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Got the motor out....

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68Flareside240
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Got the motor out....

Post #1 by 68Flareside240 » Mon May 20, 2019 4:47 pm

Well only took a few months but I finally parked the truck and got the motor out. Disassembly was pretty much uneventful, once I had made 37 trips inside to my toolbox. Took me the better part of a day working by myself and labeling and bagging everything. Pistons badly carbon caked, looks like number 4 and number 6 took the brunt of it. Number 4 piston was burned, number 6 not quite as bad. Cylinders look really good to the naked eye. I couldn't find my puller to get the balancer off so haven't got the bottom end apart just yet. More (and better) pics to follow.

Image
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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #2 by sandboxer » Mon May 20, 2019 10:51 pm

Any idea why 4 and 6 were so lean? 1 looks wet...

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68Flareside240
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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #3 by 68Flareside240 » Mon May 20, 2019 11:15 pm

One was wet. Had oil leaking from behind the exhaust valve what I could tell. No idea about four other than maybe losing compression. Deposits everywhere, even visibly holding the intake valve open. Lots more pictures I will post tomorrow. But if anyone can tell me about the rods going from the plugs (literally rods off the plugs) going into the exhaust port on this head I’d love to know. That’s a new one on me. I will also post pictures of that.

The block casting is 8C25. Head is 8C22. Truck date code is late April 68 so makes sense. I’ll get more pics up when I get to the office tomorrow.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #4 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 am

Yeah those 4/6 exhaust valves look burnt, did you do a compression test before you pulled the head? Maybe the cam lobes are worn, causing less valve lift, possible not drawing enough a/f mix into those cylinders? I don’t know, but usually 3/4 are the richest on the carbed heads I’ve pulled, with 1/6 looking slightly leaner, but certainly not white exhaust valve lean...

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #5 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue May 21, 2019 10:26 am

68Flareside240 wrote:One was wet. Had oil leaking from behind the exhaust valve what I could tell. No idea about four other than maybe losing compression. Deposits everywhere, even visibly holding the intake valve open. Lots more pictures I will post tomorrow. But if anyone can tell me about the rods going from the plugs (literally rods off the plugs) going into the exhaust port on this head I’d love to know. That’s a new one on me. I will also post pictures of that.

The block casting is 8C25. Head is 8C22. Truck date code is late April 68 so makes sense. I’ll get more pics up when I get to the office tomorrow.


The air injection system pumped fresh air into the exhaust ports to help light off the catalytic converter, those rods may be the air tubes, if that’s what your talking about, but you don’t have a picture so again I’m not sure...

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #6 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:04 am

Well, I believe I found the culprit on 4 and 6. The porcelain insulator on the plugs was cracked, leaving visible carbon tracking as the spark leaked out to ground on the head and not through the plug. When I touched the insulator, it fell off.
Here's the plug for 4. 6 was not near as bad.
Image
Head on 4
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Piston on 4. I was told one piston was replaced. I assume this is it. The STD give evidence to the notion the block has never been out of the truck.
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Cylinder wall on 4
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Casting Number of 8C25 makes sense for original motor. Truck was built late April, 1968. Head date code was 8C22.
Image
These are the "rods" coming off of the plugs going into the exhaust port. They're in every port, some eroded worse than others.They are extensions off of the six square headed plugs on the manifold side
Image
Image
Various pictures
Image
Image

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68Flareside240
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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #7 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:05 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:Yeah those 4/6 exhaust valves look burnt, did you do a compression test before you pulled the head? Maybe the cam lobes are worn, causing less valve lift, possible not drawing enough a/f mix into those cylinders? I don’t know, but usually 3/4 are the richest on the carbed heads I’ve pulled, with 1/6 looking slightly leaner, but certainly not white exhaust valve lean...


