200 65 Mustang

ob1murry

New member
Hey guys, I picked up a 65 Mustang with the 200ci I6 last weekend. The previous owner told me that "it cranks, but won't start" and suggested a likely timing issue. He said the guy he bought it from had rebuilt the shortblock and sold it to him in its current condition. He apparently lacked anything beyond very basic mechanical knowledge, and stated that he had a friend who had promised to help him get it running, but got a new job and could no longer help him out, and that his wife was sick of it sitting in the garage now.

Now, I'm not new to building/working on cars, but most of my experience in doing so is in early 90's import fuel injected DOHC turbo engines, so a lot of what I am experiencing here is new to me.

Tonight was really the first chance I had to really try to get it going. Aside from some very obvious issues that I started taking car of right away (trashed carb, plugs gapped out of spec, etc...), I wanted to check for fuel and spark. It's not getting any fuel (an issue I have to investigate farther, as I didn't get beyond the "well shit" phase). Before I went to check for spark though, I wanted to make sure that the ignition timing hadn't accidentally been set 180 out, which speaking to the previous owner and his son, seemed likely. When I went to turn the engine over by hand, I noticed that the engine seemed to turn over VERY EASILY despite the fact that I still had plugs in every cylinder except #1. How easily should this turn over? If I had encountered that feeling in something like a 4G63, I would immediately begun swearing and conducting a leak down test to see where it was leaking. Seeing as to how this setup is so new to me though, I figured I would ask if maybe it was possible that maybe the pushrods were the incorrect length or something else that could be causing the issue, or even if that is just normal for this engine. Prior to this, I had been holding out hope that the timing issue the previous owner mentioned was going to ignition related, and not mechanical, as the "previous previous owner" who had done the shortblock rebuild had timed it, and seemed to understand what he was doing.

Basically, I guess that I am just looking for someone who has a better understanding of this motor to guide me on where to go from here. My original plan had always been to swap the 200 for a 289 or 302 later down the road, but over the last week, the idea of keeping the 200 had really begun to grow on me, so it would be a bummer to hear that there is something wrong with it that is going to necessitate tearing it down.
 
Hi, since you don't know anything about the engine, let's assume it can be anywhere from very good, to very bad. Everything may be right on the money, or what needs fixing. So, I would think as you turn this engine by hand you may not feel major resistance, but you should get the normal hissing sounds of air entering and exiting. Bring it up to #1 on the balancer and see where the distributor is. Pull the plugs and check compression. Go from there. Does the fuel pump pump fuel, do you have spark? The simple things first. Also get the Falcon Performance Handbook, and a Chilton's manual. Good luck
 
go B Ron!
2X
(y)
Congrats on ur purchase (of a motor) that has many yrs of improvements, rd race & track titles, etc. Also on ur desire to stick w/it rather than go bent8.
The 'thumb' is also for the "Handbook" purchase. Matt at vintage inlines dot com has 1 for bout $25. Oneada best prts bout the book is a staged build process (drive it while U incrementally improve performance, MPGs, durability, handling, etc) so while waiting for delivery of the publication click on the above link (middle blue horizontal bar above) at "Tech Archive". Look at the carb/dizzy feedback system esp - it will B quite different frm ur other project.

My thought is:
to begin ownership of a non-running engine, one U may B unfamiliar w/in design or past ownership - start at the beginning.
Learn about what it can offer, decide the level of return on investment (i.e. match it to ur use/application desires level), and begin at the beginning on degreing the cam, ID the cam, measure the deck/compare to oe, ditto on head, ck about piston/rod composition/over boar, C if it still has '65 LOM/SCV feedback sys for carb/dizzy advance, and so forth.
Just one man's opinion. Some 1 who is not a mechanic, some 1 who is very low budget, some 1 who has plenty of time....me!

Finally, thanks for stopping by! Hope to see more of ya~
W E L C O M E !!!
 
