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C5AE rods

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Mdixon300f100
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C5AE rods

Post #1 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:45 pm

So in preparation for the 240 I’m picking up next weekend, I decided to strip down the 240 I picked up last year that’s been sitting on the stand in the basement. It appeared to be a stock engine, although I couldn’t read the casting # on the block. The guy said it was a “70s” era 300. The pistons are flat top with 4 valve pockets, bores measured 4.038 with cheap harbor freight vernier calipers. The rods are small pin variants with C5AE casting # and no spit holes. :beer: If this other 240 has the same rods I may decide to hold off on the turbo build and go in another direction...
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Re: C5AE rods

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:02 pm

Nice!
The 1968 and earlier 240s used the Ford 289 V8 pistons and is the reason for the 4 valve reliefs.
Those are indeed the "Good Rods"
What would you do instead of a turbo project?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #3 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:10 pm

I was thinking about utilizing the 240 crank honestly, it’s a little scratched up but maybe offset grind it for a few more cubes. I figure with those rods, the shorter stroke, and the head it could handle 7k. Maybe not, but food for thought. Fun to run while I build something else anyway. I’ve always loved the sound of a high revving 6

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #4 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:15 pm

I was really surprised to find them in there. Someone had been in the engine before, the #1 piston looks different from the rest, and the head had a D shaped chamber. Cam measured .392 lift at the valve. Center sump pan. It had been in a storage container for 20yrs buried under years of junk. As you can see the rod bearings r wiped, but the mains appear ok. I still have to clean everything, and press the pins out of the rods at work this week.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 pm

The 240 crank can easily handle 7000 rpm.
The crank has a lot of journal overlap making it a very rigid unit with low torsional harmonics and is nearly indestructible compared to the 300 crank.
The rod angle is a crazy 2.13 so very little piston side loading and reduced "G" forces at TDC.

You could do a high rpm turbo engine.

You would need a solid lifter cam and some really good valve springs.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #6 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:39 pm

Well, isn’t that great to hear :rolflmao: Maybe I’ll set my sights on the rest of the turbo plumbing at this years swap meets while I assemble a block. If this next engine is still near factory bore I may be ready to begin.

Check out the thread “another turbo 300 in a f150” on the turbo page, I have that head.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:31 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:Check out the thread “another turbo 300 in a f150” on the turbo page, I have that head.

It doesn't look like the stock spring locators were machined flat.
If the locator is left in place the inner spring will be compressed further than it should and the spring pressure will be more than expected.
With shorter stock valve lengths they could go into coil bind.

I do not like the soft pushrod guides for long term use that he originally used.
Are those the ones that came with the head?

I would like to see the port work.

That was a great buy. The rocker arms alone was worth the money.
What rocker arms are they?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #8 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:43 pm

I’m planning on having it worked over by the local machinist after racing season starts around here. Right now he’s tied up with other customers, but was enthusiastic about it when I went to talk to him. They’re aluminum Harland sharp rockers. Can the Teflon guide insert be replaced? The inner springs appear to be sitting flush with the outer springs around the seal, although I haven’t taken anything apart yet to take measurements. What’s the best course of action for pistons? I’m assuming custom, but it’d be nice if there is a stock item that works. I’m also thinking my carb is way too big, I believe it’s 750cfm, another swap meet bargain I couldn’t pass up.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:32 pm

The 1.6 ratio Harland Sharp rockers are perfect.

In order to get the rocker roller tips centered side to side on the valve tip ,we use the Comp adjustable pushrod guides and weld them at the proper center to center spacing.
I thought that a 1.940" spacing would work for everyone but I was wrong due to variations on the rocker stud spacing.
You need to install the pushrods and rockers, then center the roller tips and measure the pushrod centers where the guide plates locate on the pushrods.
BigBlue94 just went through this exercise starting on post #123 in the following thread.
viewtopic.php?p=615486#p615486

The 300 head combustion chamber should have around 76cc which means you need a flat top piston without valve pockets to get an 8.8:1 compression ratio with the pistons at zero deck height.
You will need to CC the chambers.
The piston CD or pin height is 1.600" +/- .010"
Ford 302 V8 pistons fit those dimensions but all have valve pockets.
At 7000+ rpm with boost I would recommend a forged 2618 alloy piston.

