Tri Power Again

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161henry
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Tri Power Again

Post #1 by 161henry » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:24 pm

Image

any thoughts

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #2 by Soldmy66 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:08 pm

I get nothing ...

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:35 pm

The round plenum is a very nice way to compensate for the angle of the runner inlets.
Smart Thinking!

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #4 by 161henry » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:59 pm

[quote="pmuller9"]The round plenum is a very nice way to compensate for the angle of the runner inlets.
Smart Thinking![/quote

thanks its 4 inch exhaust pipe. im about to order two rebuilt autolite 2100 for a1964 289. unless you think some other 2v would be better

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:02 pm

Two 2100s for a 289 will be fine.
What size are the venturi?

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #6 by 161henry » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:19 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Two 2100s for a 289 will be fine.
What size are the venturi?


https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... retor,5904

I can't imagine more than 1.14 but I'll call to make sure. what size are you thinking?

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:41 pm

1.14" is what I was thinking.
That would be 300 cfm each or 600 cfm total.
It would be equivalent to a 425 cfm 4 barrel carb.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:47 pm

I think a '64 289 would have had smaller than 1.14.
If you want that much maybe try a FE 352 or FT 360.
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #9 by 161henry » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:54 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think a '64 289 would have had smaller than 1.14.
If you want that much maybe try a FE 352 or FT 360.

I been looking around I "THINK" THE 351 Windsor had 1.21 . 302 1.14 and the 289 1.08
Does that sound right?

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #10 by 161henry » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:15 pm


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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #11 by 161henry » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:42 am

rockauto has a pair of 2100 carbs for a 69 f100 302 manual choke. I'll call today to see what size they are. I wouldn't care if they were smaller than 1.14. Do you guys think I need to run some kind of heat to this manifold? If it were still round it would be over 300 cubic inch volume.
thanks

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #12 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:09 pm

161henry wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think a '64 289 would have had smaller than 1.14.
If you want that much maybe try a FE 352 or FT 360.

I been looking around I "THINK" THE 351 Windsor had 1.21 . 302 1.14 and the 289 1.08
Does that sound right?

I wasn't working at Ford in the '60s but all 302s I saw had 1.08s. 351M and 400s used 1.21s
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #13 by Daubee 1978 » Tue May 01, 2018 1:03 pm

Wont all that volume make for slow throttle response? Been thinking of doing this myself but was going to try to keep plenum as small as I could, and split it between 123 and 456.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #14 by 161henry » Tue May 01, 2018 2:03 pm

Daubee 1978 wrote:Wont all that volume make for slow throttle response? Been thinking of doing this myself but was going to try to keep plenum as small as I could, and split it between 123 and 456.


I'll let the smart people answer....

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Tue May 01, 2018 10:52 pm

The time it takes for a 300 cu inch plenum to go from 1/2 an atmosphere at part throttle to a depression of 1 1/2 inches at WOT across four 1.14" venturi is negligible compared to the rev rate of a 300 six.

What does happen as you decrease plenum volume is you need a larger carburetor to supply peak flow during the intake stroke of each cylinder because the "Gulp" volume in the plenum has been decreased.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #16 by 161henry » Wed May 02, 2018 12:56 pm

More questions. I'm looking for the classic ratrod look. If my calculations are correct these would yield about 360 cfm. If you weren't super worried about power. Just want reliability and cool factor. But mostly reliability. Would you run 3 Carter YF or 2 autolite 2100 1.08.
Thanks
https://m.ebay.com/itm/1968-70-Ford-Pas ... 2041869617

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #17 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed May 02, 2018 8:13 pm

(3) YFs
But I wouldn't pay $94 each for them.
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #18 by 161henry » Wed May 02, 2018 10:03 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:(3) YFs
But I wouldn't pay $94 each for them.


I can rebuild them but by the time I find cores and a kit it's about the same. Unless there's a better place to look? Im all for cheaper..

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #19 by old28racer » Thu May 03, 2018 12:08 am

Were did you find 2100 1.08 or 1.14 for $94 each? :bang:
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #20 by 161henry » Thu May 03, 2018 8:47 am

old28racer wrote:Were did you find 2100 1.08 or 1.14 for $94 each? :bang:


I didn't, that was for carter YF

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #21 by 161henry » Thu May 03, 2018 8:56 am

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyzreafbl3mb3 ... 6.jpg?dl=0

I'm sure everybody has seen enough piks of half built intakes. I'm just checking to see if my new Dropbox account works.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #22 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu May 03, 2018 10:28 am

worked for me
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Thu May 03, 2018 12:06 pm

161henry wrote:https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyzreafbl3mb375/20180502_195546.jpg?dl=0

I'm just checking to see if my new Dropbox account works.

