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300 torque build 85 Bronco

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BigBlue94
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300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #1 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:47 pm

First real post, so here goes nothing!

I've got an 85 Bronco with a 300 in it. At this point, it's far from a stock configuration. Its has a Clifford intake with a 450 quickfuel 4bbl and 1.5" tube headers into a 2.5" y-pipe, into a 3 inch cat and borla muffler. The previous owner did all the modifications, so it's been a mystery the farther I dig. They retrofitted a points distributor with a pertronix ignitor and stabbed it in the engine. I still have the eec-iv box, but not much is connected. The bronco has a stock NP435 and 4.56 gears turning 37" mud terrain tires.

I pulled the head because I noticed coolant boiling out above the lifter cover. At this point I noticed vertical scars in most cylinders on the front and back of each bore. My machinist said it looks like it got hot (by a couple pics I showed him). I found a burn out tag on a freeze plug that had the center burnt away also signifying an overheat. It turned out to be a remanufactured E5TE engine and it's already .040 over. It had the stock cam as well.

Next I sourced a free "240" in a 74 econoline 100. VIN had an A in it, and the valve cover had a 240 emissions tag. Van has been parked since 86, and very lived in by many vermin. I pulled the head and my heart sank. It was a 300 head, C8TE casting with D chambers. I even CC'd them and they came out to 76cc. So now I have two 300 heads and a second mystery block with a blown piston in it. The "240" block is still buried in feces in the van, but accessible.

I have lined up a machinist, who mainly does race engines, Miller Precision Machine. He is a one man operation, and maintains a very very clean shop. I was impressed with him. He's also a drag racer on the weekends. He has done a 300 before and has over 20 years of experience. I'm hoping to drop my E5 block off to him tomorrow. He's on a 2 month backlog currently, so I have some time.

So here's my very tentative plans. If my block checks out, it'll be at 4.050 or more. At 4.050 I would use an FE piston, and 4.060 I'd use a 351w piston with bushed rods. If my block is trash, I'm thinking the OXX new block would be a good decision, as I'm not real thrilled about the block sitting in that old econoline, and what it's buried in. If I go this route, I'll use 351w pistons for a 4.000 bore. I'm wanting right around 10.1 compression, so a flat top with valve reliefs seems like the right choice, with some milled off the deck. I am not interested in milling the head down, past getting it flat.

The head will get a full port and polish, along with larger valves. Probably just like AbandonedBronco has. Intake will be the same water-heated single plane Clifford that I have and I want to reuse the new quick fuel 450 i have. Headers will be reused as well.

The place I'm really struggling with is the cam. I called Jerry at Schneider Cams, and gave him a brief explanation of what I have and want. I drive highway, and at 75 mph, I'm at about 3000 rpm. I also do some light trails and camping/fishing spots, and in KS, that includes clay, rocks, and mud. I do have a 16 ft Jon boat I may pull too, but it's light. Jerry suggested their 262-70h cam for 10.1 compression. Its got .464 and .472 lifts. I feel like I want more lift out of it, but the durations look nice. He said the scorpion 1.73 rockers would work great, but a fellow member brought up that that will basically change the whole timing of the cam, as it was designed with 1.6 rockers. At that point I could have them grind a custom cam and run the HS 1.6 roller rockers. I would like to see lifts at .500 or so. I am not a cam expert in any way, so what I want may not be what I need.

I would like some input from the pros at what to do. I'd really like to hit 300 hp, but low and medium end torque is the main goal. I'm not afraid to rev it up, and my cruise rpm is ~3000 with the 1:1 NP435. So, opinions, thoughts, criticisms?
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:59 pm

I agree with Jerry. The change in cam events using high lift rockers will be negligible. I'm not sure you need .500" lift but at 3000 rpm the valvetrain will likely last forever. I think an RV / towing style cam with hi-ratio rockers is a good practice and it worked well on a 240 I built like that.

