anyone have any input as to where they started with timing? I haven't gotten much input as far as specifics when it comes to the timing and fuel.

Thanks in advance!
 
I was over complicating the build. Decided to not use the 2 barrel. I'm almost done. Here's what I have done so far.

-used the stock exhaust manifold, cut the cat and rotated so the u-pipe was perpendicular to the engine.
-made a carb hat out of a 2 1/2 OD exhaust pipe reducer and some 3/16 plate for a sealing surface
-locked the mechanical advance on the stock distributor. I will be starting my tuning with my base timing at 20*. Keeping vacuum advance for driveability/fuel mileage. That puts my cruise/idle timing at about 42*. Does anyone have any experience with that?
-used hardware store ABS pipe for the rest of the cold side.

Still on the "to-do list"
-finish down pipe/connect with stock exhaust.
-boost reference fuel pump
-install wideband
-install boost gauge
-adjust wastegate
-see how the 1946 carb does at stock settings and tune from there.

My total cost so far:
$340 -turbo, flanges, oil feed/drain, shipping
$45 - cold side
$0 - hot side
$30- boost gauge
$150- wideband (which I will be removing for future projects once dialed in)
$60 random fittings/ hoses/ clamps
$18 c3 transgo kit
$10 trans pan gasket and filter
$18 cooling fan controller (already had a cheapo flexalite)
$20 BOV
$18 valve cover and oil pan gaskets
$69 boost actuated dump valve
...I think that is it...
So according to my math thats $778 so far. My budget goal is still good....however I'm not including tools that I had to upgrade since I started the project. My harbor freight welder wasn't cutting it so I got a hobart handler 140 and got some other things, but those can be applied to future projects too. For the sake of the argument though I'm still under $1000. Hope to drive it soon and report back.
 
Some pictures. Go ahead and judge the welding. I know I'm bad.
 

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what kind of hurdles can I expect from this plan? Do you see any holes? Any other recommendations? Are my goals achievable? Thanks in advance.

Alright, lets hear it for self - fabbed performance!. Good progress on your Forced Induction project and even better it's in a wagon. . Currently I have forced induction 250 project and have a few different approaches:

The centrifugal advance slot on your dist' is "13" so it is @ 26 degrees advance at max (2X crank). I leave centrifugal working with vacuum advance and reasonable static advance for unboosted cruise. The vacuum advance is lost with boost so total is @ 26 centrifugal plus static. May not work as well as a digital boost referenced ignition box but it will simply get a Forced Induction setup up and running fairly safely.

I use a 2Bbl adapter and Holley 2300 series 350 cfm 2Bbl which is basically 1/2 a standard Holley 4Bbl and the parts and info for blow-thru modification are readily available.

.. looking forward to more of your build and suggestions for mine.

have fun
 
Powerband, I'm admittedly confused at your last post.

I decided to use a "boost rule of thumb" which is 2 degrees or retard for every psi of boost (IIRC). So factory centrifugal is 18+ 13 + 10 base(I had 18R on one side and 13R on the other). Which is 41 degrees max centrifugal advance. I then subtracted 12 degrees ( 6psi x 2 deg. Retard) which is 29 degrees. Then I figured I would step it back a little until I got everything dialed in so that I don't melt anything. That's why I stepped it back 9 degrees to 20 degrees advance. My ultimate plan once I get my AFR under control is to advance incrementally until i start pinging, then back it off 2-3 degrees to stay safe. I only plan to run 87 octane if I can so I'm trying to keep a lot of the timing out of it.

So my question is, what is your static timing if you maintain centrifugal advance? If your distributor is 26 deg. of centrifugal advance (or 31 in my case), then do you set your static timing at TDC so that you only have 26 deg. of advance at WOT? If so that only gives you 22 deg. at idle through the vacuum advance. Then if you wanted to go lower you would have to retard static timing even farther. In my case (if I'm correct) the centrifugal Advance was 31 degrees total, and my goal is to keep the total timing at 20 degrees under full boost. So my static timing would be 11 degrees retarded if I kept it. Not healthy.

