Turbo 240 or 300

Yeah it totally makes sense I'm building this motor that will have all the power I would ever need in the top end. I just hope the new 300 has enough umph to get the 7000 pound van and the 2000 pound Suzuki samurai or trailer behind me going in first gear lol? I'm trying to shop around and find that EFR 6852 for a little less.
http://edgeautosport.com/borgwarner-efr ... rbocharger
What do you think of this website and price?
 
The price looks good.
There is another 4% off once you get it to the shopping cart for $1661 and there doesn't appear to be tax or shipping charges.

Their customers on facebook seem to be happy with them.
 
So get this I just talked to my header guy and he didn't even bat a eye when I asked if he could make a true twin scroll header so that's good. I also talked to Mike at Southeast power sports a huge dealer for BW. I gave him all the info and he is going to run some matches on some different​ turbos. He thinks that with the 300 displacement and the twin scroll header that the turbo will have no problem making boost by 1500. He said the major problem will be the waste gate won't bleed enough volume off at high rpm and the turbo will over spool which I think is really bad!!!! Lol He said that with there's you have the already installed speed sensor so you can sat it up with the computer to never over spool and run everything. He is going to send me some matches of different sized turbos . What do ya think?
 
I'm glad that you have a header guy that is up to the task.

The lower the boost level that you want to operate at, the larger the wastegate needs to be because more exhaust needs to be dumped to keep the boost level low.
Most people trying to use an internal wastegate turbo at low boost end up adding an external wastgate.
However BW spent a lot of testing internal wastegate sizes and have install larger wastegate than their competitors.
The B1 frame comes with a 31 mm port wastegate which is a good size compared to others.

Problem 2 is that even with the BW wastegate if a person is trying to adjust the boost higher by making the linkage shorter to compress the canister spring, the travel is decreased and the wastegate door opening decreases.
That is why we talked about using a spill valve for boost control instead of linkage adjustments.

You also have boost limit control in the Holley HP EFI software.

Installing an external wastegate is a pain in the butt, takes up too much room, extra expense and should be avoided at all cost.
 
This is the email back.
As to the turbocharger match we discussed, I’ve done a simple match using the BorgWarner MatchBot, and below is the link to the first match:
image002.jpg
http://www.turbos.borgwarner.com/go/FOPKVI

When you view this match, there are a few things to consider, and keep in mind that this is just a first-shot match, so I’ll point out a few things with some simple screen snips:

First, the most basic engine and requirement information, including your RPM range:



I also set indicated turbo boost pressure between 5 and 10psi with a ramp-up from 1500-2000RPM, which, given your engine displacement, I think is very possible.

Just these simple inputs spat out a compressor match for the EFR6258:

image009.jpg

Frankly, it doesn’t get much better than this; all six plot points are within the map envelope, and, at your peak boost, you’re not only well into very efficient map islands, you’re also well within the peak flow of the compressor, and also, and most importantly, you’re well below the peak speed lines. This is a VERY safe compressor match.

Next is the turbine map, and that did require some manipulation of the wastegate flow percentages, which we’ll discuss further below:


image007.png

Again, this is a very good match, with the manipulation to the wastegate percentages being surprisingly not as bad as I expected, and, again, this still all falls within the safe operating speed of the turbocharger.

A bit about the calculated outputs here:

image010.png

I’m not completely sure where you needed to be for total HP, but I know torque was important, and, assuming you can match those fuel delivery requirements and the engine can handle that relatively low boost, you’ll have plenty of usable torque from 1500rpm onward; that’s diesel-level torque right there. It would seem that 200lb/hr fuel injectors would be a good match, and the good news is that those are cheap and easy to locate.

Okay, so far, so good. But we’re not done, because we still have to work on that wastegate percentage change:



Above is the good news; the EFR B1 family, which includes the EFR6258, uses a 31mm WG port, split into two actual passages, so you have the physical materials to handle the flow. The key is going to be to program or set your boost control curve to match the duty cycle of the BCSV (the wastegate solenoid) to the operation of the valve, so that you can maintain fairly high percentages of wastegating to keep that turbine speed down, and to reduce backpressure to make the power you need.

Here’s what I found with regard to that required percentage:

image008.png
image012.png

This is the tricky part; the EFR B1 “G” housing (the twin-scroll) has wastegate flow capability of around 40-45% maximum, which is quite high, but it’s right there at the limit of what we’ll be asking for, with that 3000RPM line asking for just over 45%. Can it do it? Yes, I believe it can, but this is where the turbine speed sensor, and, of course, careful control of the wastegate, will ensure that you don’t overspeed the unit.

For what it’s worth, “If” we raise the boost pressure to 12psi at 3000RPM, the wastegate percentage drops immediately to 37.76%. This may be an easy way to not only overcome that possible issue, but, as well, to drive up power, as that also pumps peak HP to 336. Something to consider, for sure.

So, this tells us that you had already done a pretty good job of matching the unit. Good for you.

That takes us to the bad news; the pricing. Below, I’ve quoted the unit, along with companion items you may find useful or necessary:

Complete turbocharger, with “Low Pressure” wastegate canister, and iron bearing housing: $1683.40. As I mentioned, due to the configuration of this unit, we would need to assemble it here, but I just checked, and every component is in stock, so lead time would be very short; 1-2 days maximum.

