Block swap questions

From Ryan's original thread,

drag-200stang":1p0ssvz1 said:
I feel bad for you...
Something not put together right.
9'' bell on a 8-1/2 small pattern only early block.

frozenrabbit":1p0ssvz1 said:
It is looking like you've got a 9" flywheel and clutch set up on a 8.5" clutch block.

What's the casting number on your block?

StarDiero75":1p0ssvz1 said:
The block is the original 65

Yes that is true i jave a 9" on a 8.5" block.

frozenrabbit":1p0ssvz1 said:
Dude.......Very bad news...

You are either going to have to find another engine with a 'dual bolt pattern", or a later 200 with just the 9" bell bolt pattern.

Or, get a 8.5" flywheel and clutch, find a (64) Econoline (3.03) bell

Best advice, find a complete later engine and transmission

bubba22349":1p0ssvz1 said:
:banghead: well there you go! 200-Dragstang & Frozenrabbit, :beer: seen the problems with bell housing mounting and nailed it! It's just too bad you didn't post those pictures at the very beginning of this journey, you could have saved yourself lots of time, some of your money, and much of your frustration.

frozenrabbit":1p0ssvz1 said:
A T5 transmission, 8.5" flywheel and pressure plate, 8.5" bell, T5 conversion clutch disc, T5 cross member, pilot bearing, custom drive shaft, 2.77 to T5 trans adapter from someplace like Modern DriveLine. And other conversion parts I'm sure I'm missing in this short list.

http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... -7p138.htm

Even with a free transmission, you are easily over $1000 with just T5 conversion parts, not including stock 8.5" parts or drive shaft, to do this.

Don't know what your budget is, but I'd just find a complete engine with a 3.03.

StarDiero75":1p0ssvz1 said:
I already have a 3.03. Thats what the problem with me setup. If i can keep it without changing my engine thatd be perfect

frozenrabbit":1p0ssvz1 said:
Only way to correctly get your 8.5" block to your 3.03 is with the Econoline bell housing setup.

There is a user on here named Econoline, I believe he has a bell housing, and Econline trans, he might sell the bell seperate.

Yes I do and I did offer it up.

powerband":1p0ssvz1 said:
. It's simple to determine. The "dual drilled' 170/200's have the bellhouse block fastener 'holes' at top/rear of block deck right below the head at the head/block gasket line.. NON dual drilled for small bell only have bolt 'holes' @ 2" below the deck/head mating surface.

drag-200stang":1p0ssvz1 said:
powerband":1p0ssvz1 said:
from Modern DriveLine page: .... The mid 200’s, 1965-68, had dual pattern blocks. And the late 200 block castings, 1967-1979 only had the 9” set-up

AFAIF
The C8DE 200 and 170 castings were dual-drilled and used in Mustang and MAverick through early 70's. The OEM - 3 frz plug 170 from my '71 Maverick is C8DE with 3 speed on column 3.03 with C7ZA 9 " clutch bellhouse. C8DE 200 in previous pic is dual drilled from late 60's Mustang.

haev fun

PS - Rhinebeck Dustoff swap and shows was great today Friday 4th and I'll be ther Sat. and Sun 5th 6th . ..
I can confirm that a C8 was duel and came from a 70 170..A C6 duel from a 66 200...C8 duel 200...D8 duel 200 and a member just posted that his E1 200 high mount was a duel..I do not buy that 67-79 were 9'' only...There is always fords exception to any rule...I have never seen a single bell mount with a high mount starter after late 66, I am sure there out there,..Maybe a west coast factory thing.

Econoline":1p0ssvz1 said:
It's been my understanding until it was refuted recently that all 200's are dual pattern except the early 8.5 pattern blocks. If anyone has a picture of a large pattern only block I want to see it. If you have or have had a large pattern only block I'd like to see a pic of it and hear about the details on the block date and code.
 
Econoline:34y2szkn said:
From Ryan's original thread,

drag-200stang:34y2szkn said:
I feel bad for you...
Something not put together right.
9'' bell on a 8-1/2 small pattern only early block.

frozenrabbit:34y2szkn said:
It is looking like you've got a 9" flywheel and clutch set up on a 8.5" clutch block.

