Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

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pmuller9
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #201 by pmuller9 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:20 pm

The unshrouding picked up the mid-lift flow numbers as predicted.

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Sick6Turbo
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #202 by Sick6Turbo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:01 am

Very nice gains in the sweet street spot. Great job. :thumbup:
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

WorldChampGramp
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #203 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:25 pm

Sick6Turbo wrote:Very nice gains in the sweet street spot. Great job. :thumbup:


Motivation to press on comes in many forms, sincere words of encouragement are tops on my list. Thanks Slick6 for your continued support I will be contacting you soon to explore just when we can send something your way to field test. Bruce :idea:

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #204 by sandboxer » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:51 pm

Ditto on the great work. It's starting to look like an LS head:)
Sign me up.
Do you think you can go for bigger valves with boost in mind, or will those gains be negligible (your best guess)?

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #205 by guhfluh » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:05 pm

WOW is right. 20cfm is "YUGE"! :D
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

WorldChampGramp
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #206 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:52 pm

guhfluh wrote:WOW is right. 20cfm is "YUGE"! :D
sandboxer wrote:Ditto on the great work. It's starting to look like an LS head:)
Sign me up.
Do you think you can go for bigger valves with boost in mind, or will those gains be negligible (your best guess)?


This is a 2-fur answer. Recall this is our entry level head referred to extensively in this thread as S/S for Street/Strip intended as a solid performer BUT not the best we intend to produce in a u-flow design. The Max Flow will be largest valves and maximized port throats only limited by the confines of the EQ casting walls. I expect and we are striving for this ultimate final release to be in the 250+ range with strong low lift figures and leveling off in the .650-700 range. My optimism is also shared with our valued, trusted porting authority Buddy who has been cheering me on since day one. Since the two of you & Slick6 have not been skeptical like other members, specifically about my ability to “pull things off” and accomplish most anything, I invite you to visit the 428 Cobra Jet Registry and read about my exploits + the > 50 year old SECRET< recently discovered which I admitted to on the 50TH anniversary of this momentous drag racing mystery. Back then it was a significant achievement and a death blow to the dominate Mopars of that era. Here’s the link enjoy. Bruce

http://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index. ... #msg171406

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #207 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:01 pm

http://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index. ... #msg171406


Bruce, you dirty dog you lol! Awesome read.

Glad to see your still looking to give the little guy (with 6 instead of 8 cylinders) a boost.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

deere114
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #208 by deere114 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:24 pm

Those flow numbers look good, anxious to see the future heads flowed!

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #209 by WorldChampGramp » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:58 am

[size=150]This is a Major Announcement from our Team here in SWFL.

The completion and release for Dyno development of our entry level U-Flow head is now complete; Dynamometer ready and configured with a Final Chamber volume of

*** 66 CC’s***

Therefore, the remaining decision for all of our customers will be calculating their individual engine build dynamic compression ratio to include:

1) Piston “crown” volume dish (-) or Dome (+) , 2) finished bore size and 3) installed piston deck height. The only remaining cylinder volume variable could be a non-standard (3.98) stroke, effecting cylinder volume and CID.

I know all of you join me in thanking our dedicated, hardworking, behind the scenes TEAM, who have MADE THIS HAPPEN. Work has already begun on our kick butt MAX-Flow u-head that will out perform any 4.9L U-Flow known to man. I appologize to the PC police; it's difficult to make the foregoing sentence gender neutral. :rolflmao:

Greater things are coming stay tuned. Bruce
[/size]

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #210 by jason832 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:53 am

Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see then next u head and get my hands on one.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #211 by pmuller9 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:47 am

Final chamber volume in the S/S head.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #212 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:15 am

I'm sure it's here somewhere but at what depression are these heads being flowed at? I'm trying to crunch some numbers. And while all this progress is great, I'm having a hard time getting the static compression below 9-1 with that chamber volume. All good and great for n/a however for forced induction it may be a problem. Not to say some of that heart shape can't be altered to allow a larger chamber volume, what effect might that have on the flow characteristics? So far min piston dish is around 28cc with stock bore and 1024 gasket with 66cc chamber.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #213 by guhfluh » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:I'm sure it's here somewhere but at what depression are these heads being flowed at? I'm trying to crunch some numbers. And while all this progress is great, I'm having a hard time getting the static compression below 9-1 with that chamber volume. All good and great for n/a however for forced induction it may be a problem. Not to say some of that heart shape can't be altered to allow a larger chamber volume, what effect might that have on the flow characteristics? So far min piston dish is around 28cc with stock bore and 1024 gasket with 66cc chamber.
I would assume 28"hg as it is the industry standard. One thing that would be nice to know though, is a comparison of a stock (EFI and carb) head flow on the same bench.