Be sure to check for sufficient rocker arm-to-valve spring retainer clearance, rocker arm-to-stud boss/hex clearance, rocker slot-to-stud clearance, pushrod-to-head clearance, pushrod cup-to-pushrod tip clearance, oiling hole alignment, and for sufficient thread engagement of the adjusting nut. Of course do a piston-to-valve clearance check throughout the cam cycle too, and also check for rocker arm-to-valve cover clearance. Correct any clearance issues by machining.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #3 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:13 pm

Great, thank you for your input. If I've read correctly, the adv. duration would stay the same with the 1.73, but the duration at .050 would be slightly longer than with the 1.6 rockers?

Here's the cam specs for the 262-70 cam


Part Number: 13918
Grind Number: 262-70H
Intake Duration (gross): 262
Exhaust Duration (gross): 270
Intake Duration (.050”): 208
Exhaust Duration (.050”): 214
Intake Valve Lift*: .464"
Exhaust Valve Lift*: .472"
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Valve Lash: .000"
Exhaust Valve Lash: .000"
RPM Range: 1800-5200

I am considering having my machinist build the long block, as I've only put one 351 together and I had help. Not saying I can't do it, but I may be more comfortable with a pro doing it.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #4 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:05 pm

I hope these pics aren't too big. I couldn't find a size on them.

Here's one of the cylinders. They all look like this. There is no ridge at the top, just carbon build up. I measured cylinders 3 and 4 with quality (Starrett) telescoping gauges, and a micrometer. Measured every 45°, 1 inch from the top and 1 inch from the bottom of the cylinders and measured 4.040 every time. The scars feel a few thousandths deep.

Image

This is what I waded through in hopes of a 240 head. I did score some other stuff like a valve cover, single barrel carb, and factory air cleaner, so it wasn't a total wasted effort. One surprise was the cast iron downpipe from the exhaust manifold.

Image

I did notice in the head identification thread that early head castings had four extra holes that the later castings didn't. The head on my 85 engine does not have them (illegible casting code) but the C8TE head did. I was speaking with AbandonedBronco on FSB, and this was my theory. I thought they could be oil drainback holes, that returned oil to the lifters, and down into the pan. Then I concluded that the change could have came around when they went from pushrod slots to holes, therefore eliminating the need for seperate return passages. Any clout to this theory? Here's one of the holes, with a pen stuck in it.

Image

And one of the Bronco, just to show what the engine will be going back in.

Image
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #5 by Superbum » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Check out the specs on Lunati cams if you want more lift. I'd also keep the compression down to around 9.25:1 which will keep you in pump gas range unless you run a cam with a lot of cylinder pressure bleed off.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #6 by BigBlue94 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:50 am

Even with 91 octane, you think 10:1 will be a problem? I know it's fairly different but my EFI 351 at 10:1 didn't even mind 87 octane. It was topped with AFR165 heads though.

Thanks, I'll add that to my memory bank.

I've got the 300 in the bed of my f350 right now, waiting to go to the machine shop today.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:43 am

Everyone is giving you good information.
It has been the experience of many members here that the 300 six works with 87 octane gas with a Dynamic Compression Ratio around 7.0
A DCR near 7.5 requires 91 - 93 octane.

The Schneider cam that was recommended actually has 6 degrees less adv. duration than the stock cam and would be wise to limit the static compression ratio to 9:1
Your 10:1 EFI 351 is a lot more forgiving since it has aluminum heads, probably a larger cam and knock control.

You mentioned wanting near 300 HP.
That requires a fully ported, big valve head with cam intake durations around 230 degrees, 650 cfm carb and a header.
It would be a 10:1 compression engine with peak torque around 3500 rpm with peak power just after 5000 rpm.

You don't want a 240 head.
Even the 300 head with 76cc chambers, the pistons still need an 8cc dish to get 10:1 compression ratio at zero deck and a 20cc dish to get 9:1

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #8 by BigBlue94 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:14 pm

I'm taking it all in, so thanks! I'm new to six cylinders and need all the help I can get, so thats why I came here. That 351 had a comp xe258 cam, just for reference. It was chosen by comp for me. Was running speed density efi.

Talking to Jerry, he said that 262-70 cam would be great over 10:1, but any under and he recommended the straight 262 duration version. I was originally looking at more like these, with a real liking for the single pattern 275° with its huge rpm range.

