1963 170 hesitation issues

Yes I have read all your posts and I have addressed your question on the timing being one tooth off and how to check for a worn timing chain and gear set in the #17 post above. Yes I had also seen that you did many of the things listed in post # 18 yet not everthing was stated or even yet such as a compression test, hence the step by step method I use that rules out each item that can be a cause of trouble. Sorry if I have offended you but with any newer member there is little chance of knowing at first where they are starting from as far as experance level until you tell us. Then also there are many other people that search these posts for answers to their questions too so some of my and others answers will be for them.

Anyway there is a problem if your engine has good compression that's close to equal in all the cylinders, plus then we all know now that your engine shouldn't need to have 30 degrees of base timing to run right. Check out your timing chain set this is the likely cause of this. Ie just because the timing marks on the Dampner line correctly with the timing cover timing marks with the piston being at TDC this is only going to show that the crankshaft dampner hasn't slipped. The distribitors body position can be easily turned so that it will fire the #1 cylinder yet the Distribitor rotor is being turned by the camshaft which is turned by the crankshaft via the timing chain and gear set. So if the timing chain set is very worn out its going to be way off in relation to the crankshaft position. Good luck (y) :nod: Edited
 
bubba22349":110o6wve said:
Yes I have read all your posts and I have addressed your question on the timing being one tooth off and how to check for a worn timing chain and gear set in the #17 post above. Yes I had also seen that you did many of the things listed in post # 18 yet not everthing was stated or even yet such as a compression test, hence the step by step method I use that rules out each item that can be a cause of trouble. Sorry if I have offended you but with any newer member there is little chance of knowing at first where they are starting from as far as experance level until you tell us. Then also there are many other people that search these posts for answers to their questions too.

Anyway there is a problem as we all now know that your engine shouldn't need to have 30 degrees of base timing to run right. Check out your timing chain set this is the likely cause of this. Good luck (y) :nod:

Thank'you, I will continue to search for the issue and keep y'all informed. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me...
 
even tho it only has "1 thru 6" bubs has laid out well over 75 steps. Just to go thru them w/o a skip (I do this cuz "I know" & guess what - that 1 I skipped, I didn't know & assumed) will take a full morning.
I often find problems where "I knew everything is OK". Luckily I have another task to get onto or I'd blow my top (not a good thing). I come back later possibly w/the solution frm freein my mind / focusing on something else. /OR/ realize I did not do a simple step lower in the sequence / mislaid a sm component, spoke w/a more knowledgable friend... The guy who's shop I'm at is way better'n me. He keeps at it (more'n me) and has more experience. Sometimes 'not keepin at it" can have advantages too (a break thru).

Example - not that it applies here but - I think I mentioned "condensers & points should B replaced simultaneously" each time. Little things can have little effects (& sometimes bigger). Any way, hope U take a break, sounds like ur attitude already has improved. That's a good thing.
 
My apologies is I came across with an attitude. I do appreciate the knowledge y'all have shared with me.

As I do not own a dwell meter or vacuum test gauge I was curious if y'all would have a suggestion to quality tools to invest in or particular ones to stay away from?
 
Creechn32":1ssevkxd said:
My apologies is I came across with an attitude. I do appreciate the knowledge y'all have shared with me.

As I do not own a dwell meter or vacuum test gauge I was curious if y'all would have a suggestion to quality tools to invest in or particular ones to stay away from?

OK It's all good, we all need to start somewhere and our site members are great people and glad to help you figure it out. On Tach / Dwell units there are a lot of good ones and you can often pick the higher end units used at very reasonable prices. Some of these older models are Snap On, Mac, NAPA Balkamp, Katel, & Craftsmen, there are probably a lot more that am not thinking of right now. I personally like those that have a larger size meter that makes it easy to see from a distance. Did you get your timing chain set checked out yet? Vacuum Gauges are simple and you will find quality ones at most auto parts houses like NAPA again Snap On is a top brand but even the less expensive ones will work good. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
lill bump 1 wk later...
 