I don't see what the problems are with the chamber volume? Are you not wanting to rebuild the bottom end? Trying to run a turbocharged stock bottom on 93 octane? If not, spec the piston at the compression height and CC you want. Speed-pro H554CP for example has a CH of 1.767" AND a dish volume somewhere around 40cc
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #214 by WorldChampGramp » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:03 pm

guhfluh wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:I'm sure it's here somewhere but at what depression are these heads being flowed at? I'm trying to crunch some numbers. And while all this progress is great, I'm having a hard time getting the static compression below 9-1 with that chamber volume. All good and great for n/a however for forced induction it may be a problem. Not to say some of that heart shape can't be altered to allow a larger chamber volume, what effect might that have on the flow characteristics? So far min piston dish is around 28cc with stock bore and 1024 gasket with 66cc chamber.
I would assume 28"hg as it is the industry standard. One thing that would be nice to know though, is a comparison of a stock (EFI and carb) head flow on the same bench.

I don't see what the problems are with the chamber volume? Are you not wanting to rebuild the bottom end? Trying to run a turbocharged stock bottom on 93 octane? If not, spec the piston at the compression height and CC you want. Speed-pro H554CP for example has a CH of 1.767" AND a dish volume somewhere around 40cc


guhfluh:
Glad you asked… our game plan for this week is a side-by-side, adjacent cylinder exercise, starting with an as cast EQ aftermarket EFI head by:
a) duplicating the first intake runner using the 1.84 FINALIZED Street/Strip intake port , b) port the adjacent sequential intake the same>> However, a)’s neighbor will receive a 1.94 intake in lieu of the 1.84 S/S finalized “sister”clone. Yes, we conduct all our flow sessions @ a 28” of water, in an A/C climate controlled environment ,monitored for temp/relative humidity 24/7. We attempt to minimize the variables b/c what you do today can bite you in the ass next month if you ignore Best Practices methodology.
Therefore, since we are going to start from scratch I will make sure we get an accurate baseline of what you can expect from an unported out of the box aftermarket Newbie.
Now that we have an in-house Master head, such as described above, we have the advantage (in Gramps opinion) of creating multiple port configurations on the same head. Obviously the best S/S and the best MAX flow on the same head will be a thing to behold. No don’t go there, this head will never see the pump But Masters should be painted a special color AGREE?? Suggestions and “Green Jacket, Masters® color schemes for those who want to “chip In” :idea: :party:

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #215 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:06 am

guhfluh wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:I'm sure it's here somewhere but at what depression are these heads being flowed at? I'm trying to crunch some numbers. And while all this progress is great, I'm having a hard time getting the static compression below 9-1 with that chamber volume. All good and great for n/a however for forced induction it may be a problem. Not to say some of that heart shape can't be altered to allow a larger chamber volume, what effect might that have on the flow characteristics? So far min piston dish is around 28cc with stock bore and 1024 gasket with 66cc chamber.
I would assume 28"hg as it is the industry standard. One thing that would be nice to know though, is a comparison of a stock (EFI and carb) head flow on the same bench.

I don't see what the problems are with the chamber volume? Are you not wanting to rebuild the bottom end? Trying to run a turbocharged stock bottom on 93 octane? If not, spec the piston at the compression height and CC you want. Speed-pro H554CP for example has a CH of 1.767" AND a dish volume somewhere around 40cc


Essentially yes. The first phase of the build is adding the turbo and tuning the ignition, fuel delivery, to a basically stock bottom end. Second phase is rebuilt bottom end, using 240 rods on the 300 crank. That's easy to manage with custom pistons. However before the cam and lower end work, running a stock cam with what will be around 9.5-1 compression with a tp38 Garrett turbo is going to be dangerous lol. I don't know how that's all going to pan out with the head change. Current compression is about 8.7-1 with the stock head and 1024 gasket and 22cc d dish pistons(I think), I had the head off for a gasket change this spring and the previous owner had 2 gaskets under the head, effective compression around 7.8-1. I always wondered y it was such a dog above 60mph lol

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #216 by pmuller9 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:22 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:Second phase is rebuilt bottom end, using 240 rods on the 300 crank. That's easy to manage with custom pistons.


