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Industrial 300 forged cranks?

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Mdixon300f100
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Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #1 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 pm

Quick question, there’s a listing in my area for an industrial 300, former irrigation pump. R these industrial engines the equivalent of the HD ford truck engines with forged cranks, or just standard cast crank? He’s asking 1000 for the 300 and a 4.2, both duel fuel equipped. The boneyards here r bare of 300s. I’ve checked everywhere within 200 miles.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #2 by jason832 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:43 pm

I don't know how many replies you'll get this is a bit of a hard question. I doubt many guys here have torn down industrial engines and reported what crank it had. The answer will likely be "maybe, you never know what ford put in it" and "there's no way of telling until you pull the pan off and check the numbers"

Legend has it that a cast iron or heavy duty water neck may indicate its an HD engine. Maybe look for a High Flow log exhaust manifold on it?

The normal cranks are very solid. Unless you're building a high power drag engine or sled pull engine or high rpm screamer you shouldn't need one. When the crank becomes a weakness you're deep into a build. Or unless you wanted to sell it and turn a profit maybe (always good to save one from going to scrap many guys want one.)

Maybe if you could post the as we could all speculate what it might be

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #3 by sdiesel » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:43 pm

ford power engines b4 1972, might have forged cranks.
but...most of those have become ford Re-power.
they have been rebuilt, with unknown parts.
I hsve torn in two 75 model sixes, both have cast cranks.

bright spot:
if the engine has the original ford power color, and is on a peculiar piece of municipal equipment ( a red scare siren system, and back up generator), it may be original down to the casting sand in the bottom of the pan.
but still no guarantees of a forged crank. it will have a lot of life in it though.
I have it on good authority that the airport tuggers of the day were all forged units. but...they have been rebuilt multiple times too.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #4 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:54 am

Here’s the post.

https://newlondon.craigslist.org/grd/d/ ... 97254.html

It appears to have a standard log manifold. Can’t really see the thermostat housing. As far as the need for the forged crank, I’m currently putting pieces together for a turbo build. And honestly in my area it’s slim pickings, everything went to the shredder a few years back when the steel prices were high.

I’m also looking at a 240 in Rhode Island. The guy says it’s a ‘68, I’m waiting on the casting # to verify. Hopefully it’ll complete my partial set of rods for a different project.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #5 by sdiesel » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:42 am

that's a standard ford power engine.
it's well used, but depending on care might be a good buy at 1000.
Likely not.
it's a 300 dollar engine if it runs.
here are 2 other places to look.
big truck wreckers sometimes get rigs in with a 300 mounted on back for powering attachments.
forklift and speciality wreckers (farm equip, heavy equipment).
most importantly:
govt surplus auctions.local or national. the local fire hall has an old generator....

ex. there is a generator sitting in a forest service yard in nevada with, get this, less than 15 hours on the clock with a flathead engine. it's been there for time out of mind. maybe 30 yesrs?
it was updated with newer stuff. and it's too big a headache to sell it.
assessed at too high a value to throw away.
there is a lot of junk out there like that.

forged is dandy and useful above 5000 rpm. cast is better than good.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:05 am

What is being overlooked is that the 76cc chamber heads for turbocharger projects are also getting hard find and since this engine is set up for propane the head should have the hard exhaust valve seats.
Make an offer for just the 300.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #7 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:51 am

pmuller9 wrote:What is being overlooked is that the 76cc chamber heads for turbocharger projects are also getting hard find and since this engine is set up for propane the head should have the hard exhaust valve seats.
Make an offer for just the 300.


That’s what I was thinking. I have 3 carb 300 heads in my possession now, 1 with oversized valves, hardened seats, and Harland sharpe rockers. The other is a 68 stock 300 head. And the final 1 is a 85 carb head, stock, currently running in the f100.

The real issue is space, and my wife’s getting tired of all the rusty metal in the basement lol. I’ll contact him about it, it might be worth it for the propane setup alone.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #8 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:17 am

Well he won’t sell them individually, and they don’t even include the pumps. I was hoping I could convince my boss to buy them for the pumps, they’d come in handy when the dry dock pumps freeze up and we need to de water the tanks. All well.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #9 by sdiesel » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:51 pm

I missed the dual fuel part.
it's not common to go that way on a stationary.not that I have seen anyway.
two tanks two mixers, why?

I looked carefully and saw what might have been a carb or a mixer I could not i.d. either way, but I did not see both on the 300.
none of the other important propane parts either.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 am

How much boost and at what rpm are you looking at?
I'm assuming you want to use a big valve, ported head?

