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Alternative 200 six connecting rod

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pmuller9
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Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #1 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:29 pm

We had a joint effort (I don't mean anyone was smoking anything) looking for an aftermarket rod for the 200 and drag-200stang found that the Toyota 1JZ rod would be a good candidate.

4.931" center to center
2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin
1.020" BE Width
1.00 PE width.
22mm pin
Comes in sets of six.

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chad
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #2 by chad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:47 pm

"good" according to what?
exact length
to get closer - as an alternative to machining a zero deck
beefier
lighter
less expensive
etc
?
Oh, wait, I C U have some specs...I thought that wuz yer sig...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Alternative aftermarket 200 six connecting rod

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:54 pm

You're right.
I should have added that we were looking for a stronger rod that would hold up to turbocharging or any other extreme high performance application in the form of aftermarket 4340 steel "H" beams
The other consideration is having a performance rod that doesn't cost much more than than resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts, polished beams and shot peening.

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rocklord
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Re: Alternative aftermarket 200 six connecting rod

Post #4 by rocklord » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:12 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You're right.
I should have added that we were looking for a stronger rod that would hold up to turbocharging or any other extreme high performance application in the form of aftermarket 4340 steel "H" beams
The other consideration is having a performance rod that doesn't cost much more than than resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts, polished beams and shot peening.


Like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-Rod ... 1Q&vxp=mtr
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 pm

Yep, like those and several others that are available.
Obviously the rods would require custom forged pistons but a person would most likely be going that route anyway for performance build.

Does anyone know what the big end width is for the 200 connecting rod?

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chad
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #6 by chad » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:50 am

Thanks!
is there a place here to assemble these 'alternatives" & their benefits? may B even prt #s, prices and companies?
A catalogue of sorts (for Matt to supply us or just as an access point)... :hmmm:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:03 pm

Benefits;
The stock rod is 4.715" with a rod length to stroke ratio of 1.5
The aftermarket "H" beam rod is 4.931" which increases the rod length to stroke ratio to 1.58.
The piston side loading is decreased which is very important to those doing forced induction or high rpm engines.
The longer rod postions the piston pin at a 1.31" CH which is plenty room for rings.

The stock rod or "I" beams in general have a tendancy to bend sideways just below the small end especially if detenation is encounted.
Case in point: During a tuning session on our blown alky engine the engine went lean and bent 6 out of 8 Callies Ultra XD "I" beam rods that have angle arches from the small end to the beam to prevent bending. We changed to a different design and never had the problem again even under detonation.
The "H" beams handle high torque loads better.
I'm not really sure why I'm doing this paragragh when there is no real comparision between the stock rod and a 4340 steel "H" beam rod.

If you google "Toyota 1JZGTE connecting rods" you will find most of the brands with prices ranging from $300 to $1800.
The rod sets that are under $300 do not come with rod bolts so the buyer can select between the different grades of ARP bolts.
The cost of polishing the beam, shot peening and resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts is close to the cost of the low price aftermarket "H" beam rod.

If you have a 250 six then the 6.135" BBC 2.100" journal rod has similar benefits.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #8 by bubba22349 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:50 pm

:thumbup: great info maybe we should start a few sticky’s for different engine build parts combos. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:28 pm

Does someone know the big end width of the stock 200 rod?

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #10 by 67Straightsix » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:40 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Does someone know the big end width of the stock 200 rod?


The big end width measures .992".

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 am

67Straightsix wrote:The big end width measures .992".

Thanks 67Straightsix
Just needed to be sure.

The aftermarket rods will fit the crankshaft by either taking .014" off each side of the rod's big end or off of each cheek of the crank throw.
The crank rod journal gets turned down to 2.047" with a finished diameter for the correct bearing clearance.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #12 by bubba22349 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:37 pm

And maybe also offset grinding the crank throws for a small gain in stroke while your at it! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #13 by cr_bobcat » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:39 pm

Dagnabbit....eBay just ran a 20% off deal a few days ago. If I were on top of things I would have snagged a set... :bang:
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #14 by cr_bobcat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:07 am

So has there been any movement here on someone trying one of these alternatives yet? Just curious.
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #15 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:30 pm

cr_bobcat wrote:Dagnabbit....eBay just ran a 20% off deal a few days ago. If I were on top of things I would have snagged a set... :bang:


I actually did pick up a set during one of those sales. Got the discount plus had a gift card! Figured it was worth a shot for the amount of actual cash I spent...