Not for a low compression turbocharger combination.
The piston CH is only 1.2" leaving very little room above the rod small end for a deep dish.
The piston pin is up into the ring pack and doesn't leave very much room for a wide upper ring land.
Unless this is a race only engine, you really want a longer piston for bore stability and longevity under the pressure from boost.

The recommended combination is either of the "off the shelf" Molnar or Compstar 2.100" journal, 6.385" long "H" beam rod with a custom forged piston.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #217 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:22 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:Second phase is rebuilt bottom end, using 240 rods on the 300 crank. That's easy to manage with custom pistons.


Not for a low compression turbocharger combination.
The piston CH is only 1.2" leaving very little room above the rod small end for a deep dish.
The piston pin is up into the ring pack and doesn't leave very much room for a wide upper ring land.
Unless this is a race only engine, you really want a longer piston for bore stability and longevity under the pressure from boost.

The recommended combination is either of the "off the shelf" Molnar or Compstar 2.100" journal, 6.385" long "H" beam rod with a custom forged piston.


Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the information, I'll be sure to add that to be build list.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #218 by deere114 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:24 pm

For what it's worth, I wouldn't hesitate abit to add boost to a stock bottom end, stock cam engine. The previous owner of my turbo truck daily drove it for abit on 8psi, I slammed it with numerous 20psi pulls, the wastegate reference line popped off once and maxed out the map sensor, the worst damage it did was tear up the STOCK headgasket between cylinders, and I found the efi head to be cracked, which many do in oem form when over heated. This was all done on pump e85. My new engine is getting a ported carb head with oversized valves, 277 camshaft, and a tp38 turbo (previous was a hx35)

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #219 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:26 pm

I've already beefed up the top with arp studs and a 1024 felpro gasket, and I've heard many stories of the stock bottom end and holding up to years of 25psi 1/4 mile passes. However I imagine that's with a 8/8.5-1 static compression bottom end. This head would be closer to 9.5-1 with the stock bottom end. That was my original concern with the 66cc chamber. There's three other mouths to feed at home, and that leaves little in the way of budget for a custom lower end. At least not immediately...

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #220 by deere114 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:19 am

What fuel do you plan on running?

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #221 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 am

WOW Bending Moments require "Gramps" immediate attention.

Great stuff for turbo applications + lower end mods necessary to keep everything together, ALL depending upon many, many, variables. At this time & Stage in our Development Program effort I [and WE] do not want to address this very controversial “Umbrella” subject matter ***TUROCHARGING a 4.9L Ford Big Six***.

Our valued, trusted, well-versed expert on this subject is the one and only Paul aka PMuller9 as his Forum ID displays.
Paul can easily start a separate thread on this very subject and I Bruce Sizemore personally wish to assure you that our entire team is capable and willing to address this fascinating subject FULLY, to include our own Dyno Testing to verify when time permits.

Please accept the foregoing in the spirit of which it has been written. Then realize your Program Founder and Chief decision maker, has a Research side to me that gathers Input and gets me up-to-date after many years of abstinence (motorsports wise) not the other :beer: many of you enjoy

Now to the Research>>> Here is the best link directing you to what I would consider thought provoking physics based analysis of just what tension (stretching) and compression forces do to the rod during its typical 4-cycle modus operandi. ENJOY Bruce aka “gramps” http://emweb.unl.edu/Mechanics-Pages/Lu ... s%20VI.htm

Or if you have problems with the above link go to this Google page link then click on the VIEW tab same results :idea:
the Article U need hand. :nod: https://goo.gl/images/V24mYd

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #222 by CNC-Dude » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:52 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:I've already beefed up the top with arp studs and a 1024 felpro gasket, and I've heard many stories of the stock bottom end and holding up to years of 25psi 1/4 mile passes. However I imagine that's with a 8/8.5-1 static compression bottom end. This head would be closer to 9.5-1 with the stock bottom end. That was my original concern with the 66cc chamber. There's three other mouths to feed at home, and that leaves little in the way of budget for a custom lower end. At least not immediately...

