turbo 200 build

drag-200stang":3b7tw3fv said:
(y) What did you have to do to get the 3.8 to fit? I believe they say to set the program to hall effect and falling edge is best? Also what cam shaft are you using?
One thing I would like to caution you on is bad spark timing under boost will destroy things, you will make good power and think everything is fine...Just make sure that noise is not false triggering spark and that it is what you are commanding it to be before boosting it.

The shaft on the 3.8 is longer than our inlines. I cut the synchronizer of the top of the shaft and bored a hole through the center of the synchronizer. Then I cut the shaft down to the correct size and tapped a 1/4' hole in the synchronizer end. The cam sensor body is a direct slip-on into the block. You need to change the cam gear the 3.8 is reverse rotation to the inline six.
[image]https://imageshack.com/i/pm0CzysRj[/image]
This pic is not the sensor I used, it's the magnetic sensor - but I did the same modifications to both the magnetic and hall effect sensors.
Holley recommends falling edge
I'm using Clay Smith Cams - custom turbo grind.
Thanks for the warning, I plan to do a lot of tuning before the turbo goes on.
 
200 First start (Youtube Link)


It's been a long week - tore the engine down, rechecked everything and put it back together. Ran a drill on the oil pump, got good oil pressure - and re-test started it (had 60psi). In this video the engine is running very rich, but you get an idea how it sounds with open header and and no turbo. I'll post again when I get it all sorted with a muffler on. Feeling extremely relieved there were no serious problems - :D
 
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We got the engine as tuned as we can get on the engine stand. Runs well. Put the engine in the car and got the computer wired in- working on hooking up the turbo and all the rest of the wiring. I've neglected the car getting the engine running so now we're concentrating on getting the car back together. Here's some pictures showing the turbo's plumbing situation - it's very tight, but it all fits!
pmt4IECzj

pnzVtRsqj

poCrkhWNj
 
That is fantastic!
What oil pump are you using to get 60 psi? I get 40 cold startup that settles to 20 at idle when warm.
 
gus91326":o09rjh0u said:
What oil pump are you using to get 60 psi? .
I'm using a melding pump. The oil pressure will probably be a little lower once the engine has some miles on it.

pmuller9":o09rjh0u said:
Will you coat the header pipes later?
I was planning on coating them, but now that the engine is in the car, I don't really want to take it out to coat them. I'll run it and see how hot the intake gets... If I need to, I'll pull it and coat them this winter.
 
Well done.


This was kind of where I thought Mike1157 might go to back in the early days before Aussie X flow heads, and the
mike1157":2mrbbr0g said:
1978 Ford Fairmont Futura project: "The Gila Monster" Xflow'd Megasquirted, MPFI'd, DIS, T/C'd, A2WI/C'd 250, 4R70W shifted, and 8.8, 3.55 gear rearended.

I've had a lot of fun with all my Cross flows, they always make dependable power with lovely low end torque.

The later Cross flows like mike1157's, , over 9 years from 1976 to 1985, they ratcheted the port area down, but increased / raised the valve area. In 1985, 1.4 sq inches of port area at the gasket, to 2.65 sq inches of valve with a 1.84 diameter intake. A port just 52.5% of the valve area.

1004DtOXEFalconAlloyHeadIIHF5Hondacastcrossflowh.jpg


Iron XC/TE head top (A port 82% of the valve area) 121 hp, despite bigger 1.575" diameter 40 mm ports

HF2 XE alloy head below ( A port 59% of the valve area ). 141 hp, despite smaller 1.300" 33 mm ports

In 1979, the all iron headed XD/TF's got a Blue 3.3/4.1 block, and a Black head with 1.378" 35 mm intake ports, re worked to give an extra 2.5 hp. The XD engine was heaps more ecconomical than the XC. The port area at the gasket face was now down to 1.49 sq inches, for that same 2.38 sq in area valves. A port just 63% of the valve area.

In 1976, the XC/TE 3.3/4.1 had a Blue block, and Blue head with 1.575" diameter 40 mm intake ports, it was 1.95 sq in at the gasket face with a 2.38 sq inches of 1.74" diameter valve. A port 82% of the valve area.