I read a ton about that company maxpeedingrods (well, all that I could find...pretty scarce on information). An MG site had some dude that did some testing on them and said they are what they claim to be as far as he could tell (including verification that the bolts are genuine ARP...can find the link if anyone wants). Some claim they are the factory for eagle. Was pretty wary going in because of some stuff my dad's friends went through with Chinese made Chevy heads.

They came in last night and stunk the house up. Haven't weighed them...but the rods look nice enough. I'll take them with the engine to the machine shop when I get my head milled and see what they think. Probably going to use Clay Smith being they ain't that far away and were awesome over the phone.

Just gotta coordinate a trip in my wife's current car since I tore apart this mustang :lol:
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #16 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:32 pm

First off, appologies to fast64ranchero. I don't have enough posts yet to reply to PMs.

I did some math though (kind of thinking about cam/rod combination):

Just going off some stock values from the tech archive:

Stock:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.715
- static compression ratio (SCR): 8.5:1 (guesstimate)
- dynamic compression ratio (DCR): 7.53:1
- roughly stock cam 252 @ 110, 4 degrees adv

With 1JZ Supra Rods:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.929
- SCR: 9.5:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.88:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv: 7.61:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv: 7.94:1
- SCR: 9.1:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.56:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv 7.30:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv 8.29
Those cam profiles are Clay Smith.

Don't know if that's helpful and it's all estimates and playing around with some online calcs. This article was kind of informative as to why people would choose one or the other.: http://blog.diamondracing.net/understan ... aft-stroke

Living in California with our super extreme 91 octane, I've gotta plan ahead or be forced into a water/meth setup or something. I'm also kind of "directed" by the wife's choice of keeping the C4 (which is why 112 LSA). Seems like I'll get more options for tuning with the longer rods because of the kind of "dwell" at the bottom and top...but I think that I'll start running into valve clearance of I keep bumping up the static compression (of course, there are pistons that could help too).

For turbo or supercharged where static compression stays a bit lower, seems like a perfect fit (part of my thoughts about going this direction was a "just in case, plan ahead thing").

If I'm completely wrong or something, let me know. I'm learning too! Haha.

I haven't been able to get to the rebuild yet because I've got a 19 month old. The time I've had has been devoted to the brakes and rear end. My wife only wanted to be able to stop and turn with power. I've also been kinda scouring the Google maps and local errand drives for closer machine shops with better hours (surprisingly hard to get any kind of information down in LA sometimes). Should be in October though!

I'm a rambler sometimes.

Edit: fixed some typos.
Last edited by 66contriviad-coupe on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:54 pm

The two primary reasons for the longer Supra rods is:
The longer rod reduces the rod angle which reduces the side loading on the 200 six.
The stronger than stock rod allows those with the aluminun heads and/or power adders to push the limits of the 200.

Those rods also require a custom piston so you get to choose the SCR.
The most economical forged pistons will be 4032 alloy pistons from Autotec.

The valves are recessed in the head far enough that most cams will not create a valve to piston clearance issue.
It is always a good thing to check anyway.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:12 pm

66contriviad-coupe wrote:First off, appologies to fast64ranchero. I don't have enough posts yet to reply to PMs.

I did some math though (kind of thinking about cam/rod combination):

Just going off some stock values from the tech archive:

Stock:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.715
- static compression ratio (SCR): 8.5:1 (guesstimate)
- dynamic compression ratio (DCR): 7.53:1
- roughly stock cam 252 @ 110, 4 degrees adv

With 1JZ Supra Rods:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.929
- SCR: 9.5:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.88:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv: 7.61:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv: 7.94:1
- SCR: 9.1:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.56:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv 7.30:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv 8.29
Those cam profiles are Clay Smith.

