Toploader chatter at idle

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65Fastback
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Toploader chatter at idle

Post #1 by 65Fastback » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:39 am

Hello,

since my 4 speed toploader is rebuild, I notice a chattering noise from the transmission at idle when the clutch is engaged (no foot on pedal). The noise dissapears when I disengage the clutch (pedal down).
Looking once again into the trans, I see that the shift fork for 3+4 has noticable play in the groove where it is running on the main shaft. The shift fork for 1+2 is snug fit in its groove. Everything else regardig axail and radial play looks as it should be.

I can only hear the chatter at idle. Once I rev up it gets more silent but as engine and exhaust noises goes up, I cant tell exactly.
It seems that when I push the shift lever a bit in direction of 3rd gear at idle, the noise goes down.

The engine has moderate smoooth idle run due to a larger cam, so it shakes a bit, which I think causes the vibration that makes the trans chatter.

So, is transmission chatter at idle a common thing with 50 years old toploaders?
Is it likely that the fork is the cause?

Thanks a lot in advance.
Cheers
Joerg
65 Mustang Fastback, 68 Inline 200, OZ 250 Head, Holley 2V 7448 350 cfm, Comp 260 cam, Hooker Headers, 2” dual exhaust, DSII, MSD 6A, 4 speed toploader, 3.2 rear end.

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bubba22349
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:15 pm

It can be! Yes your on the right track in focusing on the shift forks as one of the likely causes of your chatter, and or if it's even been installed correctly. Wear or incorrect shift fork install and or even a gear being installed wrong (such as the reverse idler gear being installed backwards) can also be the cause. See below link for more info and pictures that may help you figure it all out. Good luck :nod:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d ... nsmission/
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Cool23
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #3 by Cool23 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:55 pm

Have you checked the Thrust bearing ?
V8's are great but Six Inlines Just Fine. Cummins Advert.

The link to my project on this forum http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41598

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bubba22349
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:48 pm

A few more things to consider with the trans in neutral, the clutch engaged, and engine running. In this senereo the transmissions front bearing is going to be always turning, along with the bottom cluster shaft, plus the needle bearings it rotates on and the reverse idler gear and its needle bearings. So these are some of the other areas to look at too. Good luck and let us know what you find out. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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wsa111
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #5 by wsa111 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:41 pm

Could be the throwout bearing hitting the clutch fingers. The spring keeping the bearing in place may be broken or bent, both letting the bearing rattle against the clutch ?? Or is there a spring missing to keep play in the linkage away from the clutch fingers.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, HEI dist. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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drag-200stang
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #6 by drag-200stang » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:36 am

wsa111 wrote:Could be the throwout bearing hitting the clutch fingers. The spring keeping the bearing in place may be broken or bent, both letting the bearing rattle against the clutch ?? Or is there a spring missing to keep play in the linkage away from the clutch fingers.

This was my first thought also, if the trans. was assembled right.
Maybe shift linkage out of adjustment.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
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best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
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65Fastback
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #7 by 65Fastback » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:50 pm

Thanks for all this valueable input.
I see there are several things to be checked to nail it down.

I would exclude two items from the reason why list:
- Throwout bearing at clutch finger: I have a diaphragm type clutch spring and lots of free play adjusted. Throwout bearing and attachment spring looked good last time. The spring at the clutch release lever is in place.
- Transmission bearings: We replaced all main and needle bearings except at the reverse idle gear. Worn bearings sound different to me (had this heavily before the restauration).

So, installation error on shift fork or worn shift fork sounds most likely to me.

Another observation from today: When I push the shift lever towards the 3rd gear position at idle, with engine running, the chatter goes down significantly. Points me to a fork issue. To go deeper, I need to put the trans out once again.

Thanks so far again for leading me the right direction!
Great link to the mustang monthly article!

Cheers
Joerg
65 Mustang Fastback, 68 Inline 200, OZ 250 Head, Holley 2V 7448 350 cfm, Comp 260 cam, Hooker Headers, 2” dual exhaust, DSII, MSD 6A, 4 speed toploader, 3.2 rear end.

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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #8 by mustang6 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:12 pm

I have found the 3-4 shift fork to be worn more than the 1-2 in many 4 speeds and wondered if people don't tend to rest their hand on the shifter for long periods of time in 4th gear cruising down the highway. Not sure if that would contribute but in transmissions where they are interchangeable I have swapped the forks to even out the tolerances.
Last edited by mustang6 on Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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65Fastback
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Re: Toploader chatter at idle

Post #9 by 65Fastback » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:15 pm

Hi Scott,

nice engine/drivetrain spec of your Mustang in your footer.
I saw the David Kee sells replacment forks. Not cheap for us overseas but for sure worth the money.

Cheers
Joerg

65 Mustang Fastback, 68 Inline 200, OZ 250 Head, Holley 2V 7448 350 cfm, Comp 260 cam, Hooker Headers, 2” dual exhaust, DSII, MSD 6A. 4 speed toploader, 3.2 rear end.
65 Mustang Fastback, 68 Inline 200, OZ 250 Head, Holley 2V 7448 350 cfm, Comp 260 cam, Hooker Headers, 2” dual exhaust, DSII, MSD 6A, 4 speed toploader, 3.2 rear end.

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