Sorry guys, between work, weather, and life I havnt had the time. Still need to grab myself a dwell meter, vacuum gauge, and a timing gasket set. I've been thinking about different possibilities for the poor performance though. I'm going to try and track these things down this week though.....
 
ja get the brand suggestions frm here?
:unsure:
 
Hey guys, I'll try a bit to contribute here. I waded into my 170 a couple years ago right when I got it, because it would drop off on light throttle, then right after that it would respond with a nice torquey pull. After pulling knowledge from this forum... man what a difference a few tweaks made right away! I did what seemed obvious to me first, including plugs and wires, and even rebuilding the carb (Autolite 1100). The car had sat a few years before I got it, so I was eager to do this. But it wasn't the cure. I came back to this forum, dug deeper, then down the rabbit hole I went. The gremlins I found on mine were as follows:
1. Needed a new accelerator pump diaphragm... mine had rotted and was leaking onto the motor with every pull. Couldn't see it right away, but the more I drove it, the more obvious it became. Even a tiny drip on acceleration means less fuel to the motor. The logic is obvious, but it wasn't obvious right away that it was even leaking. Of the entire carb rebuild, this made a difference, but didn't fix it...
2. Tightened up the linkage to the accelerator pump. I think you mentioned doing this. On mine, this closed the gap big time on the initial stall during acceleration. I did the drill bit set up, then found I needed to take it a bit further for best results. It didn't make it go away though, probably more of a bandaid.
3. Time by vacuum, check dwell. Timing by vacuum was a bit of a game changer... I found that the right timing for my motor was way out there as well. It was REALLY hard to get it to ping. I assumed some of this was because my balancer had rotated. It was old looking, easy to assume it was bad. Changing the balancer did nothing for me. The old one hadn't slipped afterall. Dwell was tricky because micro adjustments are difficult. The meter really is the trick... just keep trying till you nail it. All in all, these made improvement, but weren't the main problem.
4. Make sure your choke opens its blades ALL THE WAY when warm. These motors struggle to breath as it is. This also didn't fix the problem, but made overall performance better.
5. I suspected fuel pump and filter... mine were serviceable and terribly dirty, so I cleaned them with little improvement. Why I didn't do this earlier, I don't know. Though it should have been one of the first things, it also wasn't the answer I needed.
6. I was pulling excellent vacuum while timing with the vacuum gauge, so I assumed I had no vacuum leak. I could also watch the vacuum advance as I reved the motor. I finally grabbed the distributor vacuum advance hose and sucked on it (motor off of course)... it was a leaker. It should pull down tight, mine kept pulling. Don't draw to hard on this, they are delicate. As soon as I changed this, the car was amazing. I actually had to drop back a touch on the accelerator pump linkage to make it just right (turns out the drill bit adjustment technique was spot on). The stall at initial acceleration was GONE. Yet STILL the timing was out there on the balancer.
7. A friend came by and rotated the crank, watching the rotor. He'd rotate one way and then the other, watching for delay in rotor movement. Turns out it doesn't take much of a lag in movement to show you that there is slop in your timing set. I pulled the cover, finding SO MUCH SLOP in the chain. Rotate the crank enough to tighten the chain one side of the gears, then push the middle of the other side of the chain back and forth. It shouldn't move more than 1/2" (from what I was told). Mine moved 3/4". Everyone I've told that to was pretty amazed I hadn't slipped a tooth by now. Maybe I had, given how far off my timing was showing. I followed protocol for re-setting TDC (also found on this forum) and installed a new timing chain and gears. Now the thing times perfectly. Oddly, I didn't notice an improvement from this one. I think that lends credence to how accurate the vacuum method times your motor. It's the better way to get your motor (with its worn out components) to run at its absolute best. But I'm glad the chain isn't at risk for jumping a tooth now, and so happy to drive this car every day!

Anyway, maybe this helped... these really are fun peppy little motors once you get them in shape.
Final takeaway... this forum is amazing. FULL of wisdom that makes working on these motors a joy. Left on my own, I would have done less than half of the above, and wondered why my timing chain ended up breaking. :)
Good luck, and of course post back your answer when you find it.. .we'll all be better for it.
Cheers, Gruuvy.
 
well said!
I think U put it all together in this 1 post.
We've (may B? I wont re-read) spitted it out piece by piece.

"...maybe this helped..."
He's gunna proceed on ur #3 nxt I think.
Glad U found the 'keys' as it sounds like ur a 'happy driver' now...

Don't we'all make a good team?
(y)
 
Sometimes you sit down to type a short post, haha. Didn't mean to write a full summary as much as to have fun with my own trail of tears. Spoiler alert/shortcut: #6 was the fixer for me.
 
Gruuvy6":3b6kiw79 said:
Sometimes you sit down to type a short post, haha. Didn't mean to write a full summary as much as to have fun with my own trail of tears. Spoiler alert/shortcut: #6 was the fixer for me.