Don't know if that's helpful and it's all estimates and playing around with some online calcs. This article was kind of informative as to why people would choose one or the other.: http://blog.diamondracing.net/understan ... aft-stroke

Living in California with our super extreme 91 octane, I've gotta plan ahead or be forced into a water/meth setup or something. I'm also kind of "directed" by the wife's choice of keeping the C4 (which is why 112 LSA). Seems like I'll get more options for tuning with the longer rods because of the kind of "dwell" at the bottom and top...but I think that I'll start running into valve clearance of I keep bumping up the static compression (of course, there are pistons that could help too).

For turbo or supercharged where static compression stays a bit lower, seems like a perfect fit (part of my thoughts about going this direction was a "just in case, plan ahead thing").

If I'm completely wrong or something, let me know. I'm learning too! Haha.

I haven't been able to get to the rebuild yet because I've got a 19 month old. The time I've had has been devoted to the brakes and rear end. My wife only wanted to be able to stop and turn with power. I've also been kinda scouring the Google maps and local errand drives for closer machine shops with better hours (surprisingly hard to get any kind of information down in LA sometimes). Should be in October though!

I'm a rambler sometimes.

Edit: fixed some typos.


To your above specs you can add that

Stock 1966 200 head has a 52 CC Combustion Chamber
Stock 200 steel shim head gasket is .022
Pistion is down the hole .019
200 Piston Dish is 6.5 CC I think
The stock 200 Compression Ratio is 8.7 to 1

Good luck on your project :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #19 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:29 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
To your above specs you can add that

Stock 1966 200 head has a 52 CC Combustion Chamber
Stock 200 steel shim head gasket is .022
Pistion is down the hole .019
200 Piston Dish is 6.5 CC I think
The stock 200 Compression Ratio is 8.7 to 1

Good luck on your project :thumbup: :nod:


I think I have the thermacor/smog head with whatever is in there. Somewhere I had read it was 8.5. good to know that it is probably 8.7. It ain't staying that though. Thanks for the heads up. I can actually verify what it is at some point. Deck isnt blocked and it had a felpro. (I guess my use of stock may be wrong). :beer:
Thanks bubba22349!

pmuller9 wrote:Your DCR calculations are good except you need to swap figures between the 9.1 and 9.5 SCR.

The two primary reasons for the longer Supra rods is:
The longer rod reduces the rod angle which reduces the side loading on the 200 six.
The stronger than stock rod allows those with the aluminun heads and/or power adders to push the limits of the 200.

Those rods also require a custom piston so you get to choose the SCR.
The most economical forged pistons will be 4032 alloy pistons from Autotec.

The valves are recessed in the head far enough that most cams will not create a valve to piston clearance issue.
It is always a good thing to check anyway.


Thanks for catching the typo on my transcription with the 9.1/9.5 swap. Copy/paste/formatting skills have failed!

Totally was planning for Autotec pistons...kind of just thinking out loud about pistons clearance issues and to keep that in mind when I go to the machine shop and have them measure out for pistons. I have Yella Terra 1.65 and that 274 Clay Smith cam advertises 0.495 @ 1.65:1 ratio and I had read on either the tech archive or the handbook 0.500 was a safe distance (can't remember and haven't verified).

I'm on the list for the aluminum head, but I'm probably going to have to go forward with the cast iron one (1969) until I get a notification. I guess I'm somewhat trying to maximize my performance now with some plan down the road.

Thanks pmuller9 and drag-200stang for sending me down this path though (and doing the intial research). It's given me a lot to think about and learn. Pretty cool stuff.

