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Has anyone ever built something like this?

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hairyclive
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Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #1 by hairyclive » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:28 pm

BTW has anyone got internal engineering drawings for the block listing bore thickness and showing core placements?
Flyer have you got this in your collection?

BTW marine engine rebuild catalogs have lots of info including casting numbers for most engines
Mahle master catalogs are loaded with stuff. pdf Download available at their site

early 240 / 300 block bored offset to line up at head centers from 4.46 to 4.8 depending on part
5" stroke crank, looks like block would need to be clearanced for this
6.8 rods leave r/s ratio at 1.36 a little short but have found longer rods in catalogs, or custom machined
~4.3" pistons lots in catalogs from 4.2 to 4.6 sizes CH all over the place for CR adjustment
sectioned late model hemi / viper or similar race heads
TBI style injection

makes about 445 CU in but needs airflow like 670 cu in BB
been thinking about this for a couple weeks and checking parts available it looks doable
cheap if you can get some damaged race heads to cut/section

cams available at 280-320 degree duration .5-.600 lift various sources

according to older PHR magazines these engines can make over 500 HP with some reliability, if you keep RPM above 4500 to pass crank harmonic zone, one article listed 9000 RPM for a 4" stroke version with cranks only lasting 40-50 passes
obviously a good crank and 6000 rpm limit would add immensely to reliability

Clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:29 pm

What are you looking at for a 5" stroke crank that is not expensive?

I would say that there hasn't been much effort in this direction because the block can be pushed beyond it limits with turbocharging with the current displacement.

The bore spacing is enough to allow at least 4.185" bore which is something I would rather investigate.
The larger bore would accommodate a much better breathing aluminum head.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #3 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:04 pm

I don't have access to my collection now, but I seem to remember that the cylinder wall thickness was .140 - .170", assuming there is no core shift. A .060" over engine leaves .110 - .140" if everything is perfect, and that is about the limit of my comfort zone.

There are "a few" SVO blocks "out there" that have partially siamesed bores and other mods that enable going bigger than .060. The only other option to go big is fill the water jackets.

You'd need an intake port that flows around 400 cfm for a reasonable RPM range.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #4 by Max_Effort » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:53 pm

This type of build is done with tractor pulling engines. Classes where you have to use the original basic engine, but no limitations on displacement.

You can only go so far with the parent bore of the block. FTF writes .060”is safe and that sounds good to me.
After that you have cut out most of the parent bore to install sleeves. At that point you’re usually going to a dry block and methanol fuel. This ok for tractor pulls or drag racing. You can offset the sleeves a bit to gain a little more room. There still has to be enough metal left to hold the sleeves, and some area for the head gasket to seal.

Some of the tractor blocks are wide bore space for the bore size. I don’t think the 300 is going to accommodate a 4.300” inch bore, the sleeve needs to be at least .187” wall and .250” is better. I have heard of furnace brazing large sleeves in, but still, there are limitations.

Same size issue with the crank, you can only clearance so much until you run out of metal. You also need enough deck height to use a long enough rod or the piston hits the counter weight. Then there can be the issue of the beam of the rod hitting the side of the cylinder wall.

By welding and smaller journals, I’ve added 1.5” stroke to a crank. These aren’t any 9000 RPM engines tho..

Moldex and others will make you crank for around $3500.

I prefer to keep rod to stroke ratio at least in the 1.5:1 range. Even then in these high cylinder pressure pulling engines, I’ve had a few cylinders crack. And there was at least .180-.200” wall thickness with the block half filled.

If you can use any cylinder head, the welded LS head is the obvious choice, there are some nasty heads availible, but then you have to cut at least three of them up.

If this is a mental, bench racing exercise, that’s cool. If you really want to do something like that, get with a boring bar and block and start cutting. See how far you can go.