Howard's cams
Stock #: CL280996-10
UPC #: 840793145317
Camshaft Type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Duration Exhaust: 275
Duration Intake: 275
Duration at 050 Exhaust: 221
Duration at 050 Intake: 221
Engine: 240-300
Firing Order: 1-5-3-6-2-4
Intake Centerline: 106
Lobe Separation: 110
Engine Manufacturer: Ford
RPM Range: 2000 to 5800
Valve Lift Exhaust: .501
-------------------
Schneider
Part Number: 13920
Grind Number: 270-80H
Intake Duration (gross): 270
Exhaust Duration (gross): 280
Intake Duration (.050”): 214
Exhaust Duration (.050”): 222
Intake Valve Lift*: .480"
Exhaust Valve Lift*: .480"
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Valve Lash: .000"
Exhaust Valve Lash: .000"
RPM Range:
2200-5600

I do have headers, into 2.5" with a scavenger y-collector as the y-pipe and then 3" from there. High flow cat and borla xr1 muffler.

Maybe 250 hp would be a more obtainable goal? And i definitely dont want over 10:1, so maybe 9.5 ish? At 10:1, with the 275 cam above, my DCR would be 7.85:1, and 7.47:1 at 9.5:1. With the 262 cam, DCR would be high at 8.24. I have no problem running 91 (there's no 93 here).

I too found that I didn't need the 240 head. And i found some flat top windsor pistons with i think 6.5cc valve reliefs and that put me a smidge over 10:1 at maybe .005 deck if I remember correctly.

Really, I just want a strong engine, with ample power for playing around off-road and with some diesels or mustangs. I'm not expecting to win any races, but it would be fun to at least be competitive, and see their faces.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:38 pm

The camshaft rpm ranges shown for the 240/300 are more accurate for the 240 and way over rated for the 300.

A cam profile around the 220 degree range and .500" lift does provide a wide power band with a ported head.

Along the same lines as the Howard cam is the Crower 19205. It will allow a 9.75 compression ratio.
https://www.crower.com/camshafts/ford-2 ... 4-hdp.html

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #10 by BigBlue94 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:06 pm

So the given rpm range would drop? So like a 2000 to 5800rpm range would drop to say 1600 to 5400rpm in a 300? Is that due to the longer stroke?

Would you recommend that crower cam over the howard? It looks a bit more radical than the Howard cam. Is that the type/size of cam you would recommend for my purposed build? I'd like to support Schneider because they have such a wide offering for the BB6, but it's not a deal breaker. I'll use whatever will work best.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #11 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:58 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:So the given rpm range would drop? So like a 2000 to 5800rpm range would drop to say 1600 to 5400rpm in a 300? Is that due to the longer stroke?


My anecdotal input is my 240 with a roller cam peaked at 7800 rpm and a similarly built 300 with the same cam peaked at 6800.
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #12 by Wesman07 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:08 pm

Wow. I didn’t think it would be that different. Good info.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #13 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:So the given rpm range would drop? So like a 2000 to 5800rpm range would drop to say 1600 to 5400rpm in a 300? Is that due to the longer stroke?

No. It is due to the displacement difference.
The 300 displaces 25% more volume per revolution than the 240 so the same head and cam combination will hit its flow limits sooner with the 300 than with the 240.
The 300 will make about the same peak HP as the 240 but at a much lower rpm however the 300 will produce a lot higher torque curve than the 240 that extends much lower in rpm.
BigBlue94 wrote:Would you recommend that crower cam over the howard? It looks a bit more radical than the Howard cam. Is that the type/size of cam you would recommend for my purposed build? I'd like to support Schneider because they have such a wide offering for the BB6, but it's not a deal breaker. I'll use whatever will work best.

The 300 six is a large engine with a cylinder size the same as a 400 V8 so small changes in cam profiles are hardly noticable.
You would not be able to tell the differnce in driving between the Howards cam and the Crower cam. The cam specs are actually close to identical except for the advertised duration which is the reason for choosing the Crower.
The Crower's longer adv duration decreases the DCR which allows you to use a higher static compression ratio.
The cams performance once starting into the power band is based on the .050" duration.