More importantly, what is your DCR? I am doing several X275 Drag Radial LS engines for some guys and they have over 12:1 with 25 lbs of boost. It's all in the cam selection. This one car weighs 3100 lbs and runs 4.80's in the 1/8 mile.
As pmuller pointed out about your pistons, rod length also affects your DCR, so calculate that with the cam specs you are running and see what you get.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #223 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:41 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:I've already beefed up the top with arp studs and a 1024 felpro gasket, and I've heard many stories of the stock bottom end and holding up to years of 25psi 1/4 mile passes. However I imagine that's with a 8/8.5-1 static compression bottom end. This head would be closer to 9.5-1 with the stock bottom end. That was my original concern with the 66cc chamber. There's three other mouths to feed at home, and that leaves little in the way of budget for a custom lower end. At least not immediately...

More importantly, what is your DCR? I am doing several X275 Drag Radial LS engines for some guys and they have over 12:1 with 25 lbs of boost. It's all in the cam selection. This one car weighs 3100 lbs and runs 4.80's in the 1/8 mile.
As pmuller pointed out about your pistons, rod length also affects your DCR, so calculate that with the cam specs you are running and see what you get.


Isky turbocycle b cam part# 381tb. Dcr around 7/7.2 (depends on final... Everything) most of the calculations I've run land in that area with that cam.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #224 by CNC-Dude » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:05 pm

Anything between 6.5-7:1 DCR is where you want to be with pumps gas. Since your likely going to run an iron head, i'd stay to the lower side of that range. You can also get a custom grind cam and/or play with the advance or retard, both of those will affect the DCR to tweak it or even add more dish to the pistons to drop it down a bit to get you in the range better.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #225 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:03 pm

Thanks Dude all good points for the turbo boost crowd; DCR calculations are always a fun exercise and cause for occasional mental gymnastics :hmmm: .
However, we will take your comments under advisement, as we are probably 9-months to a year out B4 we will be investigating and wringing out the Turbo alternatives. Current plans call for another separately funded Dyno program. Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #226 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:47 pm

I just received feedback from the owner of the previous CNC ported 300 head.
The engine is in a 1977 two wheel drive pickup with a 4 speed manual trans.
1985 carb head with 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust, 1.6 ratio BBC roller rockers

Flow Specs:
Lift, I, E
.100, 59, 47
.200, 113, 87
.300, 160, 120
.400, 192, 145
.500, 204, 163
.600, 212, 178

Jones Cam: 232/232, 288/288, .534"/.534", 112 LSA

240 rods
Autotec pistons, 9.75 compression ratio
Clifford intake with Quickfuel HR-650 Carb
Hedman headers
DS2 with MSD ignition system

He took his first long trip from Spokane WA to Boise ID going 70 mph when possible. (about 2200 rpm)
He reports that the gas pedal only requires a slight touch to maintain 70 mph and averaged 18 mpg.
Plenty of torque available at 2000 rpm.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #227 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:04 am

Very nice Paul :thumbup: . It's also reassuring to know the Lunati 277/232/.533 intake lobe that I love so much will perform down low as well. I couldn't give people accurate information about street ability, only having used it with a 3000 rpm stall converter.

Is the Clifford intake a 4502WH with full plenum water heat?

What rear end gears in the truck?
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #228 by deere114 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:19 pm

We're about to have that lunati installed to! Hopefully tonight. I think the 300 can be moderately over cammed with good drivability over say a 302. It helps greatly that there's such a rich knowledge base on this forum over some of the generic "throw an f can in it" from the 5.0 world. Running the efi intake manifold should keep it very drivable on my build over your offy c as well I'm thinking, not to mention my 3.55's over your 2.75's. Now if we can exceed 500rwhp from the 300 we'll actually have MORE potential with stock components over the 302 guys.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #229 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:21 pm

With the 300 we always had the foundation/bottom end, and with the help of these fine folks here, will have the heads to suit all. :beer:

My calculations say the Sr./Max flow u head will put down 500whp (600fhp) at 20psi with a lunati 277 or Paul's Jones cam....only time will tell.