Turbine outlet v-flange: $34.96 (machined stainless; designed for a 3” downpipe design)
Turbine outlet v-clamp: $55.20 (for the above)
Oil drain flange for your choice of -10 (5/8” i.d.) push-on oil cooler hose, or -10AN hose assembly: $27.70.
Water-port connection fittings for -6AN hose assemblies: $3.01 each (2 required).

All of these materials are in stock.

The oil supply connection fitting is included with the turbo, as a -4AN line. You would need a corresponding oil supply line from a full-flow, filtered oil supply. If you can supply a total length for that line, we can also supply that complete line, and we can also do the same for the oil drain hose, whether you require push-on hose or an AN-style assembly. Ditto for the water lines. All of that said, this is material that I’m sure you can source locally if you have a good hose-and-fitting store nearby.

The remaining connection points for the turbo are fairly simple; the turbine inlet is the T4, twin-scroll (we can supply a flange if your manifold builder has any trouble finding one), and the compressor inlet is a simple 3” hose connection, and the outlet is a 2” connection. When you select an air filter, just use the information above for an airflow requirement, and I would suggest adding about 33% additional flow.

Well what do you ya think pmuller?
 
I'm glad to see that you are going through the calculations.

Now change the volumetric efficiency down to 80%
and change the intercooler effectiveness down to 50%
With the ported head the engine VE will be somewhere around 80%.
An air to air intercooler can be up to 60% efficient but I like to use 50% just to be conservative.

You will find a difference in the new results.
 
That looks about right and close to real world results.

The points are actually sitting on a good place on the map with a little room for extended rpm range way beyond 3000 rpm.

What did you mean by "This doesn't look very good"?
Did you want more power @ only 10 lbs of boost with an intercooler effectiveness of 50%?

Stock power for a late model 4.9 EFI engine was 150 hp @ 3400 rpm and 260 ft lbs of torque @ 2000 rpm.
 
Haha no no I think that will be over the top power I'm worried about the motor shredding my unibody!!!!! Lol. I thought that all the red dots on the second graph needed to be on a line? That's what I was thinking was not good?
 
Ramian17":bvcr4pc9 said:
I thought that all the red dots on the second graph needed to be on a line? That's what I was thinking was not good?

Those dots are moved by manually adjusting the turbine expansion ratio values at the bottom of the first page.

Yep I can see it now. The van twisted with the drivers side front wheel about a foot in the air, busted out windshield, doors stuck closed..ect but What a ride!!!
 
From the email It looks like these guys have everything needed to assemble a complete EFR 6258 turbo with the correct housing, canister and fittings.
The oil lines and water lines will probably need to be measured after the turbo is mounted so they may need to purchased later.
The price is also right for that particular turbo.

Nice work!!
 
Awesome so you're telling me the turbine expansion value is totally adjustable? That's good. I'll talk to him on Monday and hopefully make it work in which case I'll be making a purchase. You think it's the right call?
 
As far as I can tell it is one of the few places that will put the turbo together with all the right components you want including oil and water connections.
Also double check the reviews. I looked on facebook and all I saw was happy costumers.
I would say it is the right call.
 
Awesome yeah I'll call them tomorrow. So I'm putting a new larger gas tank in the van right now. I am trying to hook up the fuel line and the return line to the tank. What kind of psi are we talking about on this return line. Can I just have a bung/nipple on the top of the tank that a little rubber hose with some hose clamps goes to or does it need to be all metal fuel lines into and out of the tank? Also what king of fuel pumps do you recommend for this project? I have no idea what turbo fuel injected motors need?
 
In tank fuel pump stays cooled from the gas and seems to be the most reliable.
I have never had a problem with Aeromotive pumps and regulators.

I would size the pump for minimum 400 hp forced induction which is 160 lph.
The in tank Aeromotive 200 would get the job done.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-18689/overview/

The return line has very little pressure in it but for protection I would use stainless steel for both the fuel pressure and return line.

You will also need a boost referenced return pressure regulator and fuel filter.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13129/overview/
 
I like the idea of stainless steel line all the at to the tank. I don't know what kind of fitting I would put on the tank for that?
 
Ramian17":166lfmxk said:
I like the idea of stainless steel line all the at to the tank. I don't know what kind of fitting I would put on the tank for that?
If you use the in tank pump I suggested or similar, the inlet and outlets are outside the tank as part of the pump assembly
The pump inlet and outlet are set up for 6 AN fittings.
You would use 6 AN to 3/8" hard line adapters
 
I like that fuel pump but none the less it sounds kinda scary to cut a huge hole in the bottom of the tank and try to seal it with a huge o ring lol. Have you ever used it? I'm sure it works great it just looks a little scary!?!?!? Any one ever used one of these for that matter?
 
Do you our know of any OE preferably external fuel pumps that supply that much? That way I can still pick it up at NAPA.
 
Ramian17":3bglrpy5 said:
I like that fuel pump but none the less it sounds kinda scary to cut a huge hole in the bottom of the tank and try to seal it with a huge o ring lol. Have you ever used it? I'm sure it works great it just looks a little scary!?!?!? Any one ever used one of these for that matter?
The pump is installed through a hole in the top of the tank which should already be in the top of the new tank that you purchase, the same as all OEM in-tank fuel pump installations.
In-tank fuel pumps have very few failures because they are cooled by the gas.
Millions are running around on the streets every day.

The problem with looking for an external inline pump at Napa or any other parts store is it is tough to find specs on replacement fuel pumps.

Second problem is because your fuel pressure is boost referenced your pump will need a lot higher max pressure rating than the standard pumps found at the auto parts stores.
 
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