You shouldn't need more than a 600 cfm carb for this project.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #10 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Does the combustion chamber shape allow for a 5cc dome piston? That could compensate for large chambers as long as it doesn’t cause interference.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:18 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:Does the combustion chamber shape allow for a 5cc dome piston? That could compensate for large chambers as long as it doesn’t cause interference.

Sure.
A 5cc dome would be about .035" high or about the thickness of the head gasket so it wouldn't actually go into the combustion chamber.
Not sure if you want a compression ratio higher than 9:1 with 20lbs of boost with pump gas.
If you run E85 then it would be no problem.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #12 by old28racer » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:52 pm

Just so you know this is what a set of Comp SBC adjustable guide plate welded together looks like.
Image
Image
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #13 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:41 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:Does the combustion chamber shape allow for a 5cc dome piston? That could compensate for large chambers as long as it doesn’t cause interference.

Sure.
A 5cc dome would be about .035" high or about the thickness of the head gasket so it wouldn't actually go into the combustion chamber.
Not sure if you want a compression ratio higher than 9:1 with 20lbs of boost with pump gas.
If you run E85 then it would be no problem.



Quess I need to order that cc’ing kit that’s been in my cart on summit for 6 months. Hard to accurately determine anything without it. Ok I’ll update later. Thanks for the info. I don’t want to get ahead of myself yet, I still need a block :D

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #14 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:29 am

Would something like this work?

https://www.amazon.com/Speed-Mercury-Fo ... B00E1J4OCG

I’m a little concerned about the valve reliefs pictured, kinda negates any quench if one lands in the quench area. Maybe turning the .045 off the top eliminates that?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:26 am

You don't want to cut any off the piston top for turbo application. You need all the thickness possible.
Speed-Pro pistons are heavy plus the skirt coating do not stay on the piston.
We have tried most of the skirt coating and the only thing that stays indefinitely is anodizing.
Either anodize or stay with a bare aluminum skirt.

If you go with an "off the shelf" piston they will have valve pockets for the V8 heads.
Look through this list and filter for the 1.599" to 1.610" Compression Height pistons.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... =Ascending

The problem is non of the above pistons are designed for boosted application.
I would consider a set of BWE 2618-T6 alloy pistons. I spoke with Bruce earlier this year for pricing and a set of flat top pistons were $105 each and pins for $18 and $30 each depending on use.
He also offers an anodized skirt with a ceramic top heat shield for $40 both processes for each piston.
http://bwepistonrings.com/pistons.html

You can also compare prices with Ross pistons and RaceTec pistons.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #16 by sandboxer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:23 am

What would the best material be to machine one’s own rods from billet?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #17 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 am

From my understanding forged billet that’s then machined is not as strong as stamped forging with cleanup machining. Something about the way it structures the steel it the shape of the forging, rather than a round or flat bar stock that’s machined after the steel structure is formed.

Regardless probably the same thing the pros use...

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:45 am

sandboxer wrote:What would the best material be to machine one’s own rods from billet?

Most rod manufactures use some form of the 4340 steel alloy with the 300M being one of the best.
Timken Steel also supplies some of the best steel alloys for rods.
Some of the manufacturers have their own heat treating process.

It would easier if you could purchase forged blanks from one of the suppliers.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #19 by CNC-Dude » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:54 am

Many of the companies such as Crower and Carillo and most others have their own proprietary processes and material they use for their connecting rods, and treat those intellectual properties as "trade secrets", so finding much details about this may be very difficult to obtain. And you might find yourself subject to being the victim of misinformation more than getting useful info. But I know of a guy that made his own rods out of stainless steel for a straight 8 Buick saltflat race car and had good results.
Image

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #20 by sandboxer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:41 pm

Great information all.
Thank you

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

The 6.385” BBC small journal connecting rod can be used for the 300 six.
There are two available at reasonable cost.
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 rod at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

Image
Image
Last edited by pmuller9 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #22 by Max_Effort » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:12 pm

Tom Molnar has forgings and will make the rod. It was an order of seven sets to get good pricing.
He said the slant six rod was the same way, starting with a group of hardcore slant six drag racers, then just enough demand to put them In the catalog. He doesn’t sell a lot of them, but they do sell. The Chevy six is a more popular application.