I'll take some pictures at some point soon. I did weigh the new rods on my little digital scale. They seemed pretty darn spot on but I don't know of the scale is super precise (good enough to mail guitar pedals via USPS) or if they all balanced the same top/bottom-wise because I don't know how to do that.
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:21 pm

From fast64ranchero

Image
Image
Image

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chad
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MR X connecting rod

Post #21 by chad » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:39 pm

G.D.,
Nice lookin jewelry.
Think I'd wear it around my neck ona string...
8^ )
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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rocklord
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #22 by rocklord » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:40 am

Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #23 by fast64ranchero » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:00 am

rocklord wrote:Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.


I looked for early EAO 2.0L pinto rods, I was unable to find stock length unless I went through Burton in the UK. looks like everyone goes to 5.050" and that's a tad too long for a good ring pack on a custom piston.

If you could find some, the stock length would work, (and you wouldn't have to say I have Toyota rods in my Ford Engine :lol:)
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #24 by drag-200stang » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 pm

The pinto rods are a direction to go but do not seem to be as readily available...The 24mm pin is not as the popular as 22mm with more wall thickness selections...I believe the pinto big end is wider than the 1jz which is already too wide...When I was researching a better rod all I could find is the 1jz and the high performance rod mfg. by me had some on the shelf in a six pac...
Something i noticed is what is listed for the big end and pin end on the 1jz is about .0004 different than the 2jz which I thought was odd, it maybe just a print mistake...Just make sure the the bearing you get fits your rod with the right crush and the pin you get fits the rod you have with the proper clearance.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:28 pm

TTT

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rocklord
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #26 by rocklord » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:39 am

Another alternative rod would be from the Ford 1.6L Kent engine. Here's a set (4) of H-beam rods on eBay for $190.00 ($380 for 6 +2), free shipping:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-Rod ... ctupt=true

Specs:
Forged 4340 aircraft chrome moly quality steel
Center to center length 125.17mm (4.928")
Big end diameter 52.91mm
Small end diameter 20.62mm
Big end width 26.77mm
Small end width 22.35mm
3/8" ARP 2000 bolts
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #27 by 62Cometman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:41 am

I feel as though i should know this, or maybe i already do and forgot :roll: , but is the 200 rod the same as the 170? Im pulling the 170 from my comet this next winter and was planning a proper rebuild for boost and was worried about the rods so these would be a piece of mind if they would work. I cant find any specs via length on the factory 170 rods.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, Dagenham Trans, 2.83:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #28 by rocklord » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:33 am

62Cometman wrote:I feel as though i should know this, or maybe i already do and forgot :roll: , but is the 200 rod the same as the 170? Im pulling the 170 from my comet this next winter and was planning a proper rebuild for boost and was worried about the rods so these would be a piece of mind if they would work. I cant find any specs via length on the factory 170 rods.


The 170 and 200 rod are the same length, 4.715". The 144 rod is longer, 4.855".
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
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fast64ranchero
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #29 by fast64ranchero » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:48 pm

I am making progress with build using 1JZ rods that Puller pictured above, the crank has been ground to fit the rods without any problems, they even offered to offset grind it for more stroke. I am sticking with stock stroke to help reduce side load. JE pistons are on order. Grinding the crank for the 1JZ rods was $275 if anyone wants to know.
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #30 by gumby23 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:06 pm

fast64ranchero wrote:I am making progress with build using 1JZ rods that Puller pictured above, the crank has been ground to fit the rods without any problems, they even offered to offset grind it for more stroke. I am sticking with stock stroke to help reduce side load. JE pistons are on order. Grinding the crank for the 1JZ rods was $275 if anyone wants to know.

