Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

bubba22349":2aelzdfe said:
:unsure: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:
Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl
 
wsa111":82ul2o2u said:
The NGK 7510 is an iridium center electrode plug. They are excellent for a NA engine.
They do not tolerate detonation. The center electrode if broken off is not friendly to piston crowns.
Till you get everything straightened out you may just want to use Autolite 45's & gap them at .045"-.048"
You need to run a compression check to see if you broke a top ring or damaged a ring land.
I just tried the tester but i csnt tighten it. the nut part of it is way to low into the head. I have to look at getting an extension.

I had an old pair of the same NGKs sitting on the shelf and put them in. The car runs a lot smoother and the pinging definitely went away when i floor it. I'll look at getting a new pair of autolites though, they're cheap lol. I checked them after 5 mins of beating on them and they dont have that weird crusty look from the old ones. I'll check again after i get on the highway.

Honestly here, I'm very tempted to go back to my Holley 1904 off a 1953 215 l6. I just need a driver until i get outta school, then i can afford to screw with jets and this carb has a lot of possible adjustments. Its really intimidating. Or do you think i should just get a 1.08 2bbl autolite and run that? Since that is kinda what i plan on having when i put my 1980 head on
 
Like X mentioned, if you are getting oil in the cylinders that can lead to detonation.
 
xctasy":2fwo5xd8 said:
Blow by and oil dilution of the air fuel mix, and things like timing chain wear which are common to our small sixes will alter your warming up tune, and you'll see that on your air fuel gauge if you do 5 minute verses 15 minute light off air fuel tests over the same territory. Nothing you can do to the jets, air correctors and e tubes will help much with that.

Bill and I like to do a cold cranking compression test, and an 8 hour or 24 hour static leak down test to baseline the internals are ok.

Then check that the vacuum advance is stable and the static advance is not hanging up, and is suited to the engine tune. Even re-routing the vacuum line can make massive change in how you set up the curb idle and lean cruise and transitions.


Once you got uniform, repeatable advance figures, and you know the cylinders are holding an 80% leak down, and as long as the cold cranking comps between cylinders are stable within +/- 15% (that covers your lifter preload or clearance, cam condition), then you can have fun base-lining your tune safely without going on a wild goose hunt.

The basic work you've done is fine. Plug reading teed into your wide band will tell you more about engine condition.

Enjoy getting to know how your engine ticks. I'm not a wide band guy, I like the basics, because a wide band is a seriously sharp piece of kit that needs a lot of brain in the head verses Seat of the Pants "Rectal Checks". Going to a wide band normally takes your

1. tingling palms,

2. 4500-5200 Hz hearing where the start of audible knock happens, and

3. butt-o-meter off the feeling of lean miss-fire and transitional responses. These happen in moderate grades, where and engine labors, and you can tune for elapsed times between station points.

Your five senses need to be tuned into how the combustion process works, and Color Tune, Narrow Band, and Plug readings at wide open throttle on cut ignition teach you a lot more than a Wide Band used first.

You have to spend much more time, and a wide band forces you to work at depth. I worry about safety in that enviroment, but a cell phone is no different.

The 6th sense for tuning is putting all the the things together. A wide band won't hurt ultimately, but your suddenly a NASA technician now Ryan.

Old car tuners were forced to take a step back. A wide band forces you to analyse the charts, and that takes your eyes off a vibrating hood, a harmonic tap that your ass or feet feel, or the kangaroo hop and pig rooting an engine exhibits. When my teacher, hot off the Ford Service Technican courses, had me setting up engines, it was always exhaust gas Co's, and then a quick test run, and revise. He'd tell me about what a lean missfire is, and how you checked your mean best torque ignition setting.

I'm not against a Wide Band. It just forces you to stop flying the engine tune by the seat of your pants. I'm sure Bob Wallace (Kiwi guy who de-tuned the 400 hp at 9000 rpm LP350 engine to a 320 at 7500 rpm road car engine at Lamborghini), I'll be he used a Wide Band, but I'll bet when he sanitized a V12 engine tune, he used all his senses, and worked from Ignition, Plugs, and then Weber tune basic, then when he had it in ballpark, a quick O2 sensor up the exhaust on a rolling road. Or a 170 mph smash over the Alps to France....