I’ve had billet rods made from 4340 bar stock. They are CNC machined, but there are plenty of other steps to make the rod besides machining it to shape.

This is one of the rods I had made by Murphy’s Motor service. I think I paid $1600 for six rods in 2007.

1948AC99-448C-4410-9305-74841C510B0F.jpeg


They start from this

D4EC054A-282C-472B-9275-2C885FBA5284.jpeg
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Re: C5AE rods

Post #23 by sandboxer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Now that’s inspirational. I’ve heard of guys making their own bits and pieces, and I belong to those that wish they could make everything.

I like the look of that rod.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:54 am

I almost forgot an option for the 240 six.
Molnar makes a 7.130" long billet rod for the Chevy 292 six that will fit the 240 crank.
The 240 crank journals are turned down to 2.100" and the journals are widened .035" so a generous radius can be formed for extra crank strength.
https://www.12bolt.com/store/p32/292_Bi ... olnar.html

Image
Combine those rods with a custom forged flat top piston that has a 1.28" CD and a total piston and pin weight under 600 grams for a screaming six.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #25 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:13 pm

So I’ve been running some numbers with the Wallace racing calculators, and found something interesting. The engine parameters calculator puts the redline rpm for the factory 240 rod length over 11k rpm. Is that what you meant by the only thing limiting you is the valve springs? Is that possible with worked over C5AE rods? Valvetrain aside, is the rotating assembly really THAT strong?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #26 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Yes, but you want to include all of the valve train as the limiting rpm factor followed by port flow just in case someone wants to get picky about the statement.
Bruce used the worked over C5AE rod in the Prep H race car 300 six at 6800 rpm.
He broke Ford forged steel cranks often in the Pinto until he destroked from 3.98" to 3.75"
The 240 crank with only a 3.18" stroke is much stronger and has less destructive harmonics than the 300 crank.

The other weak link is the cast iron main caps that can crack when the 300 crank is wiggling around at high rpm.
Much less of a problem with the 240 crank

It is very important to reduce piston weight which also part of the equation.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #27 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:12 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:So I’ve been running some numbers with the Wallace racing calculators, and found something interesting. The engine parameters calculator puts the redline rpm for the factory 240 rod length over 11k rpm. Is that what you meant by the only thing limiting you is the valve springs? Is that possible with worked over C5AE rods? Valvetrain aside, is the rotating assembly really THAT strong?

Having the potential for a rod/piston to rev to 11K is way overkill vis-a-vis the rest of the rotating parts and pretty much a waste of resources. Friends of mine rev their crossflow well into the 9000+ range and trust me, every piece of that valvetrain has been evaluated on a Spintron (valvetrain dyno) and drastically redesigned. For example, the roller camshaft alone has to be moved over, with bigger journals and more journals added and revisions to the front drive. The gears (now belt), lifters, pushrods, rockers, rocker stands, valves, springs, keepers, retainers, etc. are all custom. I joke with them saying "I was going to buy a short block like that but I bought an airplane instead".

And don't even get me started on modifications to the block.

P.S. They use FORGED cranks exclusively.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #28 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:34 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:So I’ve been running some numbers with the Wallace racing calculators, and found something interesting. The engine parameters calculator puts the redline rpm for the factory 240 rod length over 11k rpm. Is that what you meant by the only thing limiting you is the valve springs? Is that possible with worked over C5AE rods? Valvetrain aside, is the rotating assembly really THAT strong?

Having the potential for a rod/piston to rev to 11K is way overkill vis-a-vis the rest of the rotating parts and pretty much a waste of resources. Friends of mine rev their crossflow well into the 9000+ range and trust me, every piece of that valvetrain has been evaluated on a Spintron (valvetrain dyno) and drastically redesigned. For example, the roller camshaft alone has to be moved over, with bigger journals and more journals added and revisions to the front drive. The gears (now belt), lifters, pushrods, rockers, rocker stands, valves, springs, keepers, retainers, etc. are all custom. I joke with them saying "I was going to buy a short block like that but I bought an airplane instead".

