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Water Jacket Hole Issue

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Matthew68
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Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #1 by Matthew68 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 pm

Hi Folks,

I am prepping my block for setting the bead back on. I’m chasing all the head holes in the block with an old head bolt with a line cut into it. I’ve got no issues with all the holes, with the exception of the water jacket hole.

I’m getting major resistance when working to tighten down by hand to the point it doesn’t want to move. I measured from the deck to the bottom of the bolt top and I’m getting about 2.2 inches for all of them. The water jacket hole stops at 2.4 inches.

What gives? I don’t want to force anything and risk making a bigger problem for myself. What should I do in this situation?

Cheers,
Matthew

I’m trying to attach photos but it says the attachment quota has been reached.
1968 Mustang Coupe 200ci - Pertronix + Coil
Gulfstream Aqua - Interior + Exterior

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chad
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #2 by chad » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:18 pm

what's @ the bottom?
skratch it.
I think U said U have "the Handbook".
It shows that this is a head bolt/stud to focus on (I believe U named the farthest R frnt or "#13" bolt). On some of our motors that hole goes dwn into the water jacket. One must B prepaired to do a lill grinding (1/4 inch?) of the stud used there so as to not contact the impeller of the H2O pump; to coat the threads w/RTV or other to prevent rusting.

May B U R runnin into a lill snot, gule, gunk - from an assembler who followed protocal? may B U R hitting rusty bolt end? may B it's the 'bottom' Check it out'n C...

If head wuz off & machined look to the Handbook's pointers on #11 bolt as well...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

drag-200stang
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #3 by drag-200stang » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:43 pm

Take the water pump off and check it out, you can see what is going on and it will make sense...Be careful there, that bolt boss is weak because of the clearance for the water pump impeller...Studs screwed down there hard can crack the block at that one, they will also hit the impeller..You may need a better chase because of rust...How thick is your head? my uncut head is 2.435 so that one will need something done.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Matthew68
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #4 by Matthew68 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:29 pm

Well, I started to take the water pump off but ran into an issue. It appears the top pump bolt broke (I didn’t even touch it) from either the previous owner or something very strange. It broke basically at the head of the bolt, 2-3 threads included.

It’s been like this for who knows how long, and nothing has leaked. I’m hoping to swap this 200 block for a 250, but should I be overly concerned? I’m not trying to create more issues by attempting to drill and tap, and that will be very difficult with the engine in the car.

I’m assuming I’ll be ok.

Has anyone every drilled and tapped with the engine in the car? Is it even worth it?

Cheers,
Matthew
1968 Mustang Coupe 200ci - Pertronix + Coil
Gulfstream Aqua - Interior + Exterior

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chad
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #5 by chad » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:28 pm

"...worth it?."
not if U swap motors.

Easy enuff if room, may B remove other stuff to do the wrk.
Just sounds like U can grab the end showing & no need for major "dril, clean, chase threads, etc."
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Matthew68
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #6 by Matthew68 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:17 pm

chad wrote:"...worth it?."
not if U swap motors.

Easy enuff if room, may B remove other stuff to do the wrk.
Just sounds like U can grab the end showing & no need for major "dril, clean, chase threads, etc."



Not enough room unfortunately. The bolt is in the hole a few mm and not accessible. The head broke off, leaving it inside. It would need to be drilled/tapped.
1968 Mustang Coupe 200ci - Pertronix + Coil
Gulfstream Aqua - Interior + Exterior

drag-200stang
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #7 by drag-200stang » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:27 pm

Wish that i never posted sorry... :bang:
If you do drill be careful the cylinder is not far away, also be aware that to long of bolts on the top and bottom are not blind and will push in on the cylinder wall, distorting it.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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chad
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broken bolt/stud @ H2O pump

Post #8 by chad » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:42 pm

"...Not enough room unfortunately...."
move whatever's in da way (radiator, fan, whatever's needed as its gotta B done 2 get in there).
Same as an exhaust fastener F*^# Up. Ya gunna pull the engine for that?

sometimes U can use a mig to weld another bolt on, turn the head of that bolt.
If the bolt in there is hardened it will B hard to drill it etc.
Do Not use an 'Easy Out' those R an abomination.

