Turbo 240 or 300

Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help
 
Ramian17":34swjt9b said:
Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help

A PT6266 turbo is way too large!!! It is a 735 hp 62mm inducer turbo.
The biggest possible turbo would be something in the low 50mm range.

A 302 V8 can pump a lot more air than a 300 six. Not a good way of sizing a turbo for your engine.

First, Is the engine size a 240 or 300?
Second, Once the turbo size is figured then I highly recommend the Borg Warner S200 series turbo.
Jegs carries most of the product line.
 
Ramian17":3vryeta6 said:
Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help

Regarding plenum shape and size, its often part of the design process to make the plenum volume larger in boosted engines compared to the same plenum for N/A engines. A plenum volume of 1-1/2 to 2 times the engine size is normal for boosted engines, while a plenum size of equal size to the engine is common for N/A engines. Also, the runners need a generous radius at the point where the runners meet the plenum. Airflow doesn't like sharp transitions as this disrupts airflow and can cause uneven airflow from runner to runner.
 
What type of boost control do you plan on using?
 
Awesome thanks for the plenum advice I plan on flaring out all six of the runners on the plenum. Boost control will be decided by the wastegate I choose for the turbo right? So which turbo do I go with? I'm looking at the turbonetics T04E 60 trim, Garret GTX28 76, or a GTX 30 76? I know very little about turbos. Those are the ones that the turbo pros on the phone have suggested for me. I'm looking for 5 to 10 pounds of boost, 14 pounds when I get crazy. With it boosting at 1500RPM and no higher than 2500RPM. 300 to 400 horses and torque. Any of you guys done this before with RPMs that low?
 
Ramian17":pymsvhhn said:
Awesome thanks for the plenum advice I plan on flaring out all six of the runners on the plenum. Boost control will be decided by the wastegate I choose for the turbo right? So which turbo do I go with? I'm looking at the turbonetics T04E 60 trim, Garret GTX28 76, or a GTX 30 76? I know very little about turbos. Those are the ones that the turbo pros on the phone have suggested for me. I'm looking for 5 to 10 pounds of boost, 14 pounds when I get crazy. With it boosting at 1500RPM and no higher than 2500RPM. 300 to 400 horses and torque. Any of you guys done this before with RPMs that low?
This is important! The turbocharger size depends on the engine size when you are looking for a specific rpm power range.
In this case significant boost from 1500 rpm out to 3000 rpm
At the beginning of the thread there was a question about this engine being a 240 or a 300.
Do you know what the crankshaft stroke is?

Second very important question is: Are you going to use an intercooler?
Example: A stock head 300 six will make 300 HP at around 4000 rpm at 15 lbs of boost using an air to air intercooler running at 50% efficiency .
Torque is around 470 ft lbs between 1500 and 2500 rpm.
Without an intercooler there is a 50 ft lb drop in torque across the power band.

In order to get more than 300 hp @ 15 lbs of boost the cylinder head would need modifications to increase port flow.

Third very important question is concerning the compression ratio.
In order to have power very low in rpm the camshaft profile will need to close the intake valve very early.
This will lead to a high Dynamic Compression Ratio which means the Static Compression Ratio needs to be low at 8.5 or less.
Do you know what the compression ratio will be?
 
I don't know the exact stroke, but I do know that it's going to be a 300 for sure. I'm definitely going to be using an intercooler. I'm not sure on the exact compression ratio, but we talked about keeping it low around 8.5 or 9 so that we can turn up the boost. We talked about a custom ground cam duration at .050" is 212/212, lift is .447/.447, LSA is 114. And the cylinder head from my 240 is getting ported and polished so hopefully the do good on that. I will go over there tomorrow and get the exact stroke, cam grind, and compression ratio from the guy. Thanks so much for your help. I would love to have the numbers you are talking about that would be a huge step up from my old girl. Does what I'm telling you sound like it should work and if so which turbo?!?!?! Lol I'm dying to know and get that thing headed my way!!! Thanks again pmuller9.
 