Compression was down across the board. I was initially a little taken aback as I figured 3 and 4 would be the most rich due to position of the carb, but think I figured out the cause as stated.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:45 pm

It looks like you have the RARE heavy duty timing gear set.
How many teeth are on the crank and cam gear?

You also have the good connecting rods that do not have the oil spit hole in the big end.
This engine is a good candidate to make a street screamer.

The tubes in the ports were from the smog pump.
You can get plugs for the holes once the tubes are removed.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #9 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:58 pm

I am not sure about the timing gear. I was wondering about it as it did not appear to be phenolic. Here is a better picture of the gear set.
Sorry its upside down.

Edit : the 2752 appears to be an obsolete Sealed Power number, assume it was replaced when the rest of the work was done.
Image

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #10 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 4:31 pm

I have a date tomorrow morning with a machine shop. I think I called 5 shops before I found someone who was interested in talking to me about my project before saying "we don't do that" , "race engines only" etc. Taking it all over tomorrow to check out and mic and talk about what I want out of it.

My goal for this motor is to build a good street motor. No towing to speak of (12' jon boat), just driving. My plan so far (please feel free to give me any advice) is to keep bottom end stock (new bearings & pistons), get the head worked and the other rocker studs tapped, and keeping the chevy rockers. Intake will most likely be a Offy C with a small 4V or 2V, and headers. My question is cam. There is a ton of info and cams out there and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around it all and how it fits what I want to do. I guess what I want is mild performance to match intake and exhaust, but not run into issues using the chevy rockers (I am willing to go back to stock if necessary) and having to change too terribly much with valvetrain. If I am going to need to do things like stiffer springs etc, I want to know to do it from the start and not have to backtrack too much. There is really no rush on getting it built, as there is a lot I need to do to the truck before I am ready to replace the motor. Thanks for all the help, the more I learn about these engines the more questions I have.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #11 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue May 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Judging by the looks of the crosshatch pattern it looks like somebody re-ringed it and used a dingle-berry ball hone. The pattern does not look factory.

Fine tooth metal gears were used for a number of years in production and should be still available; a good upgrade from phenolic and anything that uses a knock sensor.

I'll let pmuller recommend a cam brand. I'd go with something in the 280* / .500" lift range with 1.94 intake valves.
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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #12 by 68Flareside240 » Tue May 21, 2019 5:15 pm

Yes the motor had a ring job when the head was worked. Based on the assumption the block never came out, I would assume the dingle berry hone (never heard that term but like it) was used. Will be pulling the pistons and crank tonight, more pictures on the way.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #13 by Mdixon300f100 » Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 pm

That’s the same timing gear set that was in my 240...

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #14 by 68Flareside240 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:57 pm

Had minor health emergency last night, so couldn’t get the motor apart until this morning. Rod bearings were all good except for 4 and 6. They were wiped pretty good down to the copper in a few locales. I’ve got a pretty idea as to why.... but I’ll see if someone can guess it first(Hint:motor was reringed in the truck by someone who probably didn’t know what they were doing). Main journals were all pristine, slight wear on the the thrust bearing surface but other than that they were great. Crank and all looked really good as well. Try to get some pictures up when I can.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:48 pm

The rods should have C5AE on the lower part of the beam.
Those rods used the Ford 289/302 V8 pistons.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #16 by 68Flareside240 » Wed May 22, 2019 3:43 pm

Pmuller I could be wrong but I’m 99% sure they were C6AE. All pistons were 4valve relieved as seen. I know the later ones have more limited piston choice. Are there any pistons I should look at or just go back with stock 289/302?

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:21 pm

68Flareside240 wrote: Are there any pistons I should look at or just go back with stock 289/302?

Use a Hypereutectic aluminum piston.
Measure the block deck height after it has had a cleanup cut taken off of it so you can determine the piston pin compression height.
Pistons come in several pin heights from 1.585" to 1.608".

