New Owner '65 Mustang - tune up help please

gimmea250swb

New member
Greetings, Thank you for reviewing my first post...

I just purchased a 65 FB with 200ci engine with holley 1940. The short story is the car hasn't been worked on in years. It ran when I got it last week but not well. It was tough to start and stalled sometimes in the neighborhood. I took some time this past weekend to improve it but have run into an issue and hope somebody can confirm my suspicions. It ran in the driveway after the tuneup and warm engine but now when I just touch the accelerator after a cold start, the engine dies. My guess is the carb needs to be rebuilt - bad/dryrotted accelerator pump and now I learned it may also be a load-o-matic mismatch.

Status:
Compression 150ish on all cylinders
New spark plugs
Vacuum advance doesn't appear to be working on the distributor - when I disconnect the line to the carb there's no noticeable difference - considering petronix - should I still fix the advance?
Adjusted the max vacuum via the carb to get 21hg
Fuel filter and air filter haven't been changed in years (replacements ordered)
I haven't adjusted the timing on the distributor
Discovered this morning it's a load-o-matic C5DF-12127-E

To start the car I pump the accelerator 4-6 times and with the accelerator released I turn the key and it starts up right away - no issues. As soon as I touch the accelerator it dies. I'm used to seeing a spray of fuel in the carb when you hit the accelerator but there's more of a slight dribble in this car. Car won't start with the accelerator pressed.

Does this sound like a carb rebuild to you? That's my guess. What are my options on the 1940/load-o-matic. Can i buy/install a spark control valve?
 
Welcome to the forum!

I would check for fuel flow, which may be fixed by the fuel filter replacement. I picked mine up at the local parts store for like 5 bucks. As a debugger I also installed a transparent filter between the engine and the carb to eliminate any future suspicions of vapor lock / flow issues.

Something you can do to check is unplug the fuel line and put it into a bottle. Crank the engine and see how much pumps through. I assume you've pulled the filter and you can see that the butterfly opens properly?

You say it starts right up. Does it idle nice? I assume so since you tuned the idle? Are you maybe running too rich and flooding the carb off idle? Does it die only when fast accel, or on slow opening of throttle as well?

If you see that flow is good, adjustments are good and you're not too rich, then I'd move on to a carb rebuild. Kits are cheap =)

Oh, and buy the performance manual!! Order it off Vintage Inlines. Great resource.
Also, if you can, support those who support you buy buying stuff from Matt over at VI. There is stuff only he sells for our inline 6's and we should try and keep the doors open =)
 
Welcome aboard. Dr. C covered all the basics.
Might be the time to get rid of the load-o-matic.
The best upgrade is a custom recurved DS11 for you engine combination.
I highly recommend the MSD-6al with a MSD Blaster 2 coil & spiral wound plug wires.
To run a decent ignition system you need to go with a carburetor for a 68 + engine.
You cannot run the lodomatic with a DS11.
I offer a custom curved DS11 for your engine & i also have a new MSD re manufactured MSD-6al & a Blaster coil. Bill
billythedistributorman@live.com
 
21 inches vacuum is pretty dang good, I'd rule out vacuum leaks. Is the vacuum steady?

Ditch the Load O matic, save yourself money and headaches and get a distributor from WSA111, either a DS1 or 2. Then your ignition will be 100%

Sure sounds like the carb needs work. Kits are cheap and simple, and should include an SCV valve, which you can use with the LOM or install and plug with a newer distributor.
 
If you change out the Load O Matic (LOM) distributor, you will also have to change the LOM carburetor.
The LOM carb will not send vacuum to a distributor with a vacuum canister.
 
rocklord":mih4vn95 said:
If you change out the Load O Matic (LOM) distributor, you will also have to change the LOM carburetor.
The LOM carb will not send vacuum to a distributor with a vacuum canister.
Not really, you can plug the LOM port (SCV) on the carb, and hook the distributor vacuum up to the intake manifold or the carb adapter (anywhere below the throttle plate). Might have to drill/tap a port, or swap the carb adapter for one with a port, but a LOM carb with it's SCV capped/plugged will run just fine. I did this for a year before I swapped the Holley/Weber carb on.