The all mighty XY/XA/ XB 250 2V's, same deal, although they seams to be a lot harder to take a slog around the traffic, they lost a lot of air speed and always end up pulling a lot more more revs to make torque, becasue of huge, 2.13 sq in intake ports, the same area as the 1.65" diameter valves. A port 100% of the valve. The torque grew only past 2200 rpm, 600 rpm higher than the 1v 250, and that was with very good headers and a really mild 256 degree cam

By way of reference, the renown raged low end torque Boss 302 and Cleveland 4V port to valve head area. I think one port was 2.7 sq inches at the gasket face for a 3.7 sq inch 2.19" diameter intake, or a 4.0 sq in 2.25" diameter intake. A port 67 to 73% of the valve area. The heads always had a torque hump at 2800 rpm, then they'd go crazy with power gain. "505" 300 degree and K code 310 degree cams made this thing take off at 28 and make torque at 3500 rpm.


Guys have been cutting off the log head for years, and finding that the early 1961-1962 170/200 heads had only 1.125 " diameter ports with 1 sq inch of port serving a 2.13 sq in 1.65" diameter valve head, or a port 47% of the valve area.

choppedhead.jpg


1962_170_head_c1_or_c2.jpg


The later log heads, it went up in two saw cuts, 1969, about 67%, and then again to port areas of 2.13 sq in intake in 1976, and those D6 onwards valve heads were now typically 1.75", or 2.40 sq in, or 89%. And that's about where most large log heads have been. Only issue is the port shape is an upside down Catheral shape, with a port floor that is stagnant flow, and the roof that is the wrong shape.

I think that what you've done will simply make a bucket load of tire smoking torque, without the characteristic Cross flow roughness, and without the overly large 2V port to valve area.

I really think that the stiffness of iron, and the heat from the exhaust will have no ill effects on your port fuel injected head, and I instinctivly recon that little 200 will stand up and begg.

Here is what a normal late model log head looks like inside, pretty much the same as yours

a host of Americans, like Fast64Ranchero, JTTurbo, Big Al the Hackmiester, who's tool of choice was the Sawzall.

Christams07060.jpg


Big log was a D8
delog1.jpg



Small log like the early ones
200intake5.jpg


Experi Mental Frontal Log-otmy
200intake4.jpg

200intake2.jpg

Aussie Motec Hilbourne style EFI runners with top mount injectors at 30 degree draft angle, taken from the 1990 Hot Sixes Street Machine book with the 292 Chevy on the cover.

fALCON16EFITWO.jpg
 
Thanks, everyone, for all the support - it really helps me to stay motivated!
xctasy - I've been following Mike1157's build from the beginning - I'd love to see him get that car all sorted out to it's full potential. I trolled the turbo section of this forum for a long time - think I read every thread on it - my first thought was to use the Australian cross low head, but I was having enough problems getting parts here in the states and didn't want to deal with trying to get parts from Australia. Then I found Does10s and Fast64Ranchero's threads and got inspiration. I didn't realize with the log head there would be so many logistical problems - like xctsy stated "Only issue is the port shape is an upside down Catheral shape, with a port floor that is stagnant flow, and the roof that is the wrong shape." The port placement and shape have been a major pain and caused much compromise on every aspect of this build. Having said this, I'm happy with the results - I've built this motor to get 350-400 horsepower (trying to keep it street-able) but I believe with a little more design development someone could pull more horsepower out of this set-up.
 
I'm in the process of building the dash panel - I'm mocking it up in the car now. It's looking flat to me -not happy with the way the bottom edges below the speed-o and tack are looking. I want to keep it simple, but I think it needs some detail. Any ideas?
pnP1nXiGj
 
I love fabbing everything I can and especially love seeing other's fab work but in this case...Ive always been a fan of the factory gauge cluster in the 67-68 cars as they come. Add some aftermarket gauges to the factory cluster and you have a winner to me. Keep at it tho, You will make it work!

Matt
 
Yes. Since you've now got space that didn't exist, you have a new freedome to re-establish the old diameters.


The base needs a nacelle


https://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacele&prev=search":v2xc86sb said:
is a designation normally given to the engine mount in aircraft where it is attached to the wing . The nacelle can be used to attach engines , tanks and weapons to the wings and / or fuselage. In some cases, such as the P-38 Lightning fighter, the cockpit itself can be accommodated in a nacelle. The nacelles have a second function: to reduce the drag generated by the structures of the airplane, and therefore have an aerodynamic design. In wind power structures the nacelle is the structure where the propeller is fixed and normally accommodates the generator. It is the part behind the propeller, at the top of the tower


Your point of difference is using a less obtrusive smaller diameter speedo and rev counter, so your missing the base nacelle which is a "fairing" into the metal dash structure.