I figured the loss down low from the fixed timing would be mitigated by boost. Also I thought it would be safer too. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
 
So factory centrifugal is 18+ 13 + 10 base(I had 18R on one side and 13R on the other). Which is 41 degrees max centrifugal advance.

Try all the math again after this: Distributors turn at one-half the speed of the crankshaft.

18 (at dizzy) X 2 =36 (at crank) + 13 + 10 base would be @ 59 degrees at the crankshaft.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/restoratio ... ing_timing

have fun
 
Okay I know now what was confusing. In the first post that you wrote you said that I had a "13" slot. I didn't recognize that because I was literally reading the numbers stamped on the top of the distributor plate. If it is truly a "13" distributor then yes it should be 26 degrees of centrifugal timing. If that is true, total timing would be 36 degrees at max RPM. Minus my 12 for boost, that's still 24 degrees. So fixing the distributor 2 20 degrees is still satisfactory since I have the vacuum advance. I am unsure of whether my method is going to work. Also same question from before how do you set static timing with 26 total degrees and you're trying to back off 12 degrees. Again your static timing would be 2 degrees after top dead. I am mainly trying to figure this out so I can figure out if I need to go get another stock distributor LOL

I wish I had known to measure what this lot is before I reassembled the distributor.
 
Hey, looking good man. Looks like you are well on your way to having positive manifold pressure in your small six.

A couple things, modifying that Holley single barrel is a PITA, but it can be done. In order to enlarge the PVCR you must remove the carb and disassemble it. I must have had mine on and off 15 times maybe more. If I had to do it again, I would buy a cheap carb adapter and modify a used 2 bbl Holley or weber carb.

I had my timing locked at about 26 degrees and retained manifold vacccum advance for cruise and idle. It ran great, never got hot and with aseriously over geared final drive got mileage numbers that would make you think I were lying about it.

And yes, your welding is ugly. So was mine as I thought myself to weld on my 200 turbo project. It will improve with practice and with better equipment. But what you have done looks perfectly functional and is much closer to fruition than the guy who is waiting till next year to learn to weld perfect beads and is instead telling people online what can't be done.

Much respect for your efforts and using the football manifold is awesome! Well done, and keep it up!
 
Thanks for the support! Yeah, I still have the 2 barrel autolite in case I can't get the 1946 to function. I figure learning on the 1946 will be a good experience.
 
So I finished the engineering portion on the turbo project. Nowe it's going to be the fine tuning portion. Stuff I got done today was building my downpipe/boost referenced dump valve, and boost referencing the fuel pump. Also I hooked up my wideband and boost gauge. Took the car out to get a base line for tuning the carb and I got 3psi so far (luckily since my AFR was 14.5:1 at that pressure). I took a lot of pressure out at the wastegate so I wouldn't melt it down on the first drive. Pictures of the downpipe and how I boost referenced the fuel pump.
 

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I am now realizing that the pictures get posted in the order you add them. So I apologize for them being in the incorrect order.
 
Pics of the car. It's ugly and I love it.... also I forgot to mention, the AC still works. That was my goal. Now to get it fine tuned.
 

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I modified a new stock mechanical fuel pump the same way. Mine ran to 20 psi and the diaphragm never failed and it raised fuel pressure like it was supposed to, but Linc said that his was tearing at 10 or 12 I believe. His problem may have just been an old worn out pump.

Have you figured out the PVCR circuit in that carb yet? It is a huge pain to do tweak it, and you will have to remove a sealed plug and tap the channel for an access plug.

Keep it up man, you are close. :)
 
I don't remember where I got the idea to boost reference the fuel pump like that, but it might have been looking at your 250 write-up. I don't know.

No I haven't gotten to messing with the carb yet. I just wanted to get a base line first so I knew where to go. I probably should have put a gauge on the fuel pump to see what it was doing under pressure.

Did you change the powervalves to one that actuated with a lower vacuum? Or did you keep it the same?
 
Derangedfords90":3pjzbsoa said:
Did you change the powervalves to one that actuated with a lower vacuum? Or did you keep it the same?

Unfortunately with that carburetor, the powervalve is a piston type instead of the more familiar Holley diaphragm type and I not as tunable. The good thing is that it is quite difficult to damage.