Just this wk I used a drill, pretty much cored it out w/alota passes (not like regular, 1 pass, but all around, not into the center but lot of small dia holes all in there) picked out the pieces adhered to the 'thread grooves'). It wasn't pretty. Then, as the hole wuz good, made it a lill bigger w/a tap slightly lrger than the orig bolt/stud.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Econoline
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #9 by Econoline » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:42 am

Sorry, I'm confused. You said you broke the head of the bolt off, but you meant to say you broke the bolt completely off? In other words, after removing all of the other bolts and pulling the water pump off, the bolt is broken in the block with nothing sticking out? That should be a pretty easy bolt to drill out, the hard part is getting a hole started in the center and drilling straight, start with a smaller bit like an 1/8". You may need an angle drill to fit in the space there. And i'm with chad on "easy outs" they are worst things ever, don't go there :bang: .
It ain't gonna fix itself

Matthew68
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #10 by Matthew68 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:21 am

drag-200stang wrote:Wish that i never posted sorry... :bang:
If you do drill be careful the cylinder is not far away, also be aware that to long of bolts on the top and bottom are not blind and will push in on the cylinder wall, distorting it.


Not your fault at all. Like I said, this bolt has been broken for a long time. It was already broken in the hole, it wasn’t anything you said or I did!
1968 Mustang Coupe 200ci - Pertronix + Coil
Gulfstream Aqua - Interior + Exterior

Matthew68
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #11 by Matthew68 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:24 am

Econoline wrote:Sorry, I'm confused. You said you broke the head of the bolt off, but you meant to say you broke the bolt completely off? In other words, after removing all of the other bolts and pulling the water pump off, the bolt is broken in the block with nothing sticking out? That should be a pretty easy bolt to drill out, the hard part is getting a hole started in the center and drilling straight, start with a smaller bit like an 1/8". You may need an angle drill to fit in the space there. And i'm with chad on "easy outs" they are worst things ever, don't go there :bang: .



Correct. The head plus a few threads are broken off and the rest of the bolt is in the block inaccessible. This was going to be the first bolt I removed. Since it’s not currently leaking I didn’t remove any others. I’ve apparently been driving the car like this since as long as I’ve owned it (1 year). I might just throw some thread sealer in that hole and call it a day.
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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #12 by Econoline » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:43 am

Ok, so you haven't taken out the other 2 boltsand removed the wtr pump. iirc, there are 2 longer bolts and 1 shorter bolt. You're afraid the others will break as well. If you can remove the other 2 bolts and pull the pump off maybe there is some bolt sticking out of the block, then you can kroil and remove with pliers/heat? If only the head and a few threads are gone there should be some bolt left sticking out of the block when the wtr pump is out of the way, esp if it's one of the longer bolts. I'm of the mind to bite the bullet and fix it now, chances are it will start leaking.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #13 by Matthew68 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:22 pm

Econoline wrote:Ok, so you haven't taken out the other 2 boltsand removed the wtr pump. iirc, there are 2 longer bolts and 1 shorter bolt. You're afraid the others will break as well. If you can remove the other 2 bolts and pull the pump off maybe there is some bolt sticking out of the block, then you can kroil and remove with pliers/heat? If only the head and a few threads are gone there should be some bolt left sticking out of the block when the wtr pump is out of the way, esp if it's one of the longer bolts. I'm of the mind to bite the bullet and fix it now, chances are it will start leaking.


That's a very fair argument. I was thinking if I pulled it and broke any "seal" that's holding it together, that if the bolt doesn't stick out any then I just created myself a larger problem (potentially).
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chad
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broken H2O bolt in block

Post #14 by chad » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:45 pm

"...bite the bullet and fix it..."
2X
but every1 hasta make their own decisions.

No confidence? 'S OK, can't U practice elsewhere?
These R things we wrk hard to avoid (repairs 2 our own problems) but run up against all the time
(once every 3 motor swaps, once every 2 months of H2O pump servicing, exhaust mani swaps/repair, etc).
Just part of the territory. Unfortunate'n avoidable in most cases but not here w/yours. No 1 likes to tear apart
anything to get room - just to put it back (not need service) but 'a buggered hole' just frm laziness is an even bigger
problem to repair. "It more character building, Chad." the ol man usta say & he wuz 'an office man' (grew up 'fahamin' tho).

Good Luck, keep talkin~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #15 by ags290 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:28 pm

I had the upper water pump bolt on our 1965 Mustang break off flush with the block like you are describing. I was able to remove the radiator and front grille to gain enough clearance to drill it out using a standard drill. The trick as mentioned above is to make sure that you get a good center line hole on the remaining bolt.