A little off topic, but the turbo 3.8 tbird ran identical 1/8 mile times and mph with 3.08's as 3.73's, and slowed in the quarter with 3.73's.
Turbo's work better the harder the engine is loaded....funton made 13psi in 1st gear, 16psi in second, 18psi in third.

It all depends on the entire combo and desired usage. Pick a gear you like for the street, and manage boost to suit.... Not a single person believed me that I had 2.75 gears in the sleeper when they went for a ride. It was a beast with those gears because the stall converter put me into a usable powerband right now, and the gears loaded the engine and put me in boost right now.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #230 by guhfluh » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:48 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I just received feedback from the owner of the previous CNC ported 300 head.
The engine is in a 1977 two wheel drive pickup with a 4 speed manual trans.
1985 carb head with 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust, 1.6 ratio BBC roller rockers

Flow Specs:
Lift, I, E
.100, 59, 47
.200, 113, 87
.300, 160, 120
.400, 192, 145
.500, 204, 163
.600, 212, 178

Jones Cam: 232/232, 288/288, .534"/.534", 112 LSA

240 rods
Autotec pistons, 9.75 compression ratio
Clifford intake with Quickfuel HR-650 Carb
Hedman headers
DS2 with MSD ignition system

He took his first long trip from Spokane WA to Boise ID going 70 mph when possible. (about 2200 rpm)
He reports that the gas pedal only requires a slight touch to maintain 70 mph and averaged 18 mpg.
Plenty of torque available at 2000 rpm.
I'm not sure I understand what this "previous CNC ported 300 head" is or how it relates to these new heads. Maybe just the flow rate comparison(same bench?) and his results with his setup?
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #231 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

guhfluh wrote:I'm not sure I understand what this "previous CNC ported 300 head" is or how it relates to these new heads. Maybe just the flow rate comparison(same bench?) and his results with his setup?


Because the present day project is a continuation of my original efforts which included this first CNC ported head.
I had to move before I had the opportunity to dyno the completed engine.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1539 ... st18069505

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #232 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:07 pm

Sick6Turbo wrote:... Not a single person believed me that I had 2.75 gears in the sleeper when they went for a ride. It was a beast with those gears because the stall converter put me into a usable powerband right now, and the gears loaded the engine and put me in boost right now.


Sick6,
My 11 second RPU drag truck uses a high stall converter and 2.47 rear gears, and while it is NA I can relate. Computer projections with 4.56 gears puts it in the tens. On a mildly built engine. One nice thing about running such numerically low gears is that it will hook in a mudslide. Have you also found that to be true under boost?
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #233 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Hot off the press from Gramps tested this evening.
As previously requested Here are the flow numbers for a stock Ford EFI head with stock valves.

Image

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #234 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:04 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
Sick6Turbo wrote:... Not a single person believed me that I had 2.75 gears in the sleeper when they went for a ride. It was a beast with those gears because the stall converter put me into a usable powerband right now, and the gears loaded the engine and put me in boost right now.


Sick6,
My 11 second RPU drag truck uses a high stall converter and 2.47 rear gears, and while it is NA I can relate. Computer projections with 4.56 gears puts it in the tens. On a mildly built engine. One nice thing about running such numerically low gears is that it will hook in a mudslide. Have you also found that to be true under boost?


Yes. That is exactly why I left the stock 2.75 gears in, to hook on the street with a light rear pickup. Also mathematically easier (less tq) on the stock locker and axles.

The 3.8 turbo tbird started with 2.73's and when switching to 3.08's it did have some small traction issues. This was early in the game for this car though, prior to more serious suspension/tire mods. It was mid 12's then, stock everything except for drag radials and a turbo.

I have found in the 8 turbo builds I have done so far, lower gears (higher numerically) only help from a dead stop when casually driving, and can be more of a hindrance where the gear is too short and almost wasted. Not enough load to light the turbo quickly and shifting right as the turbo lights in some cases. Put a 4x4 truck in 4lo and mash the throttle....its like you can't shift fast enough.

And when you do have say 3.73 gears, your in 2nd gear withing 60 feet which is worse numerically than 2.75 gears and 1st gear.