The three cams in this catagory are the:
Howard 280996-10 .501”/.501” 221/221 275/275 110deg
Schnieder 140H (13912) .496”/.496” 220/220 280/280 110deg
Crower 284HDP (19205) .509”/.517” 220/222 284/290 110deg

There would be very little difference in driving experience with each of these cams in the same engine.
The difference is that the Howard cam has a lower static compression limit than the Scheider and both have a lower limit than the Crower due to their advertised intake durations, 275, 280 and 284 respectively.

Depending on where you install the intake lobe center when you degree the cam, the Crower will let you get closest to a 10:1 compression ratio.

If you do a ported big valve head these cam will deliver a very strong power band and still have plenty of low end torque.
Even a fully ported 300 head is still undersized for a 50 cid cylinder and is the reason the 300 six can maintain low end torque with street performance modifications.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #14 by BigBlue94 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:01 am

Wow thanks FTF, that is quite the difference!

Pmuller, thank you, that all is starting to make more sense. Seems I've got some math to do now to find a combination of parts that will fit my goals. You guys really are geniouses!

Ten years ago I would NEVER have bought a six cylinder, but my how things have changed. I love this thing and the torque it can make.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #15 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:56 am

Looking at lifters, I can have them drilled for extra face oiling. This sounds like a good idea, but I'd like some input. I thought I'd read about it on here, but can't find that info now.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:32 am

A hydraulic lifter cannot be drilled for lifter face oiling because the hydraulic cylinder for the lifter plunger must keep the oil to maintain position.
Solid lifters can be purchased with an oiling hole because there is no hydraulic cylinder within.

There are hydraulic lifters that have a small flat on the side of the body that allow extra oil passed the lifter but as the lifter rotates it is hit and miss as far as oiling the cam lobe.
The Crower 66015X3-12 is the one for the Ford.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xeicvtj80chta ... .JPG?raw=1

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #17 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 pm

That makes sense. So I'm guessing the option Schneider has for their hydraulic lifters would be the same type of modification as the crowers. Is it a wise thing to do? Unnecessary?
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:13 pm

No one here has reported an aftermarket cam lobe going flat on a 300 six.
The Schneider "-HL option for extra face oiling" is the same as the Crower with the flat on the side of the lifter body.
According to Schneider it will cost 2-3 lbs of oil pressure but does help with lifter wear and longevity.
I don't really see a down side as long as there is sufficient oil pressure to start with.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #19 by BigBlue94 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Great, thanks. As long as I use their lifters, they will warranty the cam. With no one reporting any wiped lobes, I'll probably pass on that option.

I talked with JetHot yesterday, and I'm gonna send my headers down to them in Oklahoma and get their off-road coating put on. I don't want to put these rusty things back on without some attention, and my experience with VHT rattle cans isn't that great. The headers I used it on look like they have leprosy and it's all flakey. It'll be cheaper than getting a new set of Hedman elites, plus I just built an exhaust to fit these headers about 6 months ago.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #20 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:45 pm

I think the 300 lifters get plenty of oil. The long throws on the 300 crank whip lots of oil off of them and since the cam is located to the left of the crank that flailing oil passes right over the lifter region.

I once had a chance to look at high speed movies of the internal valley area of a running engine with a camera inside. What surprised me was the seemingly random pathways the oil spray was taking. Oil droplets floated around as if they were in zero gravity outer space. They criss-crossed the camera view every which way. Once the engine was off idle the slosh was impressive. Or alarming. Depending on what the task at hand was - PCV / oil consumption / windage losses, etc.
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:42 pm

FTF Thanks for sharing that info. It's good to know.
Would knife edging the counter weights be worth while for a 300 six crank that is used primarily for racing?

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #22 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:04 pm

pmuller9 wrote:FTF Thanks for sharing that info. It's good to know.
Would knife edging the counter weights be worth while for a 300 six crank that is used primarily for racing?


Absolutely

Its part of my race crank prep.
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #23 by BigBlue94 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:14 am

Thanks guys.