Just need to hook the distributor up to manifold vacuum somehow.
 
gimmea250swb":1051v2k7 said:
Greetings, Thank you for reviewing my first post...

I just purchased a 65 FB with 200ci engine with holley 1940.
...
Can i buy/install a spark control valve?

Just caught this - if the 1940 carb doesn't have a Spark Control Valve, then the Load O Matic distributor won't work properly at all, and there's no way to install one on a carb that wasn't designed for one.

Sounds like you've got a mismatch - which should still run "ok" in the driveway, free revving and all - but it's nowhere near it should be. With that in mind, you should replace one or the other to get a proper matching system - and nobody except the most OC "Concours" type is going to recommend the LOM setup.

Also, I think that carb need a rebuild kit.
 
I've seen 1940s with spark valves, check to make sure it has one. If not, you either make the carb match the dizzy or vice versa. Swapping the dizzy is probably the way to go if the carb does not have a SCV. It will work better for you performance and economy wise. The Duraspark systems are good and WSA does those. They are relatively cheap to get and are not difficult to hook up. They're a good piece of modern ignition.

If you chose to not worry about all that ignition, then swapping the carb back to a spark valve type is not difficult. An Autolite 1100 or another Holley 1940 will work. I've heard plenty of mixed reviews about the 1940. Some say its amazing, some say its trash. My experience says trash. But if yours seems like its not bad, stick with it, rebuild it, and swap the dizzy. That's what I'd do. Finding good decent carbs can be difficult b/c they aren't perfect.

If you think the accel pump is toast, which is what it sounds like, try just changing that and see what it does. Its on the outside and pretty easy to access. From there you can determine what definitely needs to happen. I'd say this is the cheap path for someone on a budget. But the carb and dizzy must first be compatible otherwise you'll be chasing your tail for who knows how long. Been there and done that with the SCV and LOM. Took me a month before tossing the 1100 and putting a Holley 1904 in it, ran great after that.

Good luck,
Ryan
 
IIWIYS - once you know if you have the correct carb to match your distributor, I would start by replacing the fuel filter and if that does not correct it - then move on to fuel pump.
 
"...when I just touch the accelerator..."
U say @ a cold start. This probably is not it but worth checkin: the lill fingers or steps in the carb linkage.

How car should start: get in, tap peddle to floor (sets on the steps) w/o holding down. Remove foot.
Turn key, starts (1 - 5 sec).
3 - 10 min (mine is around 7 min) later - the choke is fully done/drops out.
(Minnesota/TX, Portland/Jacksonville, winter/summer). :nod:
 
Besides getting a better dist. you need to get the accelerator pump working on the carb, time for a rebuild.
With the engine running & the vacuum port open on the carb. if you bring the engine off idle, check to see if you have vacuum at that port?
If so then you have ported vacuum.
Still need a distributor.
 
Thank you all for the quick replies! I've rebuilt the carb and everything fits with no missing pieces :)

One issue from the outset - when I took it apart I didn't count how many turns I had on the idle mixture screw!!

Here's where I am right now. If I turn the idle mixture screw all the way in the car will continue to run which I don't think it's supposed to do. It doesn't run well, but it runs. I've pulled the carb and checked the float adjustment and it looks good. Should I worry about this?

I adjusted the mixture screw out and was able to get 18 Hg on the manifold pressure.

I've adjusted the idle to 850 RPM not knowing what it should be. Is this okay?

Thank you!!
 
550 - 6 ona mani, 6-650 ona auto O think, again - ck the above tech archive * "the Handbook".
Don't 4get an ign tune is 1st...
 
Standard starting point for idle mixture screw is 2 turns out initially, then in or out from there. All the way in *should* kill the engine, 99% of engines.