What's the casting number on your block?

StarDiero75:34y2szkn said:
The block is the original 65

Yes that is true i jave a 9" on a 8.5" block.

frozenrabbit:34y2szkn said:
Dude.......Very bad news...

You are either going to have to find another engine with a 'dual bolt pattern", or a later 200 with just the 9" bell bolt pattern.

Or, get a 8.5" flywheel and clutch, find a (64) Econoline (3.03) bell

Best advice, find a complete later engine and transmission

bubba22349:34y2szkn said:
:banghead: well there you go! 200-Dragstang & Frozenrabbit, :beer: seen the problems with bell housing mounting and nailed it! It's just too bad you didn't post those pictures at the very beginning of this journey, you could have saved yourself lots of time, some of your money, and much of your frustration.

frozenrabbit:34y2szkn said:
A T5 transmission, 8.5" flywheel and pressure plate, 8.5" bell, T5 conversion clutch disc, T5 cross member, pilot bearing, custom drive shaft, 2.77 to T5 trans adapter from someplace like Modern DriveLine. And other conversion parts I'm sure I'm missing in this short list.

http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... -7p138.htm

Even with a free transmission, you are easily over $1000 with just T5 conversion parts, not including stock 8.5" parts or drive shaft, to do this.

Don't know what your budget is, but I'd just find a complete engine with a 3.03.

StarDiero75:34y2szkn said:
I already have a 3.03. Thats what the problem with me setup. If i can keep it without changing my engine thatd be perfect

frozenrabbit:34y2szkn said:
Only way to correctly get your 8.5" block to your 3.03 is with the Econoline bell housing setup.

There is a user on here named Econoline, I believe he has a bell housing, and Econline trans, he might sell the bell seperate.

Yes I do and I did offer it up.

powerband:34y2szkn said:
. It's simple to determine. The "dual drilled' 170/200's have the bellhouse block fastener 'holes' at top/rear of block deck right below the head at the head/block gasket line.. NON dual drilled for small bell only have bolt 'holes' @ 2" below the deck/head mating surface.

drag-200stang:34y2szkn said:
powerband:34y2szkn said:
from Modern DriveLine page: .... The mid 200’s, 1965-68, had dual pattern blocks. And the late 200 block castings, 1967-1979 only had the 9” set-up

AFAIF

The C8DE 200 and 170 castings were dual-drilled and used in Mustang and MAverick through early 70's. The OEM - 3 frz plug 170 from my '71 Maverick is C8DE with 3 speed on column 3.03 with C7ZA 9 " clutch bellhouse. C8DE 200 in previous pic is dual drilled from late 60's Mustang.

haev fun

PS - Rhinebeck Dustoff swap and shows was great today Friday 4th and I'll be ther Sat. and Sun 5th 6th . ..
I can confirm that a C8 was duel and came from a 70 170..A C6 duel from a 66 200...C8 duel 200...D8 duel 200 and a member just posted that his E1 200 high mount was a duel..I do not buy that 67-79 were 9'' only...There is always fords exception to any rule...I have never seen a single bell mount with a high mount starter after late 66, I am sure there out there,..Maybe a west coast factory thing.

Econoline:34y2szkn said:
It's been my understanding until it was refuted recently that all 200's are dual pattern except the early 8.5 pattern blocks. If anyone has a picture of a large pattern only block I want to see it. If you have or have had a large pattern only block I'd like to see a pic of it and hear about the details on the block date and code.

So I think we are somewhat narrowing down the mystery of the different block Combinations. These are some of the conclusions I have come to over the years of working with these small block Ford six'es.