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #11 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:27 am

I figure 10lbs to start, 6k redline. I have a head from another member that was used for a boosted 300, 1.94/1.60 IE, roller rockers and guideplates. I’d like to get to 20lbs, but I figure that’s going to require water injection. I have a rebuilt tp38 from a 1st gen PSD I’ve modified to use without the oil pedestal, and the wicked wheel upgrade. Custom fabbed intake and demon carb.
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #12 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:34 am

sdiesel wrote:I missed the dual fuel part.
it's not common to go that way on a stationary.not that I have seen anyway.
two tanks two mixers, why?

I looked carefully and saw what might have been a carb or a mixer I could not i.d. either way, but I did not see both on the 300.
none of the other important propane parts either.


I emailed the seller, he says (operative word) it’s setup to run lp, natural gas, or gasoline. Either way he won’t part with them individually.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #13 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:40 am

You are looking at 550 hp potential at 20 lbs of boost.
I would not use stock rods.
What exhaust manifold?
What cam specs are you considering?

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #14 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:40 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You are looking at 550 hp potential at 20 lbs of boost.
I would not use stock rods.
What exhaust manifold?
What cam specs are you considering?


I haven’t gotten far as I haven’t found a suitable core block yet, however I am prepared to buy rods and pistons as needed when the time comes. I’ve read the reverse split cams are pretty much unavoidable with big boost numbers, so something similar to the isky turbo B cam. As for the exhaust, possibly a twin scroll adapter fit to the efi manifolds. I also saw a kit to fab your own exhaust out of pvc and ball joints, that are shipped out and fabbed, and shipped back completed. Kinda pricy but might be worth it.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:51 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:I’ve read the reverse split cams are pretty much unavoidable with big boost numbers, so something similar to the isky turbo B cam. As for the exhaust, possibly a twin scroll adapter fit to the efi manifolds. I also saw a kit to fab your own exhaust out of pvc and ball joints, that are shipped out and fabbed, and shipped back completed. Kinda pricy but might be worth it.

The duration split depends on the exhaust manifold.
A log type manifold needs the reverse split with very little overlap to isolate the intake from the high exhaust manifold pressure.
The longer tube primary headers offer much lower pressure at the intake valve when it opens allowing a single lobe pattern to be used.
A wide 112 to 114 LSA is used to minimize valve overlap at this level.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #16 by sdiesel » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:49 pm

so it's ....wait for it...tri fuel!!
there's a guy in classifieds (might be me), has gotta Lotta what ur needing to get this down the road. if u live in the PNW.

this seller, now on dilemmas horns, keep everything he owns cause the new heads are out, in the hope of someday being stationary long enough to button up a new hot engine,

or cut and run as the likelihood of the above mentioned stationary stats is receding out of view.
and give someone else a chance to push this across the finish line....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #17 by Max_Effort » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:30 am

There are plenty of used engines in the New England area. I see them on Craigslist and FB market place. Most are newer engines. $300 to $500 is about average asking price.
You can buy a whole running (rusty) truck for $500.

The forged crank is hard to find. Ive been asking and I have resources for vintage crank cores.

I spent a couple minutes and found a 4.9 engine, asking $350
https://hartford.craigslist.org/pts/d/d ... 02828.html

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #18 by arse_sidewards » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:57 am

Max_Effort wrote:There are plenty of used engines in the New England area. I see them on Craigslist and FB market place. Most are newer engines. $300 to $500 is about average asking price.
You can buy a whole running (rusty) truck for $500.

The forged crank is hard to find. Ive been asking and I have resources for vintage crank cores.

I spent a couple minutes and found a 4.9 engine, asking $350
https://hartford.craigslist.org/pts/d/d ... 02828.html


If you just need a block I have a '94 that might need to be bored 10 over (no compression on all cylinders because it was run with contaminated oil for several hundred miles, you might be able to just ball hone it but I haven't checked the bores with a gauge so I don't know) that I'd part with for free.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #19 by Mdixon300f100 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:50 am

I’m going to pick up a supposedly original ‘68 240 in Providence next week. $100.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #20 by CNC-Dude » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:55 am

Just for some general info, there are several guys on the Inliners forum that are making over 1000 HP with boost on the 292 Chevy engines using cast cranks that have never had any issues, and have raced the same cranks for several seasons pretty regularly. In our Modified Production drag car we always broke forged cranks with less passes on them than the cast cranks. The cast cranks only lasted twenty 1/4 mile passes.
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #21 by Mdixon300f100 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:59 am

sdiesel wrote:so it's ....wait for it...tri fuel!!
there's a guy in classifieds (might be me), has gotta Lotta what ur needing to get this down the road. if u live in the PNW.

this seller, now on dilemmas horns, keep everything he owns cause the new heads are out, in the hope of someday being stationary long enough to button up a new hot engine,

or cut and run as the likelihood of the above mentioned stationary stats is receding out of view.
and give someone else a chance to push this across the finish line....