Anyway, Your in the Big Time, and listen to Bill and others that have had a go with a Wide Band. Its a wild ride!
I don't have it hooked up to a computer yet. I've just been running it with a camera like what I've been posting.

And don't get me wrong, i still try to tune it by how the car feels, i hear every little tick, rattle, and feel every vibration that car makes, it kinda drives me crazy lol. I've been tuning the idle by having my hand on the fender and feeling the vibration.

I do need to get a T valve for the vacuum so i can run both the pcv and the gauge. Last i checked, i had about 21 inches of Hg, which i thought was great but i haven't checked that since i started in the with wideband.

Thanks for your input man, I do like playing with it, just need more time and money lol
 
Econoline":1lwvnby5 said:
Like X mentioned, if you are getting oil in the cylinders that can lead to detonation.
It can't be leaking that much, i don't have to top off my oil or anything. The oil residue doesn't look that bad, but I'll check with the new plugs after a bit to see whats happening.
 
StarDiero75":2600kupn said:
bubba22349":2600kupn said:
:unsure: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:
Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl

I had an old 250 like that, it ran very well with a fresh set of plugs for about 2000 to 3000 miles then would start missing pull the plugs they would be full of crud like yours. Valve guides were worn out, Good luck (y) :nod:
 
bubba22349":2dei724f said:
StarDiero75":2dei724f said:
bubba22349":2dei724f said:
:unsure: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:
Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl

I had an old 250 like that, it ran very well with a fresh set of plugs for about 2000 to 3000 miles then would start missing pull the plugs they would be full of crud like yours. Valve guides were worn out, Good luck (y) :nod:
Hopefully i can get mine in soon and check the cylinder pressures. Would worn guides affect the numbers? I'd think they would
 
Not always, a compression test can still show good numbers with worn valve guides. The recommended clearances of the valve stem to guide isn't very much. When the valve guides do get to a serverly worn state then yes it will show up in a compression test. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
StarDiero75":1sveshg9 said:
Howdy guys,

So with my Weber 32/36 I've noticed once the car gets to operating temp, it seems to have a lot less power than when its warming up. So my guess is that my jet sizes are a little small.

So my question here is, if i know what the jet sizes are for the 2.8 Cologne V6, can i use that to calculate what my jet sizes should be for my 200 using proportions? Or since i have a SOC L4 5200, can i use that to find proportionally what it should be?

If so, does anyone know what the Cologne V6 Holley 5200 jet sizes are?

Thanks a lot,
Ryan


Copying a 5200 is fine, but the main and secondary jets are swapped, and the well tubes are US profiled after 1974.

And there are 34 different kinds of Holley Weber to copy from, with differing CFM ratings. The 32/36 is only one size, IIRC, 25 mm Pri /27mm Sec


MissinginActionHolleyWeber52xxto65xxListandMakersPN.jpg
 
I have read this thread more times than I can count. It has a bunch of information that is applicable to me and my current build, and covers a variety of topics: Weber 32/36 (Holley 5200) jetting/tuning, Tuning with wideband O2 sensor, timing curve (an HEI was what the OP was using), and Spark plug recommendations. This is great stuff for someone just starting their upgrade (Weber/Holley carb specific).

I thought I would consolidate some of the more useful stuff into one comment on this post...

From Powerband:
"I posted previously that I obtained a brand new - old stock 5200 spec'ed for use by a 170CID (Capri 2.8 V6). I received it today and opened it up to see what what size jets it has.

Primary / Secondary
Idle Jets - 65 / 50

Air Bleeds - 190 / 180

Mains - 171 / 477 (Yes that's right 477) I guaged the 477 to @ .071" (that's 1.80... in mm)
from @2010 post:
I run the Holley / Weber version of the 32/36 progressive on a big log head through $14 - 2X1 adapter. The 5200 was offered by many manufacturers in many cars and many versions like the Weber... (@185-250CFM) , ( '63 Falcon waggin / 71-170 / T5-3.50 rear)

A clean "rebuilt" 5200 of questionable origin ran with typical off-idle bog. No difference with bigger or smaller jets. Found an Ebay carb - dirty/as used Capri 2.8 liter (170cid) spec 5200 and 170 ran great as-is dirty and all. I swapped in the jets to clean ‘bog’ carb and still ran like crap, I then put ‘bog’-carb jets in 2.8 spec 5200 and it ran with no bog at all.