Ramian17":1f8wmjhi said:
I don't know the exact stroke, but I do know that it's going to be a 300 for sure. I'm definitely going to be using an intercooler. I'm not sure on the exact compression ratio, but we talked about keeping it low around 8.5 or 9 so that we can turn up the boost. We talked about a custom ground cam duration at .050" is 212/212, lift is .447/.447, LSA is 114. And the cylinder head from my 240 is getting ported and polished so hopefully the do good on that. I will go over there tomorrow and get the exact stroke, cam grind, and compression ratio from the guy. Thanks so much for your help. I would love to have the numbers you are talking about that would be a huge step up from my old girl. Does what I'm telling you sound like it should work and if so which turbo?!?!?! Lol I'm dying to know and get that thing headed my way!!! Thanks again pmuller9.
The cam specs look good. It will work with the stock rocker arms. Just need to increase the spring pressure.
The 212/212 .050" 114 LSA cam will make peak torque around 2500 rpm which is actually a good place for towing.
The 300 still retains plenty of torque below 2000 rpm so no worries.
Just be sure to install the cam advanced with the intake lobe center @ 110* ATDC.

Now for some fun where you get to participate.
I set this turbo calculator with close to your engine specs @ 15 lbs of boost so you can see the airflow load points in the row listed as Corrected Air Flow Rate, lb/min
These are the points that get superimposed on the turbo compressor map to check for the correct turbo match.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&
You can change any parameter including boost.
Starting at 2000 rpm the flow rate is 16.96 lbs/min and at 4500 rpm it is 30.72. round off to 17 and 30.
At the top of the same chart is the compression ratio which is just above 2. One atmosphere of pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level at standard temp. 15 lbs of boost is just over another atmosphere added. So (14.7 + 15)/14.7 = 2.02 or the ratio of boost over pressure at sea level.

Next look at the compressor map for the GTX2876 that was recommended.
Click on the compressor map image just below the turbocharger image.
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/produc ... ctid=31717
If you look at the left side of the map you will see the pressure level. We will be using a level of 2
Now come across that level till you find the two airflow point of 17 and 30. The load line will be a line between those two points.
Notice that our load line fits nicely across the map with a little extra room to the right for extra power.
It take approximately 1 lb of air per min to make 10 horsepower so 30 lbs per min is about 300 hp.
There is room at that pressure level to go out to 40 lbs per min for 400 hp which gives a good margin for additional HP.
Now change the boost to 5 lbs and use the new pressure ratio and flow points see if the load line is still within the compressor limits.
Looks like a good match?
If you look at the compressor specs it shows the GTX2876 as a 50mm compressor inducer (the inlet or small inside diameter of the wheel) and an 67mm exducer (outside wheel diameter).

Here is the latest Garrett catalog where you can find the compressor map for the GTX 3076 that was also suggested.
You may find that the 3076 is on the large size for your engine application.

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... -Vol-6.pdf

The GTX series has a ceramic ball bearing center and many other features that causes it to also come with a nice price tag.

From the maps that I could find the Turbonetics T04E 60 trim looks to be on the large side.

The problem is when you are trying to get good boost at low rpm the airflow is low at that point and the load line pushes the surge limit/ left side of the map.

A 360* journal bearing center turbo has a price tag more in line with budget.
I purposely displayed the Borg Warner turbo of choice for your engine at the bottom of the MatchBot calculator.
The S200SX-E has a very wide map at the lower pressure ratios allowing for wide rpm power bands.
Jegs carries the Borg Warner line.

We didn't discuss turbine housing A/R yet. Will wait until you get handle on the compressor side.
 
Awesome thanks a I read up on all that info last night learned a lot. It sounds like you are leaning towards the Garret or Warner turbos not the turbonetics? On one of the graphs on the match bot all five dots didn't line up on one line? And yeah I have no idea what AR I need on either side. When they say TO4E or GTX2876 does any of that reference AR or trim or anything really for that matter lol? I want a ball bearing turbo for this project for sure. I have got a lot of different opinions from a lot of people on the water cooled or not? I just want to have it be reliable and make a lot of power lol. My budget for the turbo is $2000 I think that will get you the best of the best right?
 
I have used twin 88mm Turbonetics for racing. We switched to Precision and picked up some efficiency. Not really relevant here just thought I'd mention it. As far as I can tell the TO4E 60 was on the large side.

The GTX2876 will work except it looks like it has been replaced with the GTX2867.
There is a GTX2967 that is also available which appears to have a more efficient compressor than the GTX2867.

The Borg Warner equivalent would be the EFR 7064-B.

Trim is simply the ratio of the small diameter area to the outside diameter area of either the compressor or turbine wheel.