Oh, and get up early, work late and have a big pile of money ready :lol:

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #5 by Max_Effort » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:00 pm

A few of the things I wrote about are on display here. This is still a parent bore at is limit. Plenty of grinding on that block to get everything to clear with 5.25” stroke and 7.8” rods.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=79219

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #6 by Lazy JW » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:48 pm

Doesn't the camshaft get in the way of adding very much stroke?
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #7 by hairyclive » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:57 pm

posted earlier

by swiss cheesing the block
offsetting the bores and using some diesel wet sleeves machined and siamesed it might be possible to go up to a 4.7" bore.
and leaving .200 walls
offset boring across the block could make the thrust side thicker than the coast side
leaving about .250 thrust .200 sides and .150 on the coast side
I can not find any steel sleeves in the internet catalogs but I know they do exist I have seen some in a shop
or they could be machined from some steel stock or possibly some worn out HD diesel parts that could be recycled
I did find a JD liner for a 4239 tractor motor that has almost the right specs, might be possible to find a used set to play with
could also make a block plate to raise the deck .5-1.5" for more stroke / better geometry

if the crank has to be custom made might as well bore the mains out to 3.00 windsor size and make the crank stronger
also would allow dropping the crank CL about 1" for more cam / block clearance and rod length but would require custom main caps
studs bolts and possible steel pan rail girdle to keep every thing stable.

( still looking to see if some diesel 6 cyl might have a good forging core that can be used to grind for this, there are lots of 6 cyl diesels with 4.8 - 6" strokes ) and some are about the same length as the 300 block ( 29.4" )

a set of aftermarket OHC heads would remove the cam clearance problem, but make a bunch more in the chopping and hacking to piece them together with line boring the cam bearings etc

this basically amounts to custom building most of the engine once you consider the chop and hack required on almost every part to do it
might almost be cheaper to just cast a custom block at the specs required.

Clive (yes the same one that was on fordnatics, fanglers and other lists about 20 years ago.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:43 pm

hairyclive wrote:by swiss cheesing the block
offsetting the bores and using some diesel wet sleeves machined and siamesed it might be possible to go up to a 4.7" bore.
and leaving .200 walls


Please explain.
The block has 4.480" bore centers.
How would you fit a sleeve large enough to get a 4.7" cylinder bore without going to a "W" block configuration?

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #9 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:50 pm

hairyclive wrote:posted earlier

by swiss cheesing the block
offsetting the bores and using some diesel wet sleeves machined and siamesed it might be possible to go up to a 4.7" bore.
and leaving .200 walls
offset boring across the block could make the thrust side thicker than the coast side
leaving about .250 thrust .200 sides and .150 on the coast side
I can not find any steel sleeves in the internet catalogs but I know they do exist I have seen some in a shop
or they could be machined from some steel stock or possibly some worn out HD diesel parts that could be recycled
I did find a JD liner for a 4239 tractor motor that has almost the right specs, might be possible to find a used set to play with
could also make a block plate to raise the deck .5-1.5" for more stroke / better geometry

if the crank has to be custom made might as well bore the mains out to 3.00 windsor size and make the crank stronger
also would allow dropping the crank CL about 1" for more cam / block clearance and rod length but would require custom main caps
studs bolts and possible steel pan rail girdle to keep every thing stable.

( still looking to see if some diesel 6 cyl might have a good forging core that can be used to grind for this, there are lots of 6 cyl diesels with 4.8 - 6" strokes ) and some are about the same length as the 300 block ( 29.4" )

a set of aftermarket OHC heads would remove the cam clearance problem, but make a bunch more in the chopping and hacking to piece them together with line boring the cam bearings etc

this basically amounts to custom building most of the engine once you consider the chop and hack required on almost every part to do it
might almost be cheaper to just cast a custom block at the specs required.

Clive (yes the same one that was on fordnatics, fanglers and other lists about 20 years ago.



Huh??? The bore centers are 4.48" How do you get to a 4.7 bore???
Dropping the crank CL puts more than half below the parting line. So you want to do that PLUS put the cam on top of the engine?

Couldn't we just discuss how many angles could fit on the head of a pin???
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #10 by drag-200stang » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:29 pm

I thought it was angels. :hmmm:
I do offset the bores to the minor thrust side about .010 to give the major thrust side more strength.. Depending on sonic testing .On the sb six.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #11 by xctasy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:21 am

pmuller9 wrote:
hairyclive wrote:by swiss cheesing the block
offsetting the bores and using some diesel wet sleeves machined and siamesed it might be possible to go up to a 4.7" bore.
and leaving .200 walls


Please explain.
The block has 4.480" bore centers.
How would you fit a sleeve large enough to get a 4.7" cylinder bore without going to a "W" block configuration?


He ment 4.27 inches.Didntcha Clive?