In every auto trans turbo build I have done, the converter has been the best friend, along with 2.73-3.08 gears to hook and to put that long fat tq curve to work. Same reason many turbo cars run 2 speed autos. I choose to run c6's with 1st and 2nd as my 2 speed auto with 2.xx gears and 3rd for overdrive so to speak.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #235 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:04 pm

Sick6Turbo wrote:My calculations say the Sr./Max flow u head will put down 500whp (600fhp) at 20psi with a lunati 277 or Paul's Jones cam....only time will tell.


That is about what I figure also but the Lunati cam specs can be improved to be more turbo compatable.
I would invite you to continue this discussion in the "Turbo,Supercharger and Nitrous" section

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #236 by Sick6Turbo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:50 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Sick6Turbo wrote:My calculations say the Sr./Max flow u head will put down 500whp (600fhp) at 20psi with a lunati 277 or Paul's Jones cam....only time will tell.


That is about what I figure also but the Lunati cam specs can be improved to be more turbo compatable.
I would invite you to continue this discussion in the "Turbo,Supercharger and Nitrous" section


With all due respect, dirty fingernails will kick a computers ass at the track every time.

I have over 30,000 hours, yes over 30,000 hours of research on turbo cams, the overlap degrees and lobe profiles intake and exhaust and the timing events that make a car faster than the next. Real life results (Ken Duttweiler, Lil John) in all engine makes, cylinders, and size available on the internet.

Most importantly, the little guys, that very few have heard about but are exceptionally fast for the parts they are running. They all have one thing in common and I have discovered the answer. The Lunati cam is very close to the answer, and should be advanced 1* to be most efficient, nothing else.

Combine that with 40 years (this November) of hands on engine experience, and you have a man and satisfied customers that are confident that he can spec a cam for the combination whether turbo or not...regardless of what a sim might say.

In closing, best wishes to all. I am better suited to getting dirty fingernails than plunking computer keys. It's time to say goodbye. Hope to see a lot of fast 300's with the new heads on youtube.

Go fast, but most importantly, be safe.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #237 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:07 am

Dale
I don't do plunking computer keys either. There are no sim programs on my computer. Just a lot of data logged from many years of racing
I just didn't want to side track this thread so I suggested moving the discussion to the turbo section.
Paul
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #238 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:18 am

Thank you for your insight Sick6Turbo. I have some very distant plans for a 300 turbo build. Will you please PM me your contact information as I have nil "dirty fingernail" experience with performance turbo applications and I will need lots of guidance if you are interested.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #239 by WorldChampGramp » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:33 pm

Gentleman:

Directed to Turbo6 and PMuller from Gramps:

Camshaft timing has always been one of my favorite methods of improving performance in fact my competitors use to jest and quip ‘whose lump stick is Sizemore running this week’. I never had the luxury of Dyno testing any of my camshaft curiosities NOW I DO. I never had the opportunity to pick anyone’s brain as to what they have tried and can attest to as showing improvement, NOW I DO.

With future suggestions From both of you and hopefully useable mechanical flat tappet or roller camshafts ((LOANERS)) from dedicated Forum Members, Our Dyno program will try and ferret out various grind and displacement angle (LSA) alternatives with all 3 of our cylinder head offerings SVO JR, SVO SR and our Alloy BSX-Flow .

In my Ford Motorsports days I was fearless in my pursuit of excellence, I was perceived as impetuous, a young “smart ass” from the Performance Events Department who did the dirty work for others, with a ‘take no prisoners’ attitude. I always asked too many questions, broached technical grey areas as if I was some kind of quasi expert, pissed off a bunch of people along the way etc. etc.

BUT>> always got the answers and reported results to my colleagues and Managers. Anytime someone called complaining about my “credentials” the answer was always “Give him what he wants this is important and being done at the direction of Mr. Passino@". Yes I was totally insulated from the fear of job loss or even reprisal; it’s amazing what One can accomplish when there are No Roadblocks.

My Forum audience is very much a part of the engine that drives my resolve. I promise, when time permits, that the highly anticipated Turbo development program [subsequent to the successful completion of our 3-head effort] will receive the “full Monty”. I encourage healthy debate but I will step in when I think we are headed off track ‘to right the ship’ and stay focused on our ultimate Goals.