This is great info, thanks for the update!
If my engine didn't already have JE pistons on stock rods, I would be looking at these 1jz rods pretty hard. Napkin math says there isn't room to offset the rod journal and destroke enough to make a stock pin height piston fit. :( I cannot throw that money away, but am keeping the 1jz rod info in my hip pocket for next time.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #31 by xctasy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:43 pm

Ford mastered parts scrambling better than the Japanese. Ford did so because the Whiz Kids hated spending money, so the prevant thought was that it was chepaer to retool minute changes, as it re-used existing tooling to make other parts in different engine families. And you better belive FoMoCo got a lot of milage out of 4.926" conrods from the 1600 engines. The Kent 4 cylinder engine used in the 1969-1971 1600 Pinto and 1979-1981 Ford Fiesta were based on the same tooling from the Kent plant that made the 1951 four cylinder Counsel and Six cylinder Zephyr compacts. Its not too far to streached that to the Cosworth DFX, DFV V8 and the production Kent based BDA...All were all based on the same bore pitch, just like the railway lines of England are based on the Roman carriageway wheel path widths. Toyota copied the better Cosworth sourced forged 105E and later Kent conrods. So that is why they would do okay in a Falcon six. The DF series Cosworth conrods are variously Titanium or forged steel in 5.125 to 5.375" sizes, and are based on the 302 5.09/5.115" blank. Both the BD series and DF series engines could take 10000 rpm rev limits with the rods Cosworth used.

The US industry uses very clever cyrogenics, and I'd be looking at stock replacemnt race BD or DF Ford conrods in better beam design did yeomans service at the Brick Yard and in GTP and Formula Atlantic racing, as they are still the ultimate. To consider using Toyota Jay Zee rods is fine...they are essentially Kent/Pinto EOA knock-offs in size.

Background:-
Both Toyota (much later, IIRC, 1982) and Nissan (in the Cedric era when the Prince company Chapter 22's) copied the Kent 1300/1500/1600 conrods.

Those Ford conrods, even the stock ones, were really good in terms of metal composition. From 1963, the five bearing 1500 became the basic foundation for the Lotus Cortina "Twin Cam", Lotus 7, Elan and after 1969, the whole bunch of Cosworth BDA engines. The rods went up in center to center size to 5.23" in the high performance Escort rallye cars, and there were other minute changes. This is not anti Japanese sentiment, but the L series 4 cylinder engines and later NAPS-Z crossflow's were bascially BMW 1500 and Kent 4 cylinder Super Short Stroke engine copies, cranks interchangable with the same 3.78 bore spacings. Conrods followed the same 22 mm wrist pin BMW and Ford sizes. The six cylinder L20, L24, L26 and L28's, the diesel LD24's and LD28's, same as the six cylinder BMW 2.5/2.8/3.0/3.2/3.5 engines 3.937" centers for the inner two cylinders, but the outer cylinders were Ford/bmw 4 cylinder bore spacings.

My observation is that TRD essentially recopied the 4AGE as a six cylinder 2.0 and 2.8 engine, and it went 24 valve in 1982 only in the smaller 2 liter JDM version. In side, its pretty much conrod-ed and blocked like a six cylinder version of the 4 cylinder 1558 cc 1963 to 1975 model year Lotus Twin Cam as used in the Seven, Europa Sprint, Elan Big Valve engine. Itself, just a non cross flow 1500 Cortina engine with better internals to cope with 7000 rpm rev limits and 118 to 126 net hp.

Ford did the basic innovation work on making the short stroke Falcon and all that Kent Escort/Cortina Lotus and Cosworth stuff modular engines.

So Ford kept everything the same by changing piston "compression height with a few common conrods. Regards the 144-170-200-250 devlopement, you got a 68% capacity gain in a 4.08 bore spacing engine. The base model 144-170's kept 3.5 pistons, then they stroked and 187 in Argentina, then and then overbored to make 188's and 200, and then tried tall deck 250 strokers. The Roy Lunn's and Robert L McNamara's of the Ford Motor Company in England and the USA in the late 50's had a better idea, and gave super short stroke Ford engines a truly great name by spending a little more money of short conrods with shallower pistons and deck heights than was common. Lunn is credited as being the "father of the modern SUV" and "the godfather of the Ford GT40.", but he was also the Super Short Stroke farther too. The whole Ford Total Performance era from 1963 then turned stock Kent, Essex and Windsor and Cleveland and Lima plant iron blocks into the building blocks of specialist cast iron or light alloy racing engines, with Indy cars, Lemans, SCCA, World Rallye and Championship of Makes, and European Touring car challenges being totally swamped by engines swinging factory derived Ford conrods. Some of the Cologne V6 rods were exceptionally bad, and never got fixed up even with the 4.0 liter Exporer/Mustang SOHC. cONROD failure in the 2.9 liter RS2600 Capris was not uncommon at 8000rpm , but it was just a stock factory 5.14" forged conrod with a 24 mm wrist pin with the best Mahle pistons money could buy. 320 hp, and 500 mile races kind of did that.