(Twelve years in 2018) … Five years later 170 still runs great... Smooth consistent idle, economical (primary Bbl) light cruise performance and decent interstate ramp 2Bbl max-CFM performance.
> my 170 has stock bottom end/cam but big valve head work running @ 10:1 CR with decent mileage (on 93 octane) .. > Direct mount mod is a great performance option, but for MPG/daily driver, probably a simple 2X1 adapter is viable option ."


From WSA111 (Bill):
"You can't tune the engines on stands
First try to get a smooth idle with the idle screws close to 13-13.5.
Second you cruise @ 60 mph area & achieve an A/F reading of close to 14.7. This would be the main jet size.
Third cruise around the neighborhood 15-20 mph & shoot for an A/F 13.5-14.25 area. If too rich you need a smaller idle jet.
Fourth take it out & start from a stop all the way up to 80-100 mph if you can do it safely @ WOT & go for an A/F 12.5-13.1.
This is controlled by the jet or orifice under the power valve on a Holley or Autolite. The small end of the metering rod if it has one.
If you are doing a 4 barrel block the secondaries so they wont open & do all of the above, except WOT limit at 4000 rpms.
Then let the secondaries open & adjust the secondary jet @ WOT 80-100 mph & again go for 12.5-13.1
Even running a K & N air filter it can richen the mixture .2-.3 @ WOT.
I installed a brand new AC Delco on my engine & even at idle the A/F richened by .5
What i am saying the K & N is the only AF i know that has the least restriction.
Be advised that a lean mixture & high air temperature can promote detonation.
A rich mixture can tolerate more advance & loves cold weather."

"The NGK 7510 is an iridium center electrode plug. They are excellent for a NA engine.
They do not tolerate detonation. The center electrode if broken off is not friendly to piston crowns.
Till you get everything straightened out you may just want to use Autolite 45's & gap them at .045"-.048"
You need to run a compression check to see if you broke a top ring or damaged a ring land."

From Econoline:
"Assuming you aren't running it lean, you need to look at your mech advance. Or total advance. If you can get your hands on a dial back timing light get it and see where you're at. I fought an annoying pinging problem forever and ultimately found I was putting 42 degrees in pretty quick(by 2-22K) plus whatever the vacuum advance still wanted. I'm running hi grade w/ 9.6:1 compression in a 250 at sea level. Your 200 shouldn't be pinging. The stock setup in my distributor was a 15L on the small weight. That put me at 30 degrees all in, add 12 degrees initial, plus whatever vacuum is available and you can imagine it may hit 50 degrees or more. The vacuum advance can put in as much as 17-18 degrees or more full tilt. I welded the weight and then filed it to a 13L, ie. 26 degrees, and it fixed all my problems with pinging. I had the vac diaphragm turned to full delay to try and help, but have backed that all the way off as well. I also had drilled and threaded a hole for a long set screw to catch the slot on the arm and limit the vac advance to <11."

Useful links:
Weber tuning- http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/adjust.htm
HEI curve kit- https://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-8428 ... 04184.html
Wideband tuning (via jalopyjournal)- https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... e.1105050/

Thank you to StarDiero75 aka Ryan (although he's moved on significantly from this stuff) and the rest of the contributors. You have been a big help to me.

-Shawn
 
65_Stang_170":3shzyh8f said:
I have read this thread more times than I can count. It has a bunch of information that is applicable to me and my current build, and covers a variety of topics: Weber 32/36 (Holley 5200) jetting/tuning, Tuning with wideband O2 sensor, timing curve (an HEI was what the OP was using), and Spark plug recommendations. This is great stuff for someone just starting their upgrade (Weber/Holley carb specific).

I thought I would consolidate some of the more useful stuff into one comment on this post...

From Powerband:
"I posted previously that I obtained a brand new - old stock 5200 spec'ed for use by a 170CID (Capri 2.8 V6). I received it today and opened it up to see what what size jets it has.