Yea, I’ve drooled over your stash more than once in the classified section. The last 100lb block of cast iron I had ups deliver cost 150 in shipping, from half as far away.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #22 by arse_sidewards » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:06 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:I’m going to pick up a supposedly original ‘68 240 in Providence next week. $100.


That sounds about right. If you're watching the market and buy when the deals come up you can get 240s and 300s for that price.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #23 by sdiesel » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:29 am

is it like stupid crazy expensive to get forgings made.?
are there molds hidden somewhere in detroit
?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #24 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:45 am

So far nearly everything for this build has been second hand. I’m doing my best to keep to that, the budget is tight. So 1500 or more for a one off forging is way out of my range.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #25 by CNC-Dude » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:30 am

sdiesel wrote:is it like stupid crazy expensive to get forgings made.?
are there molds hidden somewhere in detroit
?

Factory forged cranks are grossly over rated, and youll likely never be able to obtain a power level with a production cylinder head to warrant using one. It'll cost much more than they will benefit you compared to a well prepped cast crank. A fully counterweighted cast crank is plenty tough enough to handle any performance level you could ever build with a 300. Even in Bruce's Pinto back in the day, with his hybrid head 300, his forged cranks only lasted about 15 quarter mile passes. So short of building something to that extreme, a forged crank isn't going to be of much benefit.
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #26 by Max_Effort » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:24 pm

sdiesel wrote:is it like stupid crazy expensive to get forgings made.?
are there molds hidden somewhere in detroit
?


Unless someone has the forging dies (dies, not molds) it’s not going to happen. There is not enough demand for a forged crankshaft to make new dies. If there was, there would be an offshore forging availible now.

The alternative is a billet crankshaft, machined from a solid round 4340 or EN30B steel billet.
That would set you back at least $3000, maybe more as the 300 has a long crankshaft.
I’m sure Moldex or Scat would make one.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #27 by CNC-Dude » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:35 pm

Moldex and Scat are about the same price as well. Until there is a cylinder head capable of allowing the 300 to make horsepower in a range that a billet or even a forged crank is necessary, there is really no concern as to whether a cast crank is more than adequate to fill the bill for any builds, N/A or forced induction.
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #28 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:10 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:Moldex and Scat are about the same price as well. Until there is a cylinder head capable of allowing the 300 to make horsepower in a range that a billet or even a forged crank is necessary, there is really no concern as to whether a cast crank is more than adequate to fill the bill for any builds, N/A or forced induction.


The previous owner of cylinder head I’m using was running 20lbs with e85 with no issues. It was “another turbo 300 in a f150” over on the turbo page. I haven’t been hung up on it...

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #29 by sdiesel » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:46 pm

and I'm asking this as a precursor to the next subject.
yes dies not molds sorry.

we now have new blocks, new heads, , maybe some rods will appear.

so the next obvious will be new crank from reputable shop in asia.

especially if the ford dies lay in netherworld suspension someplace in Detroit. perhaps the forgings were outsourced?

the cast is adequate, but as more people build these monsters and as power levels increase,
we will see a demand.for more radical components.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #30 by CNC-Dude » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:58 pm

I hope you're not expecting these "new cylinder heads" to be anything close to what was achieved by all out ported race production cylinder heads that were raced decades ago. Yes, these "new heads " will be an improvement, but nowhere near being able to produce the flow numbers and power levels that these early race heads did. So in short, even with those early full tilt maximum ported race production heads back in the day, the 300 still didn't produce enough power to require the necessity of forged cranks because the cast cranks held up fine, even with crazy high RPM and killer high compression.
The big leap in power with these engines came when they begin to create the hybrid heads with sectioned 351C cylinder heads instead of the production.
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #31 by Max_Effort » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:08 pm

sdiesel wrote:and I'm asking this as a precursor to the next subject.
yes dies not molds sorry.

we now have new blocks, new heads, , maybe some rods will appear.

so the next obvious will be new crank from reputable shop in asia.

especially if the ford dies lay in netherworld suspension someplace in Detroit. perhaps the forgings were outsourced?

the cast is adequate, but as more people build these monsters and as power levels increase,
we will see a demand.for more radical components.