B RON CO":jnjdgd38 said:
Hi, since you don't know anything about the engine, let's assume it can be anywhere from very good, to very bad. Everything may be right on the money, or what needs fixing. So, I would think as you turn this engine by hand you may not feel major resistance, but you should get the normal hissing sounds of air entering and exiting. Bring it up to #1 on the balancer and see where the distributor is. Pull the plugs and check compression. Go from there. Does the fuel pump pump fuel, do you have spark? The simple things first. Also get the Falcon Performance Handbook, and a Chilton's manual. Good luck

It is definitely moving air, and has at least slight compression and vacuum when turning it over by hand, it's just the fact that there was practically no resistance at all that led me to immediately suspect there may be an issue. I'll see if I can find some time today or tomorrow to compression test it, and report back on the numbers. That said, it would have to be super low in at least 5 cylinders to explain the issue, which would indicate an issue with assembly. I'm right with you on the could be anything from something minor to something necessitating a complete teardown, which is why I came here.

I was bringing it up to TDC on #1 to check the ignition timing, which is when I originally noticed the potential compression issue.

There is no fuel flowing, unfortunately by the time I got to that, it was getting kind of late. Hopefully with a 3 day weekend here, I can spend some time in the garage and get some more answers.

I agree, simple things first. I was checking for fuel and spark, which is what led me down the compression hole. No sense in potentially sinking money into a new distributor, plugs, wires, fuel pump, etc... if after it's all done, it turns out the motor is trashed.

I had looked for a Haynes or Chilton manual before, but all of them were marked for the V8, I take it the Falcon manual contains all of the information for the 200ci?
 
an expensive shop manual would B best ($100 + ?) and
the "Handbook" is something many here use along with the "Tech Archive" above.
If U have access to a computer, this site.
 
Hi, my Chilton's manual for my Bronco has V8 and 6 cylinder info. If you remove the fuel line at the carb and crank the motor the fuel should come pulsing out and fill a coffee can pretty quickly. Good luck
 
B RON CO":3kscs63b said:
Hi, my Chilton's manual for my Bronco has V8 and 6 cylinder info. If you remove the fuel line at the carb and crank the motor the fuel should come pulsing out and fill a coffee can pretty quickly. Good luck

That's exactly what I did to verify that it had no fuel no matter how long it was cranked.

I was able to verify it has spark today, and ALMOST got it started using started fluid.

Pretty sure the pump is junk luckily the local AutoZone seems to have one in stock, so I'm gonna shower and then go grab it. Hopefully it flows after that, and I can get it started. There weren't any leaks after I topped off the gas tank, so if it isn't the pump, I'm guessing blockage in the line somewhere.
 
Well, the new fuel pump is in, but it's still not moving enough fuel. If I pull the feed line off after I try to crank it, there is definitely some gas in there, but just a bit, no where near enough to actually do anything. No leaks. Any ideas? And before it gets suggested, yes there is gas in it, I put in about 6 gallons this morning just in case.
 
Hi, since you don't know what kind of gunk is in the tank, I would put a small gas can on the floor, under the fuel pump, and feed it through a rubber line from the gas can to the pump. I would check compression first. Good luck
 
i've blown out lines, used a can, rebuilt carbs, new filter B4 starts in some cases
(never mind unfrz a stuck motor, etc). No need 2 "tear it down".
U (I hope) got it easier than this, keep in touch.
 
B RON CO":1dg4v4sj said:
Hi, since you don't know what kind of gunk is in the tank, I would put a small gas can on the floor, under the fuel pump, and feed it through a rubber line from the gas can to the pump. I would check compression first. Good luck

See, things like that are what I tend to overlook. I'm so used to having in-tank pumps that it never occurred to me to just bring the fuel can up and try to pump it out of the can. It did move some gas this way, and the engine seriously tried to start, but just wouldn't do it. I'll have to look over the timing again and make sure it is ok, and then clean out the tank and try and blow out the fuel line.