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Wed May 22, 2019 11:11 pm

[quote="68Flareside240"]Well, I believe I found the culprit on 4 and 6. The porcelain insulator on the plugs was cracked, leaving visible carbon tracking as the spark leaked out to ground on the head and not through the plug. When I touched the insulator, it fell off.
Here's the plug for 4. 6 was not near as bad.
Image
Head on 4
Image


:hmmm: To late but with a set of fresh spark plugs it would have probably still run fairly good! That is really excellent that it's still a standard bore this should be a great block to rebuild. :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #19 by 68Flareside240 » Thu May 23, 2019 2:08 am

That’s the thing, this motor ran smooth as silk, other than ring issues, which I now assume to be due to a very poor ring job. The head job didn’t help a bit either. But it ran great. I’ve got a strong feeling I’m going to be blown away when I finish this truck. It’s been a heck of a ride so far.

Had a great conversation with the machinist at the shop....... he glowed over the 240 he had in a 70 f100. I think I found the right machine shop despite my best efforts.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #20 by Max_Effort » Thu May 23, 2019 8:00 am

68Flareside240 wrote:I have a date tomorrow morning with a machine shop. I think I called 5 shops before I found someone who was interested in talking to me about my project before saying "we don't do that" , "race engines only" etc. Taking it all over tomorrow to check out and mic and talk about what I want out of it.

My goal for this motor is to build a good street motor. No towing to speak of (12' jon boat), just driving. My plan so far (please feel free to give me any advice) is to keep bottom end stock (new bearings & pistons), get the head worked and the other rocker studs tapped, and keeping the chevy rockers. Intake will most likely be a Offy C with a small 4V or 2V, and headers. My question is cam. There is a ton of info and cams out there and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around it all and how it fits what I want to do. I guess what I want is mild performance to match intake and exhaust, but not run into issues using the chevy rockers (I am willing to go back to stock if necessary) and having to change too terribly much with valvetrain. If I am going to need to do things like stiffer springs etc, I want to know to do it from the start and not have to backtrack too much. There is really no rush on getting it built, as there is a lot I need to do to the truck before I am ready to replace the motor. Thanks for all the help, the more I learn about these engines the more questions I have.


The biggest improvement and "bang for the buck"
Is going to be a 300 rotating assembly (crank, rods and pistons), in your vintage block. 60 cubes is a big increase.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #21 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu May 23, 2019 9:16 am

68Flareside240 wrote:...this motor ran smooth as silk, other than ring issues, which I now assume to be due to a very poor ring job. The head job didn’t help a bit either. But it ran great. I’ve got a strong feeling I’m going to be blown away when I finish this truck. It’s been a heck of a ride so far.
...

Yup. The hone job looked like the operator didn't know / understand the importance of honing correctly.

You ARE going to get it bored, not just use the existing bore? Those ledges at the top of the existing bores will tear up a new set of rings in no time if installed on the existing bore.
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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #22 by 68Flareside240 » Thu May 23, 2019 10:02 am

Image

Here is the rod on 6:
Image

Number 4:
Image

When I was disassembling, I was very methodical in keeping the rod caps oriented correctly in relation to the piston. When I got to number 4, I realized that the three dots on the rod cap were on the port side of the block, and the first three were on the starboard side. number 5 was right, and 6 was reversed too. My thoughts are whoever put the motor back together either didn't know or didn't pay attention and got them backwards, causing the bearings you see.

Block, head, crank, rods, etc. are all at the shop getting checked out. I would assume the block is going to need minor boring. Head is getting the rest of the rocker studs tapped. I would imagine I will go ahead and get new valves, seats, springs, etc. while I am at it. Basically they're gonna clean it up, check it out and see where we need to go. The only way I will be putting a 300 assembly in it is if my stuff is trashed, and I have no reason to believe that's the case.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #23 by 68Flareside240 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:12 pm

Heard back from the shop today. The bore is standard, but has 0.029" wear. Said we need to go 0.040" over. Crank was also worn and needs 0.010". So how is decision time. I want to keep my rods since they are the good ones. I am also thinking of going ahead and getting a 300 crank. Gotta do this anyway, might as well get free cubic inches. Someone mentioned using the 300 crank with 240 rods and a shorter piston. What all would be required to make this work? Pistons have to be custom made? Or should I just got with the whole 300 rotating assembly?