And 0.187" is the magical recuring minimum distance between cylinders in engines like the BMW S52, the Ford furnace blazed linered Cosworth BDA 2 liter before the Hart alloy block in all its 2 liter to 2.144 versions which was also linered and had the same 0.187., the overbored Windor Cleveland SVO siamese and 400 Chevs overbored and destroked for F5000.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #12 by hairyclive » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:17 am

While we are on this topic check this out https://www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to- ... al-engine/
This guy got tired of modding inadequate stock parts and just welded and machined his own 700 HP 4 cyl OHC engine.

OK what I said was the correct numbers
the block is in theory capable of being bored and siamese sleeved to 4.8 bore centers
I spent 3 weeks with a calculator and looking through oddball parts to find possible sleeves pistons etc. to come up with this combination.

4.7 (I did not mean 4.27 a good stock block might take that much bore) pistons are off the shelf parts for several large race engines
(found up to 4.9 and 5" so might be possible to repurpose a worn set or 4.725" with a little work on them.

As far as raising decks and lowering cranks if you have to do the rest or the work to get the combo the other 25% work to do that doesn't seem like much more.
May even be possible to make a crank girdle like some euro motors us as rod caps and girdle in 1 pc.

Clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #13 by wallen7 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:25 am

We used to bore them to 4.125 for short track racing, but they wont last because cylinder walls are to thin. But man they would run , we won many a race with them.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #14 by Lazy JW » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:27 am

hairyclive wrote:...

As far as raising decks and lowering cranks if you have to do the rest or the work to get the combo the other 25% work to do that doesn't seem like much more...


Lead the way, my friend, you will definitely be pioneering a new path.
Show us how it's done :thumbup: :nod: :D
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #15 by Lazy JW » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:29 am

drag-200stang wrote:I thought it was angels. :hmmm: ...


Angels, angles, probably could make the same argument for either one, eh? :wink:
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Hairyclive

Any of the sleeve companies have or will make any sleeve you want.
Example: https://dartonsleeves.com/sl_blanks.html

If you are looking at bores above 4.185" then you will be looking at Big Block Chevy, Ford or Mopar pistons either catalog or custom.
Same with connecting rods. "Off the shelf" BB rods can be found over 7" long.

Camshafts up to .600" valve lift are fine on iron cores and a custom cam doesn't cost much more than a catalog profile.

If you are serious it would be best if you got a bare 240/300 block to work with.

If you want to start with a big six look at the IH Red Diamond 501.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #17 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:45 pm

This whole thread reminds me of a study one old-timer told me about, before I was working at Ford R&E.

And thus begins the tale of the SQUARE PISTON small block Ford V8:
Some execs at Ford in the early days of the development of the 221/260/289/302/351/255 Small Block Ford V8 decided it might be possible to make a large displacement engine in a small package if the pistons were square instead of round. So they put a team to work building an engine with square pistons. Imagine the hurdles that had to be overcome to cast and machine a block with square cylinders, to say nothing of making pistons and rings that will seal up inside of them.
The engine was finally done and installed on a dyno. After preliminary run-in the throttle was opened up and the engine proceeded to scatter itself all over the floor of the dynamometer cell. The project was abandoned.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:37 pm

That's too bad they stopped
Honda managed to develop a 4 stroke engine with a one piece square piston and connecting rod assembly in their GP racing program against Yamaha's four cylinder 2 stroke engines.
It did not resemble the Hossack Engine.
They then proceeded with a double connecting rod, oval piston with 4 intake and 4 exhaust valves.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #19 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:59 pm

I remember that Honda 8-valver.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:15 pm

The Honda square piston had a square top just thick enough to hold the piston seals (No skirts) attached solidly to a connecting rod that swung on a standard crank.
The thrust sides of the cylinder curved inward like an Hour Glass while the other two side were straight.
They managed to get their 20,000 rpm but didn't make enough power.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #21 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:01 am

That's one knock I have about Hondas.
While HD has had a V-twin design since dirt was new Honda goes off in all directions - singles, V-twins, I-twins, I-4s, V-twin shaft drive, I-6, Flat-6, flat-fours, etc.

I love Honda products, but gee whiz, "Land the plane Martha!"
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:34 am

And that's only the engines that saw the light of day.
I can't imagine what the prototype storage area looked like.