In the meantime PLEASE TREAT YOURSELVES to The Following this weekend:
@This Marvelous Man was both feared and revered; here is a great read about Ford’s 110 TH anniversary of Racing in 2011, you should know I was hired at the insistence of Mr. Jacque Passino Six months after he became Director of the Ford Corporate Motorsports. Please click on the following link and enjoy https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/ ... tid=136573

Then treat yourself to Mr. Henry Ford II and his Steel Resolve Ford Racing philosophy; https://www.si.com/vault/1967/12/25/610 ... ame-flying

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #240 by Wesman07 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:34 pm

It’s funny because your still a smart ass Bruce. :beer:

Can we get these CFM flow numbers for the stock head in a sticky??
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #241 by WorldChampGramp » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:39 pm

Wesman07:

This is as Stickey as I can get. BTW It’s not nice to refer to Gramps as an SA, Rule # 1 respect your elders. :fume:

4.9L EFI Cylinder Head Flow Session July 2, 2018 Ft Myers, FL
USED - 1988 Ford OEM 4.9L EFI Cylinder Head
1.78 Intake; 1.56 Exhaust both .341 stem Dia 4.750 OAL

Superflow SF-110 Flow Bench ,
standard 4.00" bore adaptor, 28" water

Operator Buddy "O" 6-6:30 PM

Intake Exhaust
Lift CFM Lift CFM
0.100 44 0.100 40

0.200 92 0.200 74

0.300 120 0.300 104

0.400 132 0.400 114

0.450 144 0.450 120

0.500 154 0.500 124

0.550 160 0.550 126

0.600 166 0.600 128


Sizemore notes: all flow work done in A/C controlled Shop environment
temp 77( F) relative Humidity 56 percent

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #242 by sandboxer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:59 am

Alright!
Time to chime in. Great job on the very obvious improvements over the stock head to the one you're offering. If anyone can match the gains that you've achieved, then great, but for what I see, you've done as good as can be expected.
Cheers
Chris

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #243 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:59 am

sandboxer wrote:Alright!
Time to chime in. Great job on the very obvious improvements over the stock head to the one you're offering. If anyone can match the gains that you've achieved, then great, but for what I see, you've done as good as can be expected.
Cheers
Chris


Thank you Chris. Kind words mean alot to Gramps, especially in this anything goes World we live in. Bruce

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #244 by Wesman07 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:34 am

WorldChampGramp wrote:Wesman07:

This is as Stickey as I can get. BTW It’s not nice to refer to Gramps as an SA, Rule # 1 respect your elders. :fume:


My apologies Bruce. I assure you I meant no disrespect. I respect and admire elders who have a bit of “zing” to them.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #245 by sandboxer » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:23 pm

Getting back to cam specs for the current head, I'm wondering if a tighter angle and split pattern might be an interesting place to start...
Any ideas on a base line?

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #246 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:55 am

sandboxer wrote:Getting back to cam specs for the current head, I'm wondering if a tighter angle and split pattern might be an interesting place to start...
Any ideas on a base line?


Anything in the 230 .050" duration range will give you a good street/strip power band with reasonable idle and fuel economy.

The last fully ported, big valve head engine had a 232/232, 288,288, 534" lift on a 112 LSA
It idles smoothly at 900 rpm but it will also idle down to 650 rpm with lope.
It got 18 MPG from Spokane WA to Boise ID.

If you tighten the LSA and increase the exhaust duration it will take a higher rpm before the engine smooths out, the midrange and higher rpm power band will be increased.

If you want a weekend warrior hot rod with rough idle and plenty of power move the .050" durations into the 240s
Put a close ratio box or an auto with a 3000 stall converter and have fun.

So it depends on what engine response you want.

We're thinking about something around 230 degrees on a 110 LSA for the first stage EFI head on the first dyno session.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #247 by Lunatic Fringe » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:33 pm

Many thanks to Gramps,Pmuller, etc,etc... for the work you guys are doing. I'm happy to see history unfolding in front of us!

Once you get all 3 heads far enough along, it would be nice to have cam recommendations for each level,especially once rollers are available.

Do you have a tentative date for the Dyno?