And don't even get me started on modifications to the block.

P.S. They use FORGED cranks exclusively.


I wasn’t looking at anything that extreme, I also wasn’t aware it was feasible in stock geometry.

So I was wondering what the displacement change does for VE in regard to the cylinder head flow. I understand it moves the powerban up the rpm range about 1k, but what about VE at lower rpm? Is there significant change in port velocity that hinders low (say 2500) rpm operation? I hear a lot of ratings in hp/ci, but is there a direct relationship between hp/ci/rpm and VE?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:22 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:So I was wondering what the displacement change does for VE in regard to the cylinder head flow. I understand it moves the powerban up the rpm range about 1k, but what about VE at lower rpm? Is there significant change in port velocity that hinders low (say 2500) rpm operation? I hear a lot of ratings in hp/ci, but is there a direct relationship between hp/ci/rpm and VE?

In general decreasing the displacement only, leaving all else as is, the smaller displacement engine will have to go to a higher rpm to create the same port flow and VE so the power band moves upward.
However looking at the 300 six we see that the port is undersized for the displacement as shown by the increase in torque off idle as the valve duration increases.
That makes it possible for the 240 to have a low rpm crossover point where it has a slightly better VE than the 300 but the 300 will have more torque over the entire rpm range simply from the fact that it has 25% more displacement than the 240.

When the intake system allows port reversion at lower rpm so there is a well defined power band (instead of flat torque curve), reducing displacement significantly reduces the low rpm VE and torque and while the power band moves upward it also becomes shorter.

One of my customers back in the late 1970s wanted more torque for his 1974 Z1 Kawasaki.
So we had his engine cases sleeved from 66mm to 76mm changing the engine displacement from 903cc to 1197cc.
We kept the stock cam and 28mm carbs and no port work to the head. The engine already had headers.
The 903 normally starts pulling hard at 5000 rpm and you shift at 8000 rpm.
When we finished there wasn't any power band to speak of, just a flat torque curve that would lift the front end off the pavement in first gear from 2500 rpm like it was a dirt bike.

In 1980 I did another 1197cc engine in a 1975 Z1 with a fully ported big valve head, "Hot" street cam, larger carbs and headers.
Now the engine started pulling at 4000 rpm and another hard pull at 7000 rpm, shift at 9500 rpm.
The owner only weighed 135 lbs. and he would run the 1/4 in 10.2 sec in full street trim including turn signals.
He promptly set out to annihilate the new Suzuki 1100 owners that were just hitting the road.

Excuse me for reminiscing the good old days.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:11 pm

A 60mm TP38 turbo would make good power with a 240 to 6500 rpm but there are a few things that would help get boost early.
What A/R turbine housing does the turbocharger have?
What transmission?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #31 by MechRick » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:21 pm

One of those big two valve Kawasakis with an open megaphone header has to be the best sounding four in existence. Nothing like it...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:27 pm

MechRick wrote:One of those big two valve Kawasakis with an open megaphone header has to be the best sounding four in existence. Nothing like it...

Amen!

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #33 by Mdixon300f100 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 am

pmuller9 wrote:A 60mm TP38 turbo would make good power with a 240 to 6500 rpm but there are a few things that would help get boost early.
What A/R turbine housing does the turbocharger have?
What transmission?


It’s the stock 1.15ar turbine housing. It has a wicked wheel compressor blade. I’m going to have to upgrade the transmission, right now it the T170 3+od. 2.75 rear. I’d like to start with a simple exhaust manifold, make a collector off the efi manifolds to the twin scroll flange to help spool.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #34 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:14 am

A 1.15 A/R turbine housing is on the large side for a 240 six as far as low rpm response. Good for making high rpm power.
I wouldn't expect the engine to start pulling hard till 3000+ rpm.