The A/R of the turbine housing is very important. It is the ratio of the turbine housing inlet cross-sectional area to the radius of the turbine wheel.
Basically as you decrease inlet size, the exhaust gas velocity increases spinning the turbo faster as a result so it will respond better to low rpm.
However the smaller inlet size is more restrictive and will choke the turbo sooner effecting the ability to make higher rpm power.
A smaller A/R turbine housing will make more power at low rpm while the larger A/R will make higher rpm power. Same old story of give and take. LOL
You would be looking between a .60s to .80s for a turbine housing A/R.
If you really want a lot boost by 1500 rpm then use a .64 A/R or whatever is close to that.

The turbo experiences the most heat to the center section after engine shutdown.
Water cooling helps during the time the engine is running and after shutdown during the time heat is being transferred to the center from the turbine housing. The heat absorption creates an effect known as “thermal siphoning” which pulls the water through the center even though the water pump is not running.
 
Awesome those turbos all look good to me. Went and talked to him to today my compression is 8:1 stroke is 3.98 exhaust valve size is 1.94 and intake valve is 1.6 and this is my cam. IMG_20170314_135225257.jpg
The guy building my engine likes Warner for turbos and said that he would go for a turbo built for a 4L motor? He sais with that cam to set it at 108° ATDC?
 
Yes that particular cam does get set at 108* ATDC.
That is Crowers "Off the shelf" naturally aspirated cam which has more focus on upper rpm power.

For a turbo cam I prefer NOT to have more exhaust duration than intake duration for low rpm power.
Most of the energy from exhaust cycle that is driving the turbo turbine is from the blow down portion, from the time the exhaust valve opens till just after BDC.
At very low rpm any exhaust valve open time remaining after the intake valve opens (valve overlap) causes reversion in the intake port especially when using the stock log exhaust manifold.
Exhaust pressure can be twice the intake manifold pressure under boost.

Please have Crower grind a cam with the specs you previously mentioned. 202/202 114 LSA.
Here is a 300 six custom turbo cam that Crower did where the exhaust duration is less than the intake duration.

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39382077/Ford%20six/Crower%20Cam3.jpg[/image]
If you are going to use the Warner ball bearing turbo it needs to be either the EFR 6258-A or the EFR 7064-B.
The EFR 6758-G. is a little larger but will still work.
Anything else is too big.
 
Dangit I wasn't very happy when he pulled out the none turbo cam. Sense I told him to get a custom ground one. Well how much of a difference is it going to make do I go back in the tomorrow and tell him to order one like yours? I'm all going to have a custom one off header made from m&m exhaust they only make headers.
 
The header helps because the separate primary tubes isolate each cylinder and can actually create low pressure in the tubes behind the high pressure exhaust pulse.
It is still important not to have a long exhaust duration especially if you want power at very low rpm.
Because of the header the exhaust duration doesn't have to be less than the intake, the 202/202 114 LSA would be good.
The LSA at 114 is also important. The larger LSA decreases the valve overlap period.
 
Alright so from the sounds of what you are telling me I need to man up and go tell him to order the custom cam? How long does it take crower to churn one of those things out. This motor has been at the shop for almost three months and the assembly hasnt even started yet? I'm starting to lose my mind!!!!
 
No I haven't used a 202/202, 114 yet.
It is real close to a profile that will be used for a turbocharged, liquid propane injected 300 for another board member looking for the same power band.

A 202/202 114 has 8 degrees less overlap than the 202/210 112 Crower that you have now.
That is significant when you are looking for low rpm performance versus high rpm where 8 degrees of crank rotation goes by very quickly.
Port velocities are also slow at low rpm and can be easily effected unlike the high port velocities at the upper rpms.

Crower has pretty good turn around time.
They will let you know when you call them.
We needed a custom billet steel cam for one of our supercharged V8s for a race that was coming up.
Called them on Monday, cam was sitting in our shop that Friday.

I get that you are getting anxious.
What I see is a project with a lot of time and planning to get it right that should not be compromised over a cam profile.
Just my opinion.
 
Yeah I agree with it all. I'll go tell him tomorrow. Wow there's another guy on here looking for lots of power with RPMs as low as mine? What is his application? Should I go with those numbers or do you have a favorite cam for things like this lol. I honestly dont know what I need and will tell the mechanic any numbers you tell me to tell him.
 
202 duration numbers or close to that will work.
The cam for the turbo propane engine was 204/204, 114 LSA
The 114* LSA is what is important.
Valve lift anywhere around .450" is also good and will allow the use of the stock rockers.

Where did you get the original specs that you posted?
112*/112*, .447"/.447", 114 LSA
 
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