The old bore spacing's of the older four and six cylinder engines were kept to save on tooling and machine room and kept the transfer lines the same. They then added deck height only when you had no other conrod options.


The 1969-1974 small bore spacing European import OHC Pinto 2000 used Cosworth BDA pistons, Kent 1600 conrod base forgings, with standard 24 mm Cologne/Saab V4/ 2600/2800 V6 wrist pins. In 1974, the enlarged big bore spacing 2300 got made in the US Lima plant, it got a Volvo bore spacing, and down graded to 144-170-200-250 style 23.16 mm wrist pins, and they went up to 5.20" conrod centers.
Last edited by xctasy on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #32 by xctasy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:05 pm

Its "Rings verses pistons walls in a fight to the death with forged aluminum slugs."

The bores will bed in, and make a moderate boundary layer of very tough low oil retention metal which may use a quart of oil per thousand miles if its as smooth. If its an old fashioned rough out, then it might just take a little longer to bed, and there is the 500 mile verses 6000 mile bed-in.

Piston slap happens,noticeable at 1500 rpm, often with forged pistons that don't have a to-spec plateau hone. Love RaceTeks, SPS'S, Ross pistons, Manley etc, all great stuff. Its the advances in piston and machining tolerances that allow newer non cast high silicon aluminum bore brushers work.There is a whole raft of work that has been done on conrods, and lets face it, a turboed 6 cylinder Toyota rod won't be a problem.


Instead of just thinking about great forged RaceTeks, consider the whole modern development of copying the full ring pack and cylinder bore fine texture specs from the post 1996 HyperEutectic Zolner and Mahle piston Fords. I've seen some issues with kicking out forged pistons on engines that don't have a proper bedding in process. My first was my mate Blairs attempt to upgrade from the factory cast 351 4V pistons to better TRW 351C bore brushers. We got the running clearance too close, and scored the bore. Same think happened with Mike 1157. The RaceTeks need very carefull set up using modern bore texture, and that means spending on someone who can give you the boundary layer target figures.Not average Ra...

Then you can fit in whatever rods you like most.

I'm against forged pistons unless you've gotten a proper bore texture. I'm all for better rods. I'm not into adding things to things unless it solves a clear problem. Breaking through the oil layer, and having to redo block machining is a common problem on six cylinder Fords when you go to forged pistons. Its a whole package, about finding the right mixture of parts.

Total Seal was fist off the blocks with getting the NASA era non average Ra data "out there"

Image


On the pistons, Rocklord put me onto one combination. You'll find that the Chrysler 3.3 liter V6 piston is a great 1.26" deck option in the near 3.68" size.

Since most 200 blocks are gonna need over boring, I personally recon the best option is a full six hole Melling sleeve kit. If you track down some stock DOHC 2002-2016 Australian Ford Falcon CP XR6 Turbo 3.642" pistons, or the non forged versions from the lower tier 254 to 321 hp versions, you'll not need forged pistons.The two links below describe plateau honing, something Ford and GM learned about in 1996 when the Zolner piston slapping issues happened when modern ring packs were used. The Aussie made piston is supplied by other companies know, but they have a 1.169" compression height, were designed for a 9.22" block deck, with a 6.006" rod length an a 250 cranks 3.91" stroke.

Using the USA Nasa era laser profilometer details on setting up protective, non flutter boundary layer safety and hatch angle, Ford Australia opted to keep the US Windsor 5.0 liter engine alive for a few extra years via a spacial plateau hone of a stock Mountainer/Explorer 5.0 1996-2001 era block, and use it to make a non forged piston, 335 hp 5.6 liter 342 cube stroker. They optimized the bore texture, and downgraded the pistons to a Mahle non forged 4.00", and 1.169" deck piston.