Unfortunately, I seem to have missplaced my compression tester during our move last year, and may need to go pick up a new one.

chad":1dg4v4sj said:
i've blown out lines, used a can, rebuilt carbs, new filter B4 starts in some cases
(never mind unfrz a stuck motor, etc). No need 2 "tear it down".
U (I hope) got it easier than this, keep in touch.

Yeah, like I said, not the first car I've worked on, and I've certainly had a few that required some pretty serious work before they moved, so it's not too big a deal to me, I just want to make sure I'm running my steps by people more familiar with the setup that I am, to make sure I am not overlooking anything.
 
:...running my steps by people more familiar..."
ahhhh, the benifits of frd6 membership,
what else R we here for (each other)?
There's all ways some 1 'more familiar' here than ones self.
Nice thing here? they do so w/o ego - so I keep commin back.
& keep learnin!
 
Yeah, don't those simple ideas just kill you? Sometimes you get a couple guys whose opinions go in different directions. But that's okay, because if the one doesn't work the other one just might. And now you know even more than before. This is THE place to ask questions and get answers without flames.

Several people came and went because we are not excitable. You look like one who might stay.
 
Hey! I'm excitable, I'm excitable!
:eek:
 
B RON CO":6xpcuxtc said:
Hi, since you don't know what kind of gunk is in the tank, I would put a small gas can on the floor, under the fuel pump, and feed it through a rubber line from the gas can to the pump. I would check compression first. Good luck

Well, I gave up on trying to find my compression tester and just bought another one. I finally got a chance to head out to the garage and check it out this afternoon....not encouraging. Everything seemed fine up until the end:

#1 - 140
#2 - 150
#3 - 140
#4 - 145
#5 - 135
#6 - 70

Legit bummer, I was really looking forward to trying to drive the car around while I worked on all the body work, and if the engine needs torn out that probably won't happen. I suppose it could be something simple, but I'm not betting on it, I'm guessing the rings are trash.
 
Hi, that 70 is not good. Squirt oil in the cylinder and test it again. If the compression comes up it means bad rings. If it stays low it is probably valve job time. I would get it started and running as best as possible, then figure out what you need to work on in what order. Good luck
 
+1, you'll know everything you need to know after you do a leak down or do what B RON CO says. It may be a valve or lifter/valvetrain issue.

The #6 cylinder seems to be the most susceptible to lean burn and detonation damage from too much timing or heat. I wouldn't be surprised if a ring land is broken or damaged. My 250 had visible pitting on the piston crown only on six when I got it and tore it down. If that's what it is the good news is that it really isn't that bad if everything else is still ok. You'll need to find an oem piston, used or otherwise. I have several in the scrap pile. As do probably many members of this forum. Ream the ridge, pull the piston, hone, swap piston and re-ring that one cylinder. While you have the head off have it checked and milled .025" to compensate for the felpro gasket if needed. Check the rod caps and mains while you're down there, at least the one rod anyway. I did this job with a friend on his 170 last summer. Supervan fully loaded 3000 miles cross country in the summer mountains, etc with 30+ deg of initial, #6 cylinder lands gave way past portland heading north. The thing still made it all the way up and out to San Juan island and back to my house nearby before repair. It's running to this day and running well, daily driver.

Or swap to a V8, once you go down the path of the lowly straight 6 you can get hooked. Turn back while you still can! ;)
 
"...Turn back while you still can!..."

No can do, Capin.
- -a Mutineer
:eek:
 
Hi, yes poor #6 runs hot and lean. What is next? I would get it running and put Marvel Mystery Oil int the crank case and the gas. When it runs I would look at the tank and fuel line. Did you know your gas tank has a drain in the corner? They come out pretty easily up through the trunk. I needed to wash my Mustang gas tank out because of dirt. In the old days it was common to just wash them out and let them drain and dry. If it is really bad I would just replace the tank and sender. Good luck
 
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