If you want to post the dropbox picture directly into your post, change the dl=0 at the end of the dropbox picture link to raw=1
Your link above will look like this
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyzreafbl3mb3 ... .jpg?raw=1
Then put the link between the [image][/image] from the tool bar above.

Example using your dropbox picture link

Image

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #24 by old28racer » Thu May 03, 2018 10:25 pm

Ya others may look at a half done intake and say seen that before, others like to check out different ways to get to the same endpoint. 8)

Keep the pictures coming on your EFI tube intake !!!!!!!!! Good start. :beer:
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #25 by 161henry » Thu May 03, 2018 11:19 pm

old28racer wrote:Ya others may look at a half done intake and say seen that before, others like to check out different ways to get to the same endpoint. 8)

Keep the pictures coming on your EFI tube intake !!!!!!!!! Good start. :beer:


I'll do it. I did a little grinding tonight
matching up the holes. there a a near by ratrod show tomorrow I should go to. Torque Fest in Dubuque. but I think I'll finish my master piece. But I might find so yf carbs if I go

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #26 by old28racer » Fri May 04, 2018 10:46 pm

Never miss a good Hot Rod Show. :D

Lots of good idea's for a project. :mrgreen:
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #27 by 161henry » Sun May 06, 2018 1:05 pm

During my YouTube search I stumbled onto this. I'm not making fun of this kid everybody learns by thier mistakes. and when I was a kid I had to make some real junk run. but check out this 4v intake. and I have to ask, would it work?

https://youtu.be/-DFMP5wa23A

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun May 06, 2018 6:41 pm

I've seen that done before. Somebody posted a pic of a similar set up on a 23T roadster. It looked like a clean car. I think it was Oz.
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #29 by 161henry » Mon May 07, 2018 9:35 pm

I'm getting ready to start welding things together. I have 2 inch exhaust pipe for the Carter YF carbs to sit on. the 2 inch pipe is 3 inches long. is there an advantage of having the carb stand high away from the manifold. Or should it be close to the plenum. the higher they are the more leverage they will have to flex and later crack the steel. but again rat rods are suppose to have lots of rebar bracing. which would run better?
Thanks.

P.S. I ran into a guy at a funeral Saturday who had a running 1978 300 6 with an Offehauser intake and carb. I don't know if it's a DP or a C. Or what Carb it has but I thought it was worth $200.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #30 by drag-200stang » Tue May 08, 2018 9:36 am

I would do what looks best and the easiest to put together...I thought that the carb. bore was 1-11/16'' on those ?
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #31 by Fordman75 » Wed May 09, 2018 5:13 pm

161henry wrote:During my YouTube search I stumbled onto this. I'm not making fun of this kid everybody learns by thier mistakes. and when I was a kid I had to make some real junk run. but check out this 4v intake. and I have to ask, would it work?

https://youtu.be/-DFMP5wa23A


I'd be more worried about him ditching the DSII distributor for a TFI setup. He didn't want to deal with the vacuum line for the vacuum advance. The problem is the TFI set up doesn't have any mechanical advance in it. So I don't know how well it will perform without running a computer with it. He was trying to simplify things but just made things more complicated.

The intake set up will work. I think this is the the pic FTF was referring to.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #32 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu May 10, 2018 12:31 pm

Yup, that is the pic. I think a TFI with fixed spark advance would become very bothersome after a short time.
Hard starts
Over advanced low rpm spark creating detonation
Loss of fuel economy
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #33 by xctasy » Thu May 10, 2018 2:57 pm

Have fun with what you doing! 161henry. Very coool! Once you've decided what your actually gonna do, then PM me.



I like YFA Carters



Image

The 1.08 carbs are IMHO too small, the ideal carb size by formula size is the FE Ford Big Block 390 cube Autolite 2100 series 1.33 Autolite carb which was rated at 423 cfm each.That got downgraded to a 1.21/1.23 for the 351 Cleveland and 351M/400 trucks, then turned into a Motorcraft 2150 series carb sometime in the late 70's.