The rods can be made. I did some work on that, but reception was lukewarm at best. There is of course the BBC rods.

I’m probably going to use a set of 6.350” Oliver billet rods left over from a blown up race engine. They are small block rods and I’ll have to piston guide them.

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #32 by CNC-Dude » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:24 pm

As another option, Molnar/K1 Technologies also makes H-beam rods for both the Chevy 250/292 inline 6 and the Chrysler Slant 6 pretty inexpensively, so they are open to doing products for inlines without a doubt. As for the forging dies, the biggest piece of the puzzle isn't the dies themselves, but the machine that takes the glowing red hot mass of steel and twists it. But again, billet and forged cranks are way too much overkill for anything you can ever build, regardless of how many turbos you put on it or how much boost you make as long as you use a production cylinder head, ported or not. Save your money and spend it where you truly do need it, such as rods and better pistons, but not cranks
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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #33 by sdiesel » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:39 pm

a fascinating ton of good information in the last posts. thx.
I'm confused about forgings. my old man had a fount ry and a drop press, and later hydraulic, but he never let me into the shop to know what was going on.

here is a fine question.
if the equat ion for a forged steel crank requires certain power out put numbers, why did mopar use steel cranks in so many production engines?
what, from an engineering perspective required a steel crank in a 318?
in my view that engine was a pinnacle of sorts for the v8 design. but I'm at a loss to explain the steel crank...
especially if we are seeing our sixes beginning to creep toward the 500-600 hp neighborhood. the option of steel cranks could be discussed, in conjunction with other engines that seem to need them.
is it that a v8 crank is naturally weaker?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #34 by Max_Effort » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:35 am

sdiesel wrote:a fascinating ton of good information in the last posts. thx.
I'm confused about forgings. my old man had a fount ry and a drop press, and later hydraulic, but he never let me into the shop to know what was going on.

here is a fine question.
if the equat ion for a forged steel crank requires certain power out put numbers, why did mopar use steel cranks in so many production engines?
what, from an engineering perspective required a steel crank in a 318?
in my view that engine was a pinnacle of sorts for the v8 design. but I'm at a loss to explain the steel crank...
especially if we are seeing our sixes beginning to creep toward the 500-600 hp neighborhood. the option of steel cranks could be discussed, in conjunction with other engines that seem to need them.
is it that a v8 crank is naturally weaker?


Most if not all of the earlier V8’s had forged steel cranks.(and earlier engines in general)
They are stronger, but more expensive to manufacture. Eventually OEM’s determined that a cast crank would hold up fine in most passenger car and light truck applications.

Some OEM’s installed forged cranks in performance and HD applications, while using the cast in most other. Chevy SBC & BBC are two examples.

There are a number of youtube videos showing the crank forging process.

This is a short video... 5 cyl twisted forging
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mj8leWsB4w4

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Re: Industrial 300 forged cranks?

Post #35 by CNC-Dude » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:42 am

GM and Chrysler used steel cranks in far more of their engines than Ford did. It could have been that the Ford engineers were more realistic in what they felt really required a steel crank. Throughout the history of Ford performance, you never really hear any complaints about people having failures that used cast cranks except when they used them in obvious over-extreme conditions that would also make forged cranks fail.

Look at some of the most respected Ford engines that have been produced. 289 Hi-po, high revving, high HP for its time......cast crank. 428 SCJ.....cast crank. 351HO...cast crank, even though a few rare examples had forged, they switched to cast cranks even though they had 4 bolt main blocks. But these engines above were not notorious for weak cranks, but spectacular durability and power output.

So, the use of forged vs. cast cranks came down to the wisdom of the designers and engineers that created them. Probably on GM and Chrysler's part, they were just being overcautious or overconfident in their creations requirements.

From the Model T on until the early 1960's, in most all brands of cars, most all engines from 4 to 8 cylinders had forged cranks whether they needed them or not. In those era's, raw materials were cheap and so was labor. Economics became to be more of a consciousness in the later years I'm sure, and some of those practices in manufacturing changed as the volume of vehicle production changed from 10's of thousands a year to hundreds of thousands or more a year.
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