I used Irwin TurboMax drill bits and went very slowly with lots of light weight oil. I started with a small bit and worked my way up to the size required for the Timesert kit tap. (Timsert's are threaded inserts like a helicoil but tend to work better, you can buy them on Amazon)
I drilled the same hole 3 or 4 times with larger bits each time until tapping the hole and installing the insert. I made the repair 3 years ago and it has never leaked.

The other option that you might have would be to weld a nut to the broken bolt. It is the method that I preffer, but I did not have a welder at the time of the repair above.

Good Luck,

Kevin
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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #16 by woodbutcher » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:57 pm

:D Another way to drill that out(or any other)is to use a LEFT HAND drill bit.Usually,the heat generated by the drilling will sometimes back out the broken fastener.Everybody needs to have a set of left hand drill bits in their tool kit.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
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Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Water Hacket Hole Issue

Post #17 by Econoline » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:38 am

ags290 wrote:
The other option that you might have would be to weld a nut to the broken bolt.

Kevin


Yeah that :thumbup: . Even just lighting the end up with the mig can break it free as it cools. I used the weld/nut method on a couple of exhaust bolts on a head. One was barely sticking out so I welded a thick washer to it then a nut to the washer. It helps to turn in a touch then out, and if it gets tight, then back and out again and so on. Lots' of kroil. Another trick is to hit it with some wax while it's still red hot and it will draw it into the threads. Good luck
Last edited by Econoline on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #18 by Matthew68 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Thanks, guys. I suppose I’ll take a crack at it. I think I might have a few threads sticking out, I’ll take a shot at it. I don’t have a welder unfortunately, and I’d rather not disassemble the front grille, but I suppose now is as good of time as any. I’ll take the pump off tomorrow and report back.

Here’s a pic as well.

Cheers,
Matthew

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chad
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Re: broken bolt/stud @ H2O pump

Post #19 by chad » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:26 pm

chad wrote:"...sometimes U can use a mig to weld another bolt on, turn the head of that bolt..."

:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #20 by drag-200stang » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:30 pm

Keep soaking it with PB blaster or your favorite, be patient... the back side also can be soaked when the pump is off...You should be able to turn it out once the rust is dissolved.. Good luck.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Matthew68
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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #21 by Matthew68 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:37 pm

THANK YOU ALL!! It’s out!

I took the pump off, sprayed PB and use vice grips. I had a few mm sticking out. Now I can paint this pump and do a little cleaning of all the grime and rust. I appreciate all the tips and advice!!

Cheers,
Matthew

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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #22 by Econoline » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:44 pm

:beer:
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #23 by rickwrench » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:55 pm

Matthew68 wrote:It’s out!


You are one of the lucky few. You've used your free pass.

Using a MIG, borrowed or whatever, is the best way to remove snapped bolts that are flush. Place a nut over the stub and fill the hole with a MIG. I've welded bolt to bolt, too, but filling a nut is much easier. Keeps the weld and heat contained to the nut and stub. Weld heat breaks the vast majority of stumps loose.

Easy-outs... [cough]scam[/cough].

Rick(wrench)
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Matthew68
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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #24 by Matthew68 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:48 pm

Alright, ready to put the painted pump back on. I was so freaked about the broken small bolt I didn’t realize that the two longer bolts are different. Which bolt goes in which hole? One has threads over the length of the bolt the other only halfway up.
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chad
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mounting H2O pump

Post #25 by chad » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:59 pm

"... I had a few mm sticking out...."
I thought U said it wuz flush.
I would recommend that if I knew....thing is if U don't make those grips very tight
U chew up (destroy) the revealed threads & can't use some other methods of removal.
Congrats!
Glad U decided to mount ur pump w/all its bolts.
Look around the backside (if I remember correctly) of the pump (where it mounts) I think
the block reveals where the long/shrt bolts go.
Use a nail, wire, cut off coat hanger, stick it inda hole'n measure...
Place the "never dry up" style gasket goop on both sides of the gasket. I've had good results w/it.
(Blue tube, red snot inside...1 ada Permitex I believe). Glue gasket on block, test fit pump/bolts,
remove, more snot, replace'n tighten to spec.
Last edited by chad on Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

drag-200stang
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Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #26 by drag-200stang » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:40 am

Did you get that short head bolt thread squared way ?
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Matthew68
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Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:45 am

Re: Water Jacket Hole Issue

Post #27 by Matthew68 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:49 pm

drag-200stang wrote:Did you get that short head bolt thread squared way ?



Yep, Pump is re-installed!
1968 Mustang Coupe 200ci - Pertronix + Coil
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