A 300 would have a much better low rpm response but you would not run it much past 5500 rpm.
It depends on what you want.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #35 by Mdixon300f100 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:56 am

pmuller9 wrote:A 1.15 A/R turbine housing is on the large side for a 240 six as far as low rpm response. Good for making high rpm power.
I wouldn't expect the engine to start pulling hard till 3000+ rpm.

A 300 would have a much better low rpm response but you would not run it much past 5500 rpm.
It depends on what you want.


There are smaller turbine housings available, but I think spooling around 3500rpm should work for me. I’d like to change to a wide ratio 4 speed trans and keep the high gear rear end to utilize the rpm as well.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:22 am

If it all works for you then you have a good start.
Hoping your other block is good.
This will be a fun project. I don't remember anyone else posting a turbo 240 build.

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #37 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:02 am

I’m assuming that a C6AE is still in the category of desirable?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #38 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:20 am

sandboxer wrote:I’m assuming that a C6AE is still in the category of desirable?

Yes it is still in the category of desirable if you change the C6AE to C5AE. :lol:

Beams polished, rods shot peened and resized with ARP bolts

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #39 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am

Too funny:)
The engine block is a C6AE, which I believe is a 1966 block...
So therefore...
I’m about to travel a great distance to buy it so I’d better be sure

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #40 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:14 am

Too funny indeed! I figured we were still discussing connecting rods.
Yes any 240/300 block will work as long as there is little wear and it's not cracked.

What is the block history?

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #41 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:47 am

Rebuilt engine actually, with the good rods...:)

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Re: C5AE rods

Post #42 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:04 pm

So since I started putting things together life decided I needed to stop. We recently found out we’re expecting #3 in November. So as much as I wanted to put it off, I needed to find some real estate for us to fit into. 3 kids don’t fit in a 750sqft apartment... fortunately I’ve found a house. Even better I now have a GARAGE :beer: after the move is over and everyone’s settled in, I can get back to it. Thanks for everyone’s input, there’s more to come from this project :nod:

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68Flareside240
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:52 am
Location: Selma, AL

Re: C5AE rods

Post #43 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Congrats on the addition!

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woodbutcher
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Location: LaFollette Tn.

Re: C5AE rods

Post #44 by woodbutcher » Wed May 22, 2019 4:23 pm

:D Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh boy.Now the fun begins.Congrats.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
"People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election".
Otto von Bismarck

Mdixon300f100
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 am

Re: C5AE rods

Post #45 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed May 29, 2019 10:43 am

So my quest for hp has led me to a set of comp endure-x 836-16 solid roller lifters. A guy the next town over is selling them for cheap, and I can’t pass up the chance to get my hands on some. He says they have 125 passes on em, I still need to pick his brain on the conditions they were run in, but for less than 20% of a brand new set I’m getting them.
:beer:

pmuller9
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Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: C5AE rods

Post #46 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 10:51 am

So does that mean you are going to run a Bullet roller cam?

Mdixon300f100
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Re: C5AE rods

Post #47 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:12 am

pmuller9 wrote:So does that mean you are going to run a Bullet roller cam?


A billet roller cam? Yes, it’s just a matter of finding someone to make 1. I may even get longer valves and springs to accommodate more lift. I think right now with the head setup as it is I’m limited to .575 total lift. I don’t know if more lift will benefit since it is a turbocharged end goal, but if nothing else I can open the valve much faster, and run high enough spring pressure to rev out to 8k without floating the valves.

Mdixon300f100
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 am

Re: C5AE rods

Post #48 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:14 am

Now seeing as I’m trying to stick to keeping everything secondhand as much as possible, if anyone has a roller cam they want to part with, let me know. I would be very grateful...

:nod: :thanks:

pmuller9
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Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: C5AE rods

Post #49 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:44 pm

Bullet Cams will make you a billet roller. (I really didn't misspell) LOL
Since they make the blanks in house they are the least expensive.

Mdixon300f100
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 am

Re: C5AE rods

Post #50 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed May 29, 2019 4:59 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Bullet Cams will make you a billet roller. (I really didn't misspell) LOL
Since they make the blanks in house they are the least expensive.


LOL :rolflmao: good to know!

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