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #248 by WorldChampGramp » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:04 pm

LF your new response acronym... compliments of Gramps. I anticipate we will start the Dyno effort using our Customers engine build with the finalized SVO Jr. Head. Pistons have to be ordered from Auto-Tec, machine work on short block completed, I have to gatherr all the pieces, then do 'make fits and fixes' and bless final assy for the pump. Engine will be 9.75 to 1 static ratio, single 4BBL on a Offenhauser C manifold expect the Dyno fitting will be sometime in late Sept or Early October. By that conclusion of our Jr Head 300 torque maker for JUNIOR (yes that's our customers name ) I will be able to focus on the next u-flow engine build which doesn't have a customer name assigned YET. That's a big hint for anyone wishing to go the Max-Flow route or better said SVO SR. Quite ferankly a coustomer build with all the special attention I and others can muster would be someones best assurance of success. Your thoughts are welcomed. Bruce :idea: :thumbup:

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SVO JR and SVO SR Updates

Post #249 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:43 am

Gramps has been BZ keeping our efforts ON TRACK and avoiding side roads which always present themselves in any concerted effort like ours.

As previously stated, the entry level EFI head (Now Known as SVO JR) is complete in design, flow work goals exceeded, finished to 66 CC chamber volume. We are Damn near ready to announce availability and ordering procedure but MAY deliberately hold off until our first customer engine build is completed and the SVO JR is proven to perform well on the DYNO.

Our next challenge is the Max Flow design EFI head presently targeted at 260+ CFM . Port work is moving along nicely, using 2 chamber sacrificed/segmented OEM EFI heads which are much easier to flow test than the entire 29” Lump.

BTW if you are going to the Summit Motorsports Bash next week in Norwalk, OH; “Gramps” will be there as a VIP guest of the event organizers. You might enjoy listening to me explain how and why, while also laying 50 years of rumors to rest, about the infamous “BS” aka “Canadian” 428 CJ heads, that made these 50 light weight ’68 Cobra Jets FLY .

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #250 by WorldChampGramp » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:58 am

Overdue Big Six Development Program update :party:

The trip to Summit Motorsports Park was productive. Many Old & New contacts were made who are NOW fully aware of my efforts to complete this challenging “Triple Play” cylinder head development project. These New Ford Motor Company contracts have resulted in my gaining access to their blueprint archives, for crucial prints necessary to greatly assist in our machining and flow bench efforts.

Here’s where we stand as of this date.

• SVO Jr 300 EFI head flow work, chamber CC’s and valve size specs are finalized.
• SVO Sr 300 EFI head flow work is progressing nicely toward or goal of offering a 260 CFM intake port flow configuration.
• BSX-Flow is our fabricated Aluminum Casting Cross Flow, almost ready for final processing with an anticipated functional completion date of first quarter of 2019.

Our First Dynamometer test engine (a local customer complete build) using the SVO Jr head is currently waiting for delivery of Auto-Tec pistons, followed by final assembly and testing in 4BBL configuration on the pump.

We have cemented a field test Event relationship with a Forum Member to ‘ring-out’ the SVO Jr head under ideal conditions. Testing will be same day, same engine, same car, same driver, same track conditions using a near bone stock fresh 300 EFI rebuild and swapping out our SVO Jr head [on the spot] for what we think will be proof positive of its performance capabilities.
We are currently seeking one or two additional forum members, who may be using extensively ported EFI u-flow heads on whatever type of competitive venue they now enjoy. Our goal is to supply them with a complete SVO Sr max flow head assembly and then "Field Test" in a similar method as outlined above in the SVO Jr comparison. :thumbup: :wow:

Please PM me if you have interest in cooperating in this planned SVO Sr performance endeavor.

A personal side note:

Standing on that starting line again after a 40-year absence, feeling the ground vibrate, savoring those unique smells of extreme combustion pressure exhaust fumes, etc. etc. has hooked Gramps again. I am now certain that our BSX-Flow Aluminum head will be tested in ¼ mile competition, on a Don Hardy Pinto body chassis, replete with a Nash 5-speed almost identical to what I campaigned so successfully in the mid to late 1970’s. My Machinist friend AL, like me, is hell-bent on making this happen. “Gramps”

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