I ordered the Schneider 140H cam, their standard style lifters, and their break-in lube, as well as a zddp additive for after the rings seat.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:19 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:I ordered the Schneider 140H cam, their standard style lifters, and their break-in lube, as well as a zddp additive for after the rings seat.

Nice :thumbup:
Use a good break-in oil like Driven (Joe Gibbs) BR30.

Any progress on which block to use?
Have you started working on the head?

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #25 by BigBlue94 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:48 pm

No progress from the machine shop. I took it in on the 9th, and he said about 3 weeks before he could even look at it. He is also gonna do the head work.

I don't care much for Joe Gibbs, since he let Kenseth go instead of that Busch clown, but I'll try his oil haha.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #26 by BigBlue94 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:32 pm

Still no engine news, but Jet Hot received my rusty crusty headers of unknown origin (possibly clifford) today through fedex. I'm getting the 2000° off-road coating in cast iron color on the outside.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #27 by BigBlue94 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:46 am

Still no news on the engine. I need to make a phone call and see what's up.

Got my headers back a while ago. Here's where they started.

Image

And after the JetHot cast iron color coating.

Image

Image

I also did a bit of work on my Clifford intake. Previously it had this huge 7-nipple vacuum tree on it, with only one line going to it. So I swapped it for a single 90° brass fitting. I then needed a port for testing with a vacuum gauge, so I drilled and tapped a second hole for that.

Mounted to the drill press table
Image

Using a #4 center drill
Image

After drilling to size, I chucked up my npt tap, and used the spindle to keep the tap straight. I did not tap under power.

Image

Image

Then I set about painting it.
All masked off

Image

Primed with VHT flameproof gray

Image

Painted with duplicolor engine enamel, in New Ford Gray. Valve cover and side cover will also be this gray color.

Image
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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bubba22349
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #28 by bubba22349 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:12 pm

:beer: Those are a good looking set of Headers and Intake! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #29 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:51 pm

I have the same intake. I was going to weld up a 90* hose bib for the coolant, but like the ones you have. Where did you find them?

I assume those are Clifford headers. They are nice, however, they will seal in your starter. I switched to a much smaller efi starter to avoid that problem. Also, after using a set of hedman headers for many years, I got tired of the rattles and lack of room. I decided on a set of Clifford shorties, into a single 3" tube for a bit, and then reduce it at the rear with a 2.5" tailpipe.

The heat from the header, even with a shield, prevented using several types of carbs. If you use the header you might want to consider a cool air intake for mpg sake. Good luck.

*P.S.: Are those 1 5/8" tubes on the headers? They look 1.5", but it could of course be the photo.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #30 by BigBlue94 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:22 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:I have the same intake. I was going to weld up a 90* hose bib for the coolant, but like the ones you have. Where did you find them?

I assume those are Clifford headers. They are nice, however, they will seal in your starter. I switched to a much smaller efi starter to avoid that problem. Also, after using a set of hedman headers for many years, I got tired of the rattles and lack of room. I decided on a set of Clifford shorties, into a single 3" tube for a bit, and then reduce it at the rear with a 2.5" tailpipe.

The heat from the header, even with a shield, prevented using several types of carbs. If you use the header you might want to consider a cool air intake for mpg sake. Good luck.

*P.S.: Are those 1 5/8" tubes on the headers? They look 1.5", but it could of course be the photo.


Headers are indeed 1.625 tubes. I just built exhaust for them, so they are staying. I have a quickfuel 450 slayer, virtually nib. It's been a few months since I tore it down, so I can't remember how the starter access was.

I'm a little confused as to what you're really asking about the water jacket fittings. They came on the engine when I bought the bronco and I assumed they came with the intake. What are you trying to weld?!? I'll get some closeups of the fittings tonight, as they are rather different from what I've seen. I'm actually kinda ticked off that I didn't pony up for the Jet hot on the manifold. :bang:
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #31 by BigBlue94 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:59 pm

Also, by cool air intake, do you mean like a standard snorkel type air cleaner?