1. All the early small six blocks built from July 1959 (made for the first year 1960 Falcon / Comet, production run) to end of the 1965 model year run with block numbers C0DE to C5DE. These blocks are for the small bolt pattern bell housings and only can use the 8 1/2 inch clutch with its matching stepped / dog dish flywheel, or with the Ford O / Merc O Matic, then some in 1964 Fairlane's, (1964 1/2 Mustang) first had the Case Fill C4 Duel Range Cruise O Matic. These early blocks usally are best suited to be used in the early model cars from 1960 to 1965. Note that any year Case Fill C4 Trans can also bolt up to these early small bolt pattern blocks.

2.In 1966 the C6DE block was the first to have a duel bolt bell housing pattern these engines are able to use the bigger 9 inch clutch and flat type flywheel, or if you still wanted to use the small bell housing with the 8 1/2 inch clutch and stepped flywheels, the Ford O / Merc O Matic Auto Trans, the Duel Range Case Fill C4 Cruise o Matic and any of the later Case Fill C4's all these still used will use the smaller bell housing bolt pattern. In 1967 and there after the C4 was upgraded to the Select Shift valve body and these also still used the smaller bell housing bolt pattern this continued through to the D8DE and E0, E1, E2, high mount starter blocks. Though I can't prove it yet I think all the high mount starter 170 and 200 blocks made in 1966 to end of production will likely be the duel bolt pattern bell housings so they can use eighter the larger pattern for the 9 inch flywheel clutch combo or the Original small pattern bell C4. I have not worked on, found, or seen any pictures of a single bell housing pattern D (1970's) series block or one that was not drilled and tapped with both bolt patterns. These duel pattern blocks can be used in any year Model from 1960 to 1978, but an early 1960 to 1961 body will need some BFH / hammer work on the firewall tunnel area for some more clearance to be able to fit the larger 9 inch clutch, larger flat flywheel and the bigger bell housing to use with the 3.03 trans combo.

3. The last series of small six Ford 200 Blocks like were used in the Fox chassis Mustangs and Capris ect. (the E1 E2, largest bell housing blocks) these are only made in a low mount starter version that is 2/3 of the Small Block Ford 6 bolt V8 bell housing. They are somewhat rare, thanks to Drag200-Stang's below post we have the best info on them they used a special 164 Tooth Flex Plate, a Lock Up Torque Convertor, Special 2/3 size of the SBF V8 6 bolt bell housing to bolt the new for 1982 C5 Auto Transmissions. (Note that all the other blocks were still the regular duel bolt pattern's, plus also in 1982 for the other high mount starter blocks that used a Manual Trans had a special T4 bell housing (to fit its 4speed trans) this bell can be used to adapt the T5 speed to these 1966 to 1982 high mount starter blocks without an adapter plate.) These above 2/3 V8 6 bolt blocks are real hard to fit into the early model cars 1960 to early 1962 and probably are not worth trying. Also will be more difficult in 1963 up to 1978 models too because of the different bell housing bolt pattern, oil pan, ect. which will require some parts swapping from the 1965 to 1977 200 engines to work.

Let me know your thoughts, corrections, experiences, on this and what else you may have found out working with these Ford blocks too, then we can maybe put it all into a sticky. :nod: (y)
 
Bubba on 2. The last '' with'' you meant without right.
I remember someone that had to drill his own small pattern dowel pin hole.,but that was probably a manufacture glitch...I also
have never seen a 66 up high mount starter not a duel pattern.
I have a low mount block and it has a 164 tooth flex plate on it, same diameter as a 300 11 '' clutch flywheel.
 
Econoline --

The sniper 2300 works great -- I had to set it up with no timing control and update the firmware but so far it has not given any problems. Easier starts, smoother idle, great throttle response and appears to have a lot more torque. I have run both the weber 32/36 and the weber 38 and this setup is 3 x's better.
 
drag-200stang:y0x9zody said:
Bubba on 2. The last '' with'' you meant without right.
I remember someone that had to drill his own small pattern dowel pin hole.,but that was probably a manufacture glitch...I also
have never seen a 66 up high mount starter not a duel pattern.
I have a low mount block and it has a 164 tooth flex plate on it, same diameter as a 300 11 '' clutch flywheel.