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #24 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:35 pm

The 240 rods on the 300 crank gives a better rod/stroke ratio. It increases the dwell time at top and bottom dead centers, but as pmuller has said many times it requires a custom piston as the compression height ends up around 1.29 inches.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #25 by 68Flareside240 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:26 pm

So not worth it. Anyone in Alabama got a 300 assembly?

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #26 by bubba22349 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:49 pm

You can get a nice set of Autotec forged pistions custom made for about 550.00 To 600.00 and you get to chose your ring sizes at no extra charge. Then you could use the late 300 metric style rings for a little less rotating friction. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 10:44 pm

68Flareside240 wrote: The only way I will be putting a 300 assembly in it is if my stuff is trashed, and I have no reason to believe that's the case.

Since the 240 crank is OK and just needs to be turned .010", why the need for a 300 rotating assembly.
Just get new .040" over Hypereutectic pistons, recondition everything else and call it good.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #28 by Max_Effort » Wed May 29, 2019 10:53 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
68Flareside240 wrote: The only way I will be putting a 300 assembly in it is if my stuff is trashed, and I have no reason to believe that's the case.

Since the 240 crank is OK and just needs to be turned .010", why the need for a 300 rotating assembly.
Just get new .040" over Hypereutectic pistons, recondition everything else and call it good.


Sixty more cubes for cheap... not many engine families give you so much for so little...

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 10:57 pm

Max_Effort wrote:Sixty more cubes for cheap... not many engine families give you so much for so little...

I agree.
I just wanted to know why Flareside changed direction.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #30 by 68Flareside240 » Thu May 30, 2019 9:50 am

Ha because I am indecisive. I want to keep the 240, but I am paying to have a crank turned anyway, I might as well take what I am given and go with the 300. I talked to the shop yesterday and he felt the same way. Basically I am at a standstill now because he wants the pistons in hand before he starts on the block, but I have to decide which way I am going to go before I order parts. I think for my overall plans for the motor, I will be better served going with the 300. But I don't want to get into trouble with parts that just don't work together. My plans are to have an Offy C with a smallish 4v, headers, and a cam. I haven't even begun to look into cams yet and I know yall are way smarter than I am on that and the problems I may run into with the 240 head.

The shop is going to bore the block, turn the crank, rework the head, install cam bearings, pistons to rings, etc. Also clean up all my covers and pans, and machine my flywheel for $780. I thought that was a pretty good deal.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #31 by Mdixon300f100 » Thu May 30, 2019 1:59 pm

68Flareside240 wrote: The shop is going to bore the block, turn the crank, rework the head, install cam bearings, pistons to rings, etc. Also clean up all my covers and pans, and machine my flywheel for $780. I thought that was a pretty good deal.


That is a great deal. I was quoted over $4k for the machine work on my short block. Or about $8k for a finished, Dyno broke in engine.

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #32 by 68Flareside240 » Thu May 30, 2019 4:07 pm

I think I am going to look for a donor 300 for a week or so, then just go with the 240 if no luck. I found a complete 1985 300 for 300 bucks. Are there any years of 300s I should be looking for, or will any of them work?

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Re: Got the motor out....

Post #33 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu May 30, 2019 8:28 pm

Prior to '87 they all had carbs. In '87 they switched to EFI with a change to a fast-burn head and other stuff. As far as durability goes there is no singular year short block that is best. Nearly all carbed engines had pistons that were prone to cracking. Nearly all EFI engines had heads that were prone to crack if the engine was overheated and run out of coolant sometime.
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