Anyway I still would like to hear back from Hairyclive.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #23 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:58 am

pmuller9 wrote:The Honda square piston had a square top just thick enough to hold the piston seals (No skirts) attached solidly to a connecting rod that swung on a standard crank.
The thrust sides of the cylinder curved inward like an Hour Glass while the other two side were straight.
They managed to get their 20,000 rpm but didn't make enough power.

I'd love to have seen the leakdown numbers on that beauty.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #24 by Max_Effort » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:14 pm

Can someone explain how you change all bore centers of an in-line six from 4.48” to 4.7” by sleeveing?
I’ve been doing this a long time.. but I don’t get that one.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #25 by xctasy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:29 pm

Its no longer a Big Six.

Its a MIG or CIG Six. With everything morphed out to suit a new bore spacing.


That Model A 4 cylinder used a 4.84 bore center,

Image


so Clive is maybee looking at that.



The Big Block Ford 460 based Mercrusier 4cylinder has a nice 4.9" bore spacing, which would then be rehased as an in line six.

You can do anything you wanna do with Blues Clues....

Firepower354, this was all for you....




https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t ... ce#p230401

Bob St Lawrence got sick of blowing up early Hemis, so he built his Own Block, and arc welded it together using boiler tube and metal plate. Pre heated, and had welded by Tab contruction. He became the turret mill.....


xctasy wrote:Do it yourself!

Image Image Image Image Image Image


HEY!
why'd i go through all the trouble of writing up that explanation of how to do thumbnails?
:stick:
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As for cylinder heads, Aussies were doing it with tooling plate alloy stock in the 50's and 60's.

Twin Cam cylinder heads

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #26 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:24 pm

I still would like to hear from Hairyclive and find out for sure what the thinking is here.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #27 by Firepower354 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:09 pm

When required for tractor puller use of stock castings at least mostly, the heroic efforts of changing bore centers that far almost make sense. For a Ford BB6, I can't imagine it being reasonable. A thick deck plate, extending past the original block, with Darton tied-deck sleeves, could get 4.300 bore, maybe. A Donovan 417-esque bottom girdle may let you drop the crank far enough to clear, and run a practical r/s?

Hank's racer was a boiler-plate build. HUGE one. Exponentially "easier" than removing most of the 300 to replace with steel.

Didn't Ford P/S teams have a brief era where they had to mill out the whole inside of their heads and weld back up to get a decent port in the casting approved? Getting in to the "George Washington's axe" realm...

Red Diamond IHC has around 5" bore centers, tall deck, but the 501 is pretty scarce. My 450 isn't all that common either.
I'm not sure a DT466 isn't at least in part based on the big Red.

Lots of billet heads for diesel and alcohol converted inlines. 6.6/7.8 Brazilian conversion if some semblance of Ford is important?

I still can't see why a pair of Mercruiser 3.7L blocks can't be sliced and welded, adding a solid deck and Darton sleeves. Cheap aluminum 460 heads exist. Legit 4-5/8 x 4-1/2 inline six, all aluminum 453ci shouldn't suck too bad.
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #28 by CNC-Dude » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:38 am

There have been several 3.7 Mercruisers built in Comp Eliminator drag classes that used 4.600" bores and larger. But they are based on the 460 engines, so that's not really difficult for them. I have two of these engines that I'm doing some prototype race parts development for currently.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #29 by Firepower354 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:27 am

CNC-Dude wrote:There have been several 3.7 Mercruisers built in Comp Eliminator drag classes that used 4.600" bores and larger. But they are based on the 460 engines, so that's not really difficult for them. I have two of these engines that I'm doing some prototype race parts development for currently.


I've seen some wild ones, and the bore spacing and 460 head use is why I mentioned them. Making an inline six from a couple of the blocks should be a reasonable undertaking, in the relative sense. And cheap-ish, besides the billet crank, unless another I-6 behemoth is close enough on specs to modify.

I worked at Batten near the end and got to experience the beauty of big billet engine bits, and the economic insatiability of same.

Roller cams and some girdling of the mains and decks should make the Mercruiser strong.