Primary / Secondary
Idle Jets - 65 / 50

Air Bleeds - 190 / 180

Mains - 171 / 477 (Yes that's right 477) I guaged the 477 to @ .071" (that's 1.80... in mm)
from @2010 post:
I run the Holley / Weber version of the 32/36 progressive on a big log head through $14 - 2X1 adapter. The 5200 was offered by many manufacturers in many cars and many versions like the Weber... (@185-250CFM) , ( '63 Falcon waggin / 71-170 / T5-3.50 rear)

A clean "rebuilt" 5200 of questionable origin ran with typical off-idle bog. No difference with bigger or smaller jets. Found an Ebay carb - dirty/as used Capri 2.8 liter (170cid) spec 5200 and 170 ran great as-is dirty and all. I swapped in the jets to clean ‘bog’ carb and still ran like crap, I then put ‘bog’-carb jets in 2.8 spec 5200 and it ran with no bog at all.

(Twelve years in 2018) … Five years later 170 still runs great... Smooth consistent idle, economical (primary Bbl) light cruise performance and decent interstate ramp 2Bbl max-CFM performance.
> my 170 has stock bottom end/cam but big valve head work running @ 10:1 CR with decent mileage (on 93 octane) .. > Direct mount mod is a great performance option, but for MPG/daily driver, probably a simple 2X1 adapter is viable option ."


From WSA111 (Bill):
"You can't tune the engines on stands
First try to get a smooth idle with the idle screws close to 13-13.5.
Second you cruise @ 60 mph area & achieve an A/F reading of close to 14.7. This would be the main jet size.
Third cruise around the neighborhood 15-20 mph & shoot for an A/F 13.5-14.25 area. If too rich you need a smaller idle jet.
Fourth take it out & start from a stop all the way up to 80-100 mph if you can do it safely @ WOT & go for an A/F 12.5-13.1.
This is controlled by the jet or orifice under the power valve on a Holley or Autolite. The small end of the metering rod if it has one.
If you are doing a 4 barrel block the secondaries so they wont open & do all of the above, except WOT limit at 4000 rpms.
Then let the secondaries open & adjust the secondary jet @ WOT 80-100 mph & again go for 12.5-13.1
Even running a K & N air filter it can richen the mixture .2-.3 @ WOT.
I installed a brand new AC Delco on my engine & even at idle the A/F richened by .5
What i am saying the K & N is the only AF i know that has the least restriction.
Be advised that a lean mixture & high air temperature can promote detonation.
A rich mixture can tolerate more advance & loves cold weather."

"The NGK 7510 is an iridium center electrode plug. They are excellent for a NA engine.
They do not tolerate detonation. The center electrode if broken off is not friendly to piston crowns.
Till you get everything straightened out you may just want to use Autolite 45's & gap them at .045"-.048"
You need to run a compression check to see if you broke a top ring or damaged a ring land."

From Econoline:
"Assuming you aren't running it lean, you need to look at your mech advance. Or total advance. If you can get your hands on a dial back timing light get it and see where you're at. I fought an annoying pinging problem forever and ultimately found I was putting 42 degrees in pretty quick(by 2-22K) plus whatever the vacuum advance still wanted. I'm running hi grade w/ 9.6:1 compression in a 250 at sea level. Your 200 shouldn't be pinging. The stock setup in my distributor was a 15L on the small weight. That put me at 30 degrees all in, add 12 degrees initial, plus whatever vacuum is available and you can imagine it may hit 50 degrees or more. The vacuum advance can put in as much as 17-18 degrees or more full tilt. I welded the weight and then filed it to a 13L, ie. 26 degrees, and it fixed all my problems with pinging. I had the vac diaphragm turned to full delay to try and help, but have backed that all the way off as well. I also had drilled and threaded a hole for a long set screw to catch the slot on the arm and limit the vac advance to <11."

Useful links:
Weber tuning- http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/adjust.htm
HEI curve kit- https://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-8428 ... 04184.html
Wideband tuning (via jalopyjournal)- https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... e.1105050/

Thank you to StarDiero75 aka Ryan (although he's moved on significantly from this stuff) and the rest of the contributors. You have been a big help to me.

-Shawn
Wow its been awhile since this. You're welcome man. I'm on the Autolite 2100 now and I've noticed it works much better and is much less finicky. if you get the opportunity, go to a 2V head. It will change everything.
 
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