Currently it's got a Stef's 14" high flow "bubble" lid and base, with a 4" tall R2C dirt track reusable paper filter, and a 1.5" spacer under the cleaner for clearance.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #32 by BigBlue94 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:06 am

Here's the elbows used for the intake water jacket.

Image
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #33 by BigBlue94 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:48 pm

Got a bit of news today. My head was magged and passed with flying colors. Block is gonna get gauged today to see how much he needs to bore it, or if I need a new block since its already .040 over.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #34 by BigBlue94 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:48 am

Got a voicemail while out in the Rockies, my block cleaned up fully at 4.058, then honed to 4.060.

Cam is a schneider 140h, with an intake closing at 70° abdc.

I'm considering this piston:
https://www.uempistons.com/index.php?main_page=product_piston_info&cPath=3_4_24&products_id=3266


Specifications
Bore: 4.000 Rod Length: 5.956
Pin Diameter: 0.9122
Stroke: 3.500 Comp. Ht: 1.774
Top Land: 0.259
Minimum Clearance
Click Here To View
SPECIAL CLEARANCE REQUIREMENTS
OE Deck Height: 9.500
Weight Piston/Pin: 557/143
Head Type Step Dish
Effective Head Volume 15cc
Ext. Valve Depth 0.000 Ext. Valve Dia. 0.000
Int. Relief Depth 0.000 Int. Relief Dia.

With the block shaved to .005 above TDC, and 72cc chambers, it'll give me an sCR of 9.733 and a dCR of 7.493. With 78cc chambers it'll be a lil less aggressive at 9.223 and 7.114. I like the step design for quench purposes.

I was chatting with AbandonedBronco about the wrist pin locations. Factory is offset, and he used offset 351 pistons. The ones I'm considering are centered pin. Any disadvantage to that on my 4.060 block?
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #35 by pmuller9 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:52 pm

Your 1985 rods have a .975" pin hole.
Those pistons have a .912" pin.

Are you planning to bush the rods?

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #36 by BigBlue94 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:38 pm

Yes that's the plan. Old 300 rods weren't common here last time I checked around. The ones I found on eBay at the time were not complete sets and or very expensive. Is there a problem with bushing the rods, or were you just pointing it out?

I have a couple others that have just flat tops with valve reliefs that are a few cc's less 'dished'. They are still a 912 pin. I'd rather keep the lighter 351 pistons than FE pistons at .010 over.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #37 by pmuller9 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:12 pm

No problem with bushed rods since the KB 379 pistons will work with both press fit or floating piston pins.

To answer about off set piston pins:
If a set of V8 pistons have off set pins, only 4 of the 8 pistons can be installed in a straight six with the correct orientation. The other 4 (of which you only need 2) will be backwards.

The KB 379 with the centered pin allows any six of a set of 8 pistons to work in the straight six.
Most of the time it is cheaper to buy a set of 8 pistons than to buy six separate pistons.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #38 by BigBlue94 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:47 am

Alright, so I ordered most of my stuff last night.

Set of 8 pistons, linked above. $400
Rings, $60 KB moly top ring
Harland Sharp 1.6 roller rockers $300
Fel-pro gaskets, including the 1024 head gasket and permadry VC and oil pan gaskets. $125
DUI HEI distributor in black $370
DUI Livewires in black $90
Melling standard oil pump and drive shaft $50
ARP head studs, connecting rod bolts, and main cap studs. $200
New harmonic balancer $70

Totaled up to about $1600

Should be here by Friday, with the exception of the pistons, which are drop shipped. I have yet to order the remflex gasket for the manifold and headers.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #39 by BigBlue94 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:30 pm

These beauties just came today...

KB379-060

351w, .060 over. 15cc dish and a small step hopefully to aid in quench. Decking the block to .005 ATDC will push the step up into the gasket (.039 compressed) and chamber .047", meaning .008" into the actual chamber. The step itself is .052" proud of the top piston surface. The dish is .063" deep, from that same surface. The step face is .115" above the dish bottom. Measurements taken with a depth mic.