Tough to top the Bamber, I'd suspect, for max-effort inliner?
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #30 by CNC-Dude » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 am

Roller cam blanks and main hurdles are at the top of my list of what a few guys are wanting me to make for them.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #31 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:52 am

A much better choice than the Mercruiser block is the Mopar aluminum midget blocks. Peto and Mudge built a Comp Eliminator inliner from 3-and-a-half cylinders out of one and two-and-a-half cylinders out of t'other. With very little on-track drag strip time they got it in the sevens before John passed away. I think Rick Mudge still kept the engine, and if he is in a bargaining mood you just might save yourself ten or twenty grand if you can pry it loose from him vs building a copy.
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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #32 by 54-4x4 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:16 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A much better choice than the Mercruiser block is the Mopar aluminum midget blocks. Peto and Mudge built a Comp Eliminator inliner from 3-and-a-half cylinders out of one and two-and-a-half cylinders out of t'other. With very little on-track drag strip time they got it in the sevens before John passed away. I think Rick Mudge still kept the engine, and if he is in a bargaining mood you just might save yourself ten or twenty grand if you can pry it loose from him vs building a copy.

Any idea what bore and stroke or the cubic inches of the above engine?

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #33 by Firepower354 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:52 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A much better choice than the Mercruiser block is the Mopar aluminum midget blocks. Peto and Mudge built a Comp Eliminator inliner from 3-and-a-half cylinders out of one and two-and-a-half cylinders out of t'other. With very little on-track drag strip time they got it in the sevens before John passed away. I think Rick Mudge still kept the engine, and if he is in a bargaining mood you just might save yourself ten or twenty grand if you can pry it loose from him vs building a copy.



That was/is a work of art, and for the purpose, may meet the "much better" level, but the extra half inch bore centers and economical 3.7 blocks and BBF heads, the far larger tugboat-based job would still be a good time.
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #34 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:59 pm

I've been looking at this for awhile as well. It will require major money to do and would only be useful for a handful of people. But still an interesting what if.
If enough money became available, my personal version of this exercise would be a 6 based on the 4.9 bore space 460, more specifically the Boss 429, as the cylinder head would be that style. I do believe Dave Bamber has a version of that head for SS pulling. I'd even have the bore/stroke numbers to give me 429 cubic inches. Billet block and head, 7-60mm roller bearings for the camshaft (roller cam obviously, 1.1" lift capable) ,cam belt drive with the distributor and dry sump oil pump running off of the front.
Twin turbos on methanol capable of 2500-3000 HP would make a beautiful sound!

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #35 by hairyclive » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:08 pm

"I still would like to hear from Hairyclive and find out for sure what the thinking is here." pmuller

the original Idea was to maximize available bore space in the stock block casting
that is why I was talking about making 5" holes on 4.9" bore centres and installing siamesed liners to make the bore size of the block more flexible 5" liners for diesels come in 4.3 to about 4.6 internal bore size, custom made sizes are all over the place.

so using a good 240 block, even one with "non repairable bores", a bunch of cylinder liners from a diesel that are worn out of spec,
some out of spec racing pistons from a large BB ( any kind ), a few blowed up heads that can be sectioned and welded together,
some decent used rods, and maybe an out of spec diesel crank as a core to machine on (perkins 6.354 forged crank is about the same length as 240/300, has windsor size mains on some versions (2.998" 1.5 " wide), and 5" stroke with 2.5" rod bearings, might be possible to machine one to fit but cant find anywhere online with real specs might have to go to a shop and measure one.

RPM limit would probably be 6500 because of mass unless the deck was raised or the crank hung below like I described earlier
and really long rode used

4.7" bore and 5" stroke is 520 CU in.
5.25 stroke ( may not be possible) but would net 545"
would need heads that flow enough to feed a 730 " BB

clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:37 pm

Hi Clive Thanks for your reply.

Here is where you have everyone including me scratching our heads.

If you take six 5.00" sleeves in a row on 4.9" centers the total length of the row of sleeves is 29.4" (29.5" if you leave the end sleeves round on the outside)
The 240/300 block is 28.56" long to the outside faces. The bore centers are only 4.48". with very little variation.

How do you fit 29.4" of sleeves in a block that is 28.56" long?

Second Question:
The crankshaft rod journals are only 4.480" apart so how would the connecting rods that are 4.48" apart line up in cylinders that are 4.9" apart?
The two end connecting rods would be .87" off the center of the cylinder.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #37 by hairyclive » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:56 pm

--- by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:37 pm
Hi Clive Thanks for your reply.

Here is where you have everyone including me scratching their heads.