All additional fueling on my setup was from the powervalve circuit and I actually leaned the main jet out a little in the million times my carb was apart for tuning to get a nice lean cruise. By the time I was done I believe I ended up opening the PVCR to almost .100" to get enough fuel under boost and was running something in the neighbourhood of a 62 main. I remember also choking down the high speed airbleed with some small wire to get enough fuel under boost.

These are the reasons I would use a more tunable setup if I did it again, I was more trying to prove it could be done because Linc was so close with his.
 
Some guys are telling me to put an extension on the air bleed to help richen it under boost/ get a better signal. If you choked it down, were you leaving it in the stook position? Or are these guys sending me on a goose chase?
 
I made a vent extention to the charge pipe and my AFR @ 3psi is 12:1 I guess I got lucky it dropped that much. I'm going to step up a few jets and see where it is at, then mess with the timing.
 
If your turbo is the same rating curve as Lincs200's

to4bs3.jpg



Then I'd just look at the fuel enrichment via the stock power valve.

Webers 32/36 dgav and 38 DGAS used the same as Holley 1908/1940/1945/1946 power valve...A little lvave in the base of the floar bowl, with a "sprung" rod to actuate.

The way to gage its operation is to do this.

See http://forums.ihpartsamerica.com/showthread.php?t=3153

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It shows the full routing of the power valve, except its supply to the emulsion circuits. The black line on the photos shows the upper path in more detail. You can measure fuel enrichment durring transition, and by cutting coils and drilling PVCR's, you can get transitional fuel enrichment.




The second way to way to spike in tranition boost air fuel ratio is to slam the float level down to ensure the well tubes areate the fuel less.The issues were dealt with by Lotus in the 1981 Lotus Espirt Turbo, where increased boost pressure is rammed into the float bowl as a means of boost referencing the Dellorto's float bowl by applying a column of moving air to the float bowl. I'll send you a picture of it form David Vizards 1988 article.


AH, found it elseware


HPIM4188.jpg


http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=121925

Using carbs because i have them, No mod rings, look at the picture of my carbs that turbo baja posted, from that an fitting a 3/8" hardline goes into my boost stream to catch a good flow of pressurized air.





Less holes, richer, more holes, leaner. The hydrostatic gradient is midly pushed beyond the normal 14.7 lb per square inch at sea level, and that adds some extra richness. Most well tubes are 4 to five 25 thou holes deep, but on other carbs like Webers, they are much more sensitive emulsion tubes.

The issue with the one barrel feeding one 1420 cc log is that air fuel ratio supply to each six cylinders goes uneven past 9 pounds per squaring inch of boost. The boost ratio is forcing about, at just 180 hp, at the very least, about 650 cc/minute of fuel into 1420 cc log, and the individual deamands of each cylinder are not met, as the 60 thou globules of atomised gasoline have mass and velocity which ensures they miss there target due to fuel standoff in an aproximately 1.65" diameter 22 inch long log. Of that 770 cc's, about six 100 cc intake runners recieve varting amounts of fuel.


Adding extra boost and extra fuel will just make matters worse. So keeping boost down, but adding an excess fuel factor, will help you preempt an excessive lean out.

Its the log intake that makes the detonation occur.

Linc had the plan to Autolite 2100 the intake, and add side runners to get the air fuel flow efficency closer to 100 % equal between cylinders. Stock, the figures at peak flow of about 125 cfm vary 15% between all six cylinders, with cylinders 5 and 2 leaning out due to the intake design. 6-5-4-3-2-1 figures of something like 90-85-100-100-85-90. It then gets a whole lot worse at 9 pounds boost, as the atomised air fuel has "weght" and globes of atomised gas are like 0.80 cd drag balls, like little Kenwoths colliding down the turnpike. It gets terminal at 13 to 25 psi, Flow efficeny is the individual intake cfm verses the peak cfm of the best cylindr flow bare. As the boost ratio climbs, the individual cylinder to cylinder flow efficencys will vary by more than 30%, with from 6-5-4-3-2-1 figures of something like 85-75-100-100-70-70 from the flow net modelling. Adding more fuel at lower boost won't help much, but at higher boost, it will.
 
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