Thanks drag-200stang, often / or sometimes I have go to back and reread some of my posts back over a little later to see these kind of mistakes from what I was really trying to say. Quite Interesting on the 164 tooth flex plate then with this info there's another possibility that they may have used a C5 trans with a bigger lock up Torque Convertor. I haven't had the chance to have one of these rare blocks or work on one yet, thank you for adding more info on them. :nod: (y)
 
bubba22349:8pj75oys said:
drag-200stang:8pj75oys said:
Bubba on 2. The last '' with'' you meant without right.
I remember someone that had to drill his own small pattern dowel pin hole.,but that was probably a manufacture glitch...I also
have never seen a 66 up high mount starter not a duel pattern.
I have a low mount block and it has a 164 tooth flex plate on it, same diameter as a 300 11 '' clutch flywheel.

Thanks drag-200stang, often sometimes I have go to back and when I reread some of my posts over again a little later see these kind of mistakes from what I was really trying to say. Quite Interesting on the 164 tooth flex plate then with this info there's another possibility that they may have used a C5 trans with a bigger lock up Torque Convertor. I haven't had the chance to have one of these rare blocks or work on one yet, thank you for adding more info on them. :nod: (y)
You are welcome and hope no offence was taken..In a post about editing posts to cut down on misinformation , I goofed up and 67 ST SIX called me out on it :oops: .
 
:rolflmao: drag-200stang no offense taken actually when I was in grade school I missed much of the second grade due to being ill. For that and maybe a few other reasons I have struggled ever since having trouble with spelling and grammar, etc. Sometimes I go back and look at some of my posts :shock: and wonder how the heck they got so convoluted, :unsure: maybe it's the spell checkers fault :banghead: , it sure seems to add other words than what I want to. :nod: (y)
 
Thank you bubba for sharing your knowledge and experience to help clear this up. This has been a long running issue that pops up since I've been looking around online into these engines when I bought my van. 4 or 5 years ago I concluded in my own mind the same as what you and drag-200stang are confirming, but doubt pops up here and there b/c ppl have been told otherwise. So thank you for sharing and thanks again to drag-200stang for the same.
E1ghtTrack":t4954ys9 said:
Econoline --

The sniper 2300 works great -- I had to set it up with no timing control and update the firmware but so far it has not given any problems. Easier starts, smoother idle, great throttle response and appears to have a lot more torque. I have run both the weber 32/36 and the weber 38 and this setup is 3 x's better.

I'm sorry for the sidetrack in your thread E1ghtTrack. It just drives me nuts, I need to know :)

That's great to hear. I'm working towards going with a sniper as well. Has it finished "learning" yet? How did you set it up, software wise?
 
Thank you Econoline maybe I should cut some this info section out and start a new post so as to not to mess up Eighttracks post. I do think it's an important topic to try and get some accurate info on the blocks so as to help the current and future members select the right parts for their project cars. (y) :nod:
 
Econoline --

No need to apologize for hijacking thread when good information is being shared for everyone's benefit.

The sniper 2300 software is easy to setup. To update the firmware you just pull the SD from the hand held, download the firmware files from Holley and rewrite the files on SD card with files you downloaded.

Here is a video :

https://youtu.be/IR1KC4qcewU

As far as setting up the software it is easy as well -- you go through the setup wizard answer basic questions # of cylinders, Displacement, Cam type, Coil type, target idle, etc... I was shocked at how easy it was to get it started first time, set the idle a little high got it up to running temp them adjust throttle screw to desired RPM. I used to have to have RPM up around 800 with cam and Weber combo and it idled a little rough in gear at lights , now it is set at 650 RPM at idle and it is so smooth at lights I sometimes think the car quit running - LOL - The initial learning process took about 30 minutes of driving under different conditions but it is continuously learning. I have just started to log some running data files. I will pull card and go over the data using the Holley Sniper software on laptop to see what improvements can be made if any after driving it for awhile. So far I would have to say of all the money I have spent on my engine and it has been a lot, the sniper 2300 is the best money I have spent. It really brings my lil sixer to life.
 
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