A 4.9 in line six reving to 3600 rpm would be real happywith a stock 264-268 duration cam and some extra valve lift. Using something smallr will cause major other issues. Running a common plenumb won't help calibration of the carbs, but you can make anything work with what you got. Just not really well.

Tri power systems that are rod operated mixture type 3 x 1-bbls are dead easy to calibrate the old way, but Triple 2-bbls have power valves, way to big Power Valve Channel restrictions, well tubes and annular discharge venturis which then over come the Idle Air Bleed and Ford F stamped jets, and there is a lack of data on that, although I've supplied it many times. The tuning of a triple carb set ups requires a very good igntion sytstem with the right advance curve, and there are many roads to Rome to nail that. You could have five different systems that give the same end result, and the vacuum could be ported, manifold, or no vacuum advance at all. Your idlea final carb tuning could vary hugely just based on what igntion system you use. I've worked on Ferrari 8-bbl systems for the Dino V8, and its set up totlally differntly to what all the experts suggest. Car makers have access to a whole lot of tricks, and a tri power cobbled to gether with three factory 2-bbl Motorcraft carbs can be made to run okay.


I'd persoanly use what you've got, and experiement with inernal spacers to make it an independent runner intake.



As fot the other stuff, well....


Okay, this is not a 6-BBL Tri Power with three 2-bbl carbs. TFi verses Duraspark, totally different. 4-bbl 4100 vs 2100 2-bbl or YFA Carter, totally different.


Totally different head...


Image


And no one understand how really good the 4100 4-bbl carb was. Ford had a raft of blank alley developments because the future was EFI, and it never spent a dime on 4-bbl carbs after 1972. All the performance 4-bbls from 1978 to 1988 were bought in Holley 4180 carbs, with a whole 'nuther non EEC vacuum system which was unique and speacial to either heavy trucks, light trucks or light passenger vehicles.

Ford spent a bunch of money on the 2100 and 2150 derivatives of the ancient Autolite annular discharge carb, and even the Chinese are making knock off Feedback carbs now. The last Motorcraft 2150 was a 1.08 feedback carb which could work okay if you knew how to sync up the Mixture Control Solenoid. It was based on duty cylce, and to say it was a little complicated is an undestatement, but the info is out there.


The last Ford carb ever was bowl vented 2150 2-bbl with a solenoid for the evaporative emissions, and another for the checmially correct closed loop 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. And its got its own jets, and the Chinese knock offs copy it closely. The bowl vent, MCS, the two stage power valve, the different K cluster, well tubes, the many different venturi sizes were all taken back to one 1.08 size 2-bbl that was used on the last 2.8 Colgne V6 and some 5.0 V8's.



The so called "kid" , He's had DSII, TFi, a 4100 and a Edlebrock 140X series carb on his, and it runs because the kid is just so fat dangel smart. If there was a nuclear winter tomorrow, civilization would survive with his help. :thumbup: "mechanical king"



Duraspark III, TFI and EDIS6 are in my opinion the best ignition systems ever.

Duraspark II was very much VECI dependent, with a whole bunch of other devices specfic to the Carb and engine application.

The Vehicle Emission Control Information (VECI) label is located on the underside of the hood on most Ford models. This label is extremely important when performing maintenance, emissions inspection or ordering engine and engine management related parts. Change one part, everything else changes. So conversations are like listening to Machanical Kings videos....you are learning potentially 100 vacum systems.


With TFi ingtion, or Ford EFi or six barrel port on port systems, you have to go back to basics.


On Thick Film Ignition, don't ever discount it! Ford decided that it needed cheaper parts supply, with more accuracy. In so doing, it required any one of four different ECM control systems, with very specific Prgrammed Logic Control//Systems Control. As different to each other as a motorcylce is to a uni cycle. The Systems are MCU, EEC IV, EECV or aftermarket Mega Jolt systems which can be tied into MegaSquirt ECM systems.