Same applies to the 2002-2016 DOHC Falcons, they kept with non forged 1.169" deck pistons via ACL/Mahle on the non turbo, and they work fine.

The later turbo versions got an extra shot of boost, and made 362 to 422 hp, up from the 5 psi engines 321 hp in the first few years. When extra bost was added, Ford had a downgraded to a very strong, smaller diameter wrist pin, and they used forged pistons via CP.

So forged pistons (albeit, 38 thou undersize from the stock 3.68) for OHC Ford Falcon sixes are around, and they a very, very tough.

Going back
You can offset stroke to 3.316" inches with a 1.936" wrist pin on a 200 crank. Conrod to cam room is limited, but it can be relieved if the cam is kept heads up with no advance or retard. Like the old L6 Holden 179/186 strokers which Bob Mann built with Ford's Australian 3.1, 3.6 or 4.1 (188, 221 or cut down 250 cranks), its con-rod to cam clearance is close, but its doable.

If you used the bomb proof 4.08" bore center crank found on any 1981-1985 Holden 3.3 liter engine, it has a cast nodular iron 12 counter weight crankshaft that can be offset turned by down-hand welding to upsize its 1.899" crank pin to the nominal Toyota size. The stock Holden crank can regularly take 7500 rpm, even in long 99 to 161 lap races. It's GM's best ever cast iron six cylinder crankshaft.

Surface texture of the Melling sleeve is close to optimum for an engine reving to 7000 rpm. With the right rings and Sunen laser profilemeter specs, you can plateau hone a sleeve to suit a 60 or 90 thou overbored 200 engine, and get enough wall thickness to ensure the 200 engine will live practically for ever.


Or some GM 4200 DOHC sleeves and pistons.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 010-9733-y

https://www.sunnen.com/graphics/assets/ ... d2db44.pdf


Sleeves which aren't too big are a time honoured way of making sure an engine lasts


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Last edited by xctasy on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #33 by rocklord » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:23 pm

Sealed Power (866CP +1.00mm) makes a Chrysler 3.3L V6 piston cast aluminum piston with coated skirt that has a CH of 1.167", pin diameter 0.901", flat top, and a 3.701" bore. Piston is from a 2000-2002 with VIN code G, or R.
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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #34 by xctasy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:52 pm

rocklord wrote:Sealed Power (866CP +1.00mm) makes a Chrysler 3.3L V6 piston cast aluminum piston with coated skirt that has a CH of 1.167", pin diameter 0.901", flat top, and a 3.701" bore. Piston is from a 2000-2002 with VIN code G, or R.


Yes!

And some bushed or better than stock custom 5.09" V8 Windsor con-rods would be better, with the right offset ordered.


So its all a delicate balancing act...
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #35 by 64 200 ranchero » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:38 pm

How much can the stock forged rods handle anyway? I figure that my 200 Probobly makes somewhere around 300hp on spray and probably higher torque since I spray at 2800 rpm. I have already cracked pistons, but so far the rods are holding up. I'd like to get my engine up to 2 hp per cube on the spray, will the rods handle it?
Last edited by 64 200 ranchero on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.40 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Flowmaster, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:47 pm

The failure mode will be a bent rod.
I don't know if anyone can give you a failure point for nitrous.
You are correct that at 2800 rpm the additional torque is almost double the HP shot that is being sprayed.

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Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #37 by fast64ranchero » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:57 pm

Keep in mind when looking for shelf, "NON stock" pistons that a Ford 144/170/200 or 250 has 3 right side intake valves and 3 left side intake valves, so, valve reliefs could/will become an issue with larger lift cams. You can't just throw any old piston in that meets you Pin height, pin size and bore.
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #38 by chad » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:12 pm

Exhaust valves don't enter the CC as deeply as intake?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
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