If you take six 5.00" sleeves in a row on 4.9" centers the total sleeve length is 29.4" (29.5" if you leave the end sleeves round on the outside)
The 240/300 block is only about 29" long to the outside walls. The bore centers are only 4.48". with very little variation.

How do you fit 29.4" of sleeves in a block that is 29" long?

Second Question:
The crankshaft rod journals are only 4.480" apart so how would the connecting rods that are 4.48" apart line up in cylinders that are 4.9" apart?
The two end connecting rods would be .87" off the center of the cylinder. ----


Hi PM
I wasn't anywhere near an engine when I started this calc and the only info I could find online was a head for sale listed
as 29.4" long it may not have been accurate.

It would be a good idea for someone to post in the tech info a drawing with all the block and head measurements
maybe also sonic check results and a picture of a cut apart/damaged block to give dimensions for the engine
there seems to be no complete dimensions anywhere online for these

If the length I got was wrong to start with I spent a lot of time calculating based on input errors

6 x 5" sleeves is 30" 6 sleeves with .100 off 2 sides are 28.8 " long when siamesed (29 if you leave the ends round)
this is what I based the bore on the above left me an
it is actually 4.8 spacing using a 4.9-5" sleeve I was thinking of originally

4.7" bore in a 4.8" center leaves lots of meat in the bores when starting with a 5 or even 4.9" sleeve
4.7-4.9" center are used on many different V8s Gm, Mopar, Ford, others as well
I may have used the wrong number someplace when I started this all based on a wrong length for the head/block

having the pitons offset to the crank is common in many of these style builds though not usually more than .300
I have seen pistons made like this with the pin bosses off set to one side of the rod

having the crank throws machined in the required place when custom building is not a problem
as long a the block is not an interference problem
I worked at a place once where we made a stroker from a 500 Cad crank (they are steel) , Mits 2.6 rods (from the terrible Hemi 4)
and a 460 block, think it was about 570 cubes when finished

I calculated based on using #3 as the bore center intersect to the stock bore
to move the siamese stack towards the rear of the engine leaving more space at the front for the water passages
the rear would be farther off centers to the original than the front
that shouldn't be a problem as the rear of the block has more meat because of the BH mount

I should draw and label this on paper after I visit a shop to measure an engine somewhere.

I was looking at perkins 6.354 cranks as a possible machining blank
they have 2.999 mains (windsor size) x 1.5" wide and 2.5 rod journals at 5" stroke and 33" end to end from what I found online
could be a possible good crank blank
haven't got one to measure

the original idea was to possibly use:
broken beyond simple repair 240 block
some out of spec BB pistons
beyond spec sleeves and diesel crank
and a bunch of damaged beyond repair BB heads to section and weld together
to build a 400" + stroker with minimal cost except for machining and time invested
pretty much all that is listed above could be bought at scrap price or scavenged

It might be possible with the correct collection of discard parts to do this fairly cheaply.
I need to find an industrial engine rebuilder and go spend a few hours groping over parts to see what might work

otherwise fabrication of a complete engine from welded components might be easier

that article about the head the guy cast as tops and bottoms is interesting
that would allow the same comb chamber to be used and different cam layouts
(in block, SOHC, DOHC)

Clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #38 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:31 pm

Clive
That is a much better picture of what you want to do.

Starting at post#7 you will find a lot of spec info on the 240/300 engines.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79408
I can add the block length from face to face is 28.52"

Keep us posted as you investigate this project.

Any other specs or dimensions you need just ask and we will do our best to get them.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #39 by hairyclive » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:54 pm

by swiss cheesing the block
offsetting the bores and using some diesel wet sleeves machined and siamesed it might be possible to go up to a 4.7" bore.
and leaving .200 walls
offset boring across the block could make the thrust side thicker than the coast side
leaving about .250 thrust .200 sides and .150 on the coast side
----------------------

OK
using the number you gave at 28.5 deck length
it looks like the same process I described would be able to make the block with 4.63 (same as FE) bore centers
4.63 bore centers adds .75" to the length of the piston separation from #1 to #6
this should be possible on a stock style crank

allowing 4.5" bores (lots of catalog pistons here) with .180 in the siamese walls and leaving .200 on the end cylinders
makes the length of the siamese unit 28.3"
pretty tight stretch leaving the block almost separated at the top after boring
but was looking at possibly installing some spliced tunnel port heads they seem to be easy to find