Image

Image
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #40 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:38 pm

What is the purpose of the large relief below the top ring land? That would give emissions engineers apoplexy.
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #41 by BigBlue94 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:02 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What is the purpose of the large relief below the top ring land? That would give emissions engineers apoplexy.


Your guess is better than mine. I haven't dealt with enough pistons to know that that's abnormal. I simply found a piston that had the proper cc's, compression height, price,etc and went with it. I read up on quench (here and some by david vizard) and the step seemed like a useful design feature.

What are the downsides to having that gap between rings?
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #42 by Fordman75 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:34 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What is the purpose of the large relief below the top ring land? That would give emissions engineers apoplexy.


Weight reduction?
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #43 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:06 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:What are the downsides to having that gap between rings?


A couple

First, as I implied, the unburned gasses are driven by pressure into that space and as cylinder pressure is reduced (exhaust valve opening) those gasses escape out the exhaust pipe in the form of unburned and partially burned hydrocarbons. Even with a conventional ring land design this can account for up to 25% of the hydroarbons produced in an engine.

Second, the residual pressure can unseat the ring and cause ring flutter, i.e. when the ring detaches from the bottom or top of the ring groove and allows lots of blow by.

Additionally that can lead to ring land failure.

I'm just guessing here, that that piston may be for some kind of boosted application - blower or turbo - as some sort of counterbalance to extremely high cylinder pressures. And yet, the land thickness is awfully small to hold up to much boost.

I dunno.
Anybody?
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #44 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:10 pm

Well maybe Ted. It sure wouldn't be the first place I'd look to reduce weight. Under the dome; around the pin bosses, tapered pins...
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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #45 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:39 pm

FTF has it right.
It is called an Accumulator Groove and it is used to minimize ring flutter.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #46 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:06 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:351w, .060 over. 15cc dish and a small step hopefully to aid in quench. Decking the block to .005 ATDC will push the step up into the gasket (.039 compressed) and chamber .047", meaning .008" into the actual chamber. The step itself is .052" proud of the top piston surface. The dish is .063" deep, from that same surface. The step face is .115" above the dish bottom. Measurements taken with a depth mic.

The piston step mates with the flat area of the head surface to create quench or squish.
The piston does not get turned around 180 degrees so the step can go up into the combustion chamber.
You would end up with close to an 11:1 compression ratio with the step .008" into the chamber.

Please measure from the inside of the piston pin bore to the top of the piston just above the pin bore using a caliper.
It should be around 1.266"
Thanks

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #47 by BigBlue94 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:00 am

pmuller9 wrote:
BigBlue94 wrote:351w, .060 over. 15cc dish and a small step hopefully to aid in quench. Decking the block to .005 ATDC will push the step up into the gasket (.039 compressed) and chamber .047", meaning .008" into the actual chamber. The step itself is .052" proud of the top piston surface. The dish is .063" deep, from that same surface. The step face is .115" above the dish bottom. Measurements taken with a depth mic.

The piston step mates with the flat area of the head surface to create quench or squish.
The piston does not get turned around 180 degrees so the step can go up into the combustion chamber.
You would end up with close to an 11:1 compression ratio with the step .008" into the chamber.

Please measure from the inside of the piston pin bore to the top of the piston just above the pin bore using a caliper.
It should be around 1.266"
Thanks


Yeah I realized once I "mathed" all that out that that side of the chamber was flat. I may have to chuck them up in the lathe and remove that step. I'll get the measurements this evening.

Leaving the step, I'd have to leave the piston at least .015 in the hole to not make contact with the head. Hmmmmm
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #48 by BigBlue94 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:18 am

The piston is for pre-72 blocks with the shorter deck. It's designed for the sportsman N351 head developed in conjunction with Yates.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #49 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:31 am

No no
The top of the step is the top of the piston.
Make the top of the step at zero deck height.
The piston volume of 15 cc is measured down from the top of the step

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Re: 300 torque build 85 Bronco

Post #50 by BigBlue94 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:39 am

Leaving a perfect quench step of .040.

So the effective volume given of 15cc's is not just the dish, but everything from the step face and down? Then putting the step at .005 would give me my numbers I figured earlier
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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