Somewhere, you have to look at re-establishing the diameter.

If I were you, I'd put a whole bunch of OBDII check lamps in and around each dial, and use it to trouble shoot from your MS system.

Make them covered by black mylar, and only energised when a fault or check sequence is in process.

Basically similar the the AlfaRomeo Montreal.


instruments.jpg


405531-1000-0.jpg






viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70419
Beaus67":v2xc86sb said:
One last thing to add to this thread,
Our custom gauge pod "in the car",


I love the look of those gauges on that dash


day


or night.

Beaus67":v2xc86sb said:
Sorry to be so longwinded with this post but I would be remiss if I didn’t show the modifications needed to the back of the bezel to accept the new gauges. These are the same picture, the highlighted areas had some amount of plastic removed to make way for the gauges. I used a Dremil tool with a fibrous cutting wheel to cut both the plastic and metal parts.


 
Thanks for all the suggestions - I appreciate the ideas (even learned a new word; nacelle). My original plan was to use the Ford dash and use aftermarket gauges, but the factory dash only fits five gauges and I have eight - I want the gauges specifically placed so they can all be seen at a glance - hence a custom made dash panel. At this point my creative abilities are wearing thin - I think I'll just clean it up and install it. Hopefully the steering wheel will distract from the area that bothers me. If it looks crappy, I'll deal with it at a later date - I just want to drive the car! :banghead:
 
67Straightsix":3tqrdsxz said:
Thanks, everyone, for all the support - it really helps me to stay motivated!
xctasy - I've been following Mike1157's build from the beginning - I'd love to see him get that car all sorted out to it's full potential....

12 psi at 50% pwm duty cycle.....https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums ... 3/page-298

madmike1157":3tqrdsxz said:
I'm driving home tonight,.and I'm thinkin..."Do I want to dick with the car tonight?" or do I just cave, go home and lounge around....:shrug:
I consider my options:
I'll do it only if:
I left my computer plugged in,..otherwise it'll be dead,...no power to datalog the runs,..

But there it was,...fully charged.

I'll do it, only if "I feel it" when I walk down the stairs to the basement..

I was feelin it.

It's was still high 80's outside, but the humidity seemed tolerable,..Meh,...what the hell,..I can't talk myself out of it now. I'll take it up and down the highway for a couple of full throttle blasts to see if 50% duty cycle makes any difference.

I' didn't start the DL at first,...I wanted to watch the boost gauge and see if the thing actually goes past 7 before I even bother..

I floor it,..7,8,9,10,11 p.s.i. all are flyin by on the gauge......HOLY HELL!!! the things working at 50% duty cycle!!!

I start the datalog, and turn around,....floor it,....I see the same stuff again,....I do that a couple of times for good measure, and then drop the duty cycle back down to 45% to see if maybe the thing is hitting the overboost protection and is trying to go higher...

Only now the gauge will only read 8.

So I stop, return the thing back to 50%,...and bring it back home...happier that a clam in pond scum..

Lets see what the good ole datalog shows me...

50% duty cycle shows an almost consistent 11.9 p.s.i.....more than I wanted...so lets look back at the 45% duty cycle area of the chart and see what that says...

9.6-10 p.s.i.....clearly,... that gauge is nothing to trust....

So,...I open TS, and drop the duty cycle back from 50% down to 45%...I'm almost there guys.

86% injector duty cycle,..at a stupidly rich 11:1 AFR,..14.5 degrees of timing, and MAT's that go from ambient before the pull to 99* at the end....

Whoopidoo!!! :banana:
 
drag-200stang":2acqdn7m said:
Bump for a super build.
How is it going ?
:thanks:
I have not been able to work on it sense July( Been putting in too many hours at work.)
I'm not going to be able to touch it till November :arg: The car is close to being drive able. still need to finish wiring, make transmission mount and finish exhaust. I really want this thing done by the end of the year. Hopefully my next post will be the car moving under its own power.
 
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