I started with a 5" sleeve to cut down to allow a desaxe style engine with the bores offset towards the crank rotation across the deck,
(reduced piston loads and frees up power)

but the only way to do this to excess would be use a reverse rotation cam (there may be one in the marine catalogs)
as the cam is on the wrong side of the engine to allow much offset

*** or remove the cam entirely and use a few blown up SOHC 427 heads to make a SOHC HEMI 6 ***
( and lots more problems, finding, welding, line boring, custom cam, etc. or maybe talk to Dove Eng, or Coons or another about a
custom casting and a lot of money changing hands )
there might even be a market for a conversion kit if enough were made to make the price decent

with 4.5" bores and a 4.5" crank that gives 429 cu in (5" gives 477)
at 6500 rpm this would need about 1000 CFM airflow with decent heads and ports in the 350-450 CFM range
and maybe 6-700 HP if the parts stay together
would be in interesting visual and audio symphony
and an entirely efficient way to spend a hundred or so hours of machining and assembly time

would be really cool with FI, (anyone know if Holley has a computer yet that can run 3 x 2 bbl injector bodies), Webers, Dellotos,
or maybe a couple of Autolite Inline carbs http://www.inlinecarb.com/
(maybe a pair that have a damaged barrel on one end could be found cheap)

If I had access to a shop now and a pile of unallocated cash I am really tempted to try this out

clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #40 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:00 pm

Here is one of the 3x2 TBI systems.
https://fitechefi.com/products/39610/

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #41 by 54-4x4 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:10 pm

That would be pretty cool,a 4.5"x4.5" bore and stroke 429-6.
If you go for for it I will be watching your build.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #42 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:26 am

You should use at least a 7.0" long connecting rod in which case the block deck would need to be extended.
You could consider oven brazing a new block deck to the old deck that has the correct head bolt hole locations and water holes.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #43 by hairyclive » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:13 pm

https://www.voxeljet.com/branchen/cases ... -legenden/

Interesting idea for custom cylinder head production
clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #44 by Max_Effort » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:21 pm

hairyclive wrote:https://www.voxeljet.com/branchen/cases/zylinderkopf-rekonstruktion-fuer-porsche-legenden/

Interesting idea for custom cylinder head production
clive


Hoosier Pattern makes 3D printed sand molds. Good for a short run of castings.

https://hoosierpattern.com/news/3d-sand ... al-tooling

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #45 by 54-4x4 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:15 pm

I suppose with the ability to copy an actual head or block etc. it might be possible to mix and match various designs and place the best combustion chambers, ports,valve angles,headbolt locations,cylinder bore centers,cam locations,main bolt girddles , etc. into one head and block to work in harmony if the operator really knows his way around that kind of equipment.Then you would miss out on all the fun of making it yourself.

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #46 by hairyclive » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:21 pm

I suppose with the ability to copy an actual head or block etc. it might be possible to mix and match various designs and place the best combustion chambers, ports,valve angles,headbolt locations,cylinder bore centers,cam locations,main bolt girddles , etc. into one head and block to work in harmony if the operator really knows his way around that kind of equipment.Then you would miss out on all the fun of making it yourself.

yes you miss a lot of the fun, save $1000s and a lot of time
but you would have the best tech in the newest config
better efficiency, power, performance etc.


BTW : basic rule of equipment design in all cases:
the specs are only "best" if they are properly matched to the intended application
therefore perfect specs are not if the application is changed without design upgrades
clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #47 by 54-4x4 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:12 pm

hairyclive,have you made any progress on your engine design project?

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #48 by hairyclive » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:34 pm

54-4x4 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:12 pm

hairyclive,have you made any progress on your engine design project?


I have been a little sidetracked by some other stuff, like life getting in the way
I spent a while looking at large v twin motorcycle heads as a possible cut and paste structure found a couple in this list:
https://www.drivespark.com/off-beat/top ... 09126.html

more interesting things
sometimes you can spend a lot of time in research and still not find out exactly what you looks for
clive

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #49 by hairyclive » Mon May 06, 2019 6:55 pm

found interesting table of port comparisons for many heads
includes several aftermarket as well
this guy has some other good stuff at his site too

clive
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm

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Re: Has anyone ever built something like this?

Post #50 by hairyclive » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:08 pm

Found this while looking around
all kinds of info for head conversions
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... 478/page-2

clive

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