Sounds like I am traversing a similar rabbit hole. I know accelerator pump is new, fuel filter was replaced, the vacuum diaphragm on the distributor was replaced, all new quality ignition components. This is not to say that maybe I haven't gotten a bad part in there somewhere. My next plan of attack is I've picked up a vacuum test gauge. I'll try tuning with it and see how close that gets me but I've suspected timing chain issue since the beginning of this thread. I have yet to be able to track a dwell meter down in person so I will probably end up having to order one online. I'll keep tuning away and moving onto the next possible problem till we get the issues solved. Thank y'all for all the insight. On another note I do know the previous owner replaced the fuel tank and sending unit before I purchased the car. I am wondering if he replaced the fuel pump however. There have been some tell tale signs that point to the previous owner taking a couple shortcuts on the work that was performed so Imhave my doubts. I've wondered if when he had the engine "redone" how many parts they reused, like the timing chain, or perhaps the camshaft. Has me thinking that if the timing chain is bad that it's not that much further at that point to do a cam swap to maybe coax a little more torque out of her....
 
So, hooked up the vacuum gauge to the manifold where the Pcv valve attaches, it was pulling right near 21 inches with minor fluctuation. I adjusted the idle mixture screw which steadied what very little fluctuation there was. I moved the timing very minutely to increase it to a steady 21 inches of vacuum. When I plugged the Pcv valve back in I noticed the engine didn't sound as good. Disconnected the Pcv valve, plugged the line, and when I took it around the block there was no hesitation. My questions now are, is the Pcv valve bad and needs replacing or should I be taking vacuum readings with it hooked up? Or is it both? I know a Pcv valve is just some pocket change to replace but oddly enough I don't think I've heard it mentioned in any of the suggestions. When I plugged the Pcv valve back in like it should be and drove around the block the hesitation returned. The valve isn't stuck, it still has spring pressure behind it but it could probly still use replacing.
 
Creechn32":1n28nagv said:
So, hooked up the vacuum gauge to the manifold where the Pcv valve attaches, it was pulling right near 21 inches with minor fluctuation. I adjusted the idle mixture screw which steadied what very little fluctuation there was. I moved the timing very minutely to increase it to a steady 21 inches of vacuum. When I plugged the Pcv valve back in I noticed the engine didn't sound as good. Disconnected the Pcv valve, plugged the line, and when I took it around the block there was no hesitation. My questions now are, is the Pcv valve bad and needs replacing or should I be taking vacuum readings with it hooked up? Or is it both? I know a Pcv valve is just some pocket change to replace but oddly enough I don't think I've heard it mentioned in any of the suggestions. When I plugged the Pcv valve back in like it should be and drove around the block the hesitation returned. The valve isn't stuck, it still has spring pressure behind it but it could probly still use replacing.

Yes a PCV can and maybe bad though they last a very long time they do require replacement somtimes you can also clean them with carb cleaner too. Yes for sure the PCV needs to be hooked up (as its a controlled vacuum leak), during the fine tuning of the carb's settings as well as the Air Cleaner in place with a clean air filter too and all other parts that would be normally be installed for the cars on the road operation. You can't get a good accurate tune without all the systems in place. You can use a T fitting in the line temporally for the vaccuum gauge hook up. Remember that the carb settings are the very last thing to adjust after you first have Ignistion dwell setting correct as well as the base timing set correctly. Did you ever check the timing chain out or test it for excessive slop? Good luck (y) :nod:
 
I did check for slop and I could not observe any noticeably turning the crank in both directions. As soon as I turn in either direction the rotor begins to turn. So, I'm not sure how far out dwell could be with a new set of points but I would need to find a dwell meter to check. I still don't think a small adjustment in dwell is going to explain the timing being so far out. That could be me not knowing though....
 
Creechn32":214bbjul said:
I did check for slop and I could not observe any noticeably turning the crank in both directions. As soon as I turn in either direction the rotor begins to turn.

1. Ok I am glad to know this info and we can check off the timing chain set as not being a cause of timing problem it's in excellent condition!

So, I'm not sure how far out dwell could be with a new set of points but I would need to find a dwell meter to check. I still don't think a small adjustment in dwell is going to explain the timing being so far out. That could be me not knowing though....

The cam lobs of the distributor are 60 degrees apart. The points will be roughly about .006 to .008 too wide of a gap when set to the basic factory starting setting, which retards the timing some, even the spark plugs gap being wrong (to wide or to narrow of a gap) can all effect the timing and the coils operation, and that is why both of these need to be set correctly before setting the base timing. You are right in your thinking that the points not being set correctly wont account for all the difference of the base timing being at 30 degrees, but it will be a part of it. Now that we know the timing chain is good, there will be another cause in this mystery and some more data will be needed to diagnose the problem. Is the SCV on the carb working? Good luck (y) :nod:
 
Is your block a '63? I believe only California emission engines came with a PVC in '63. Even then, the PVC valve was located where the road draft tube attached to the block.

Can't see in your photos if there is a road draft tube on your engine. Would be at the front of the block, just ahead of the distibutor.

Plugging the vacuum line to the PVC seemed to get you running better.
 
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