The guys who dremt the TFi up were ex NASA/ Motorolla / Patriot missle program corporate guys, very smart. Rocket scientists, basically. So there is a whole system of smarts that no one has cracked except the Megasquirt. Moates and EECIV Org guys...and they have every answer to every potential question




Lots of people talk up the Duraspark I and II, but they don't produce the spark a good DSIII or TFi or EDIS 6 can with the spark plugs Ford decided to use. But its like anything. If you know how they work on an engine scope, you can make anything work great.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #34 by 161henry » Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Thanks for the replies lots of good information. I spent two days trying to understand Dropbox and failed. Here is my 4 inch exhaust pipe Tri-Power. I spent a lot of time port matching the lower to my upper. I had everything bolted together while welding so things didn't warp. I'd weld short sections and move to the other side.
https://youtu.be/LqvdJ4pUKvo

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #35 by 161henry » Sun May 13, 2018 8:11 pm

come on folks I know it's rough, but I didn't think it was ugly enough too make ya stop talking to me.... :)

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Sun May 13, 2018 8:41 pm

We like it.
Just waiting for you to weld the carb flanges on to the pipes :D

Then we want to know what you are going to do for brackets for the carb linkage and the linkage itself?

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #37 by 161henry » Sun May 13, 2018 11:38 pm

I'll share a couple things I learned so for. Plug all the holes so welder splatter doesn't get inside. Kinda sucks getting that all knocked and ground off. All 3 of my stand pipes are straight up and down square. But I should have clamped a straight edge to them. The center pipe is about a 16th of an inch closer to the valve cover than the other 2. But since the pipe is 2 inch and the hole in the carb and flange are close to 1 3/4 I can cheat it over and fix that. I used 3 inch flat steel for the base. That puts 2 of my welds pretty close to the runners in the lower intake. Not a big deal but 3 1/2 inch would have saved some time.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #38 by 161henry » Mon May 14, 2018 8:04 pm


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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #39 by pmuller9 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:23 pm

Don't get me wrong, I like the videos but what was the problem you were having with trying to post pictures from Dropbox?

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #40 by Fordman75 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:20 pm

Any concerns about your carb mounting flanges being too thin and warping? It's hard to tell how thick they are just from the video. But if they warp you might be fighting vacuum leaks.

On mine for my 2V carb mounting flanges, I'm going with a 1/2" plate and those are sitting flat on top of a piece of 1/8" plate.
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #41 by 161henry » Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like the videos but what was the problem you were having with trying to post pictures from Dropbox?

I don't know I'm doing it on my phone maybe that's the trouble. my 23 year old daughter is home Maybe she can help.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #42 by 161henry » Mon May 14, 2018 11:08 pm

Fordman75 wrote:Any concerns about your carb mounting flanges being too thin and warping? It's hard to tell how thick they are just from the video. But if they warp you might be fighting vacuum leaks.

On mine for my 2V carb mounting flanges, I'm going with a 1/2" plate and those are sitting flat on top of a piece of 1/8" plate.


Well you may be right thanks for pointing it out. I have a plan....

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #43 by 161henry » Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am

Fordman75 wrote:Any concerns about your carb mounting flanges being too thin and warping? It's hard to tell how thick they are just from the video. But if they warp you might be fighting vacuum leaks.

On mine for my 2V carb mounting flanges, I'm going with a 1/2" plate and those are sitting flat on top of a piece of 1/8" plate.


The washers are 3/16 thick.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #44 by 161henry » Wed May 16, 2018 10:26 pm


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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #45 by pmuller9 » Wed May 16, 2018 10:30 pm

Glad to see you got Dropbox working.

.200" looks thick enough.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #46 by bubba22349 » Thu May 17, 2018 12:50 am

161henry wrote:come on folks I know it's rough, but I didn't think it was ugly enough too make ya stop talking to me.... :)


:beer: congrats the intake looks real good and will be a nice addition to your Rat Rod truck. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #47 by Dr Jay » Sat May 19, 2018 11:06 pm

I like it! That manifold creates a specific look that would complement a rat rod sporting that welded on look. Ideas that move to actual metal..... real art.
Blessings,
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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #48 by 161henry » Sat May 19, 2018 11:14 pm

if I can round up one more carter 4919s I can start working on linkage

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #49 by 161henry » Tue May 22, 2018 11:05 pm

you guys have any recommendations on an afr gauge? Is there any reason st spend a bunch of money?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00N3VGP ... ref=plSrch

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Re: Tri Power Again

Post #50 by 161henry » Wed May 30, 2018 9:50 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/82ds0bw21hz5g ... pg?dlraw=1

Should I let Edelbrock stay in business or just buy them out now??? :D It my never run again but it sure looks cool

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