If it's still running, it's getting fuel/air from somewhere else, sounds like the throttle may be open a bit too much. Try to get the hot idle speed down below 700, mine likes 600 (Manual trans). Set the ignition timing for the best idle / highest vacuum (between 6-14 degrees?), then set the idle mixture screw for the same, probably have to lower the idle speed back down, then go back and recheck mixture screw.
 
jamyers":1lgmse8g said:
If it's still running, it's getting fuel/air from somewhere else, sounds like the throttle may be open a bit too much. Try to get the hot idle speed down below 700, mine likes 600 (Manual trans). Set the ignition timing for the best idle / highest vacuum (between 6-14 degrees?), then set the idle mixture screw for the same, probably have to lower the idle speed back down, then go back and recheck mixture screw.

That was it...when I was driving in to work this morning it hit me. I adjusted the idle down to 700 - it was at 1300. This explains why the idle misture screw didn't work. Now that the idle is down the engine shuts off as it should. I have not adjusted the timing yet and will but it got too dark by the time I got home. Also, I don't think the fast idle cam is adjusted properly. I have to help the cam move a little for it to come off fast idle. I'll try some adjustment tomorrow to see how it goes.

Reviewing the 1940 manual, it says to use a specified drill or gauge size should be used to adjust the choke valve. I don't see where it says what the gauge size is. Does anybody know??
 
These are the factory stock tune up specs for a 1965 Mustang 200 with an Auto or Manual Trans. They are in the order that they should be performed to best baseline tune your engine.

1. First the Spark Plugs are gaped to .034

2. Points are then set to 38 degrees Dwell this will give you the best performance and economy. In a pinch you can set the point gap to .025 and it will run but it's not really the ideal.

3. Base timing is set to 10 degrees BTDC for a Manual trans or 12 degrees BTDC with an Auto trans.

4. Starting with the mixture screw set at 1 1/2 turns out (after a rebuild) with the air cleaner assembly installed too and the engine warmed up good to its operating temp. Next the Carb mixture screw is tuned to the best lean idle setting. This is done by turning the screw out until you reach the highest idle RPM on your Tach / Dwell Meter, then turn the mixture screw inward exactly 1/4 turn.

5. Last set the curb Idle RPM for a Mamual trans this is 525 to 550 RPM. For a Auto trans this is set to 485 RPM in drive with the parking brake set or someone setting in the car holding down on the foot brake. If you happen to have AC it should turned be off too.

In the below link is info to help you learn a little bit about how the early Ford six'es LOD distributor and carb's (SCV) are matched to work together, the LOD system doesn't work like any other of the vacuum advance systems. This is a good article that will help you in getting to know how this system should work and it might help you to figure out if its causing any problems. When everything is right and with an engine that's in good condition a Ford 200 Six will idle smooth down to as low as 425 to 450 RPM in drive (Auto trans car or 500 to 525 RPM for a Manuel trans car). Also check that the carb's choke system is working correctly, see the below link for that info. Good luck :nod:

The Ford Load O Matic system
http://www.classicinlines.com/Loadomatic

The Holley / Autolite 1940 Carb Manual
http://www.carburetor-parts.com/assets/ ... manual.pdf

In above manual you will find all the basic settings for float level, choke set up, and testing the fuel pump discharge. If you find that the fuel pump discharge test doesn't work as it should, you may have to stake the ball lightly into the carb base with a small hammer and punch. After doing that you will need to replace that ball with another new ball to replace the one you hammered on. Good luck (y) :nod: Edited to also add the tune up specs for a Manual Trans car!
 
bubba22349":1egn67zi said:
These are the factory stock tune up specs for a 1965 Mustang 200 with an Auto Trans. They are in the order that they should be performed to best baseline tune your engine.

In above manual you will find all the basic settings for float level, choke set up, and testing the fuel pump discharge. (y) :nod:

Thankh you bubba! Do you happen to know what the gauge size is? (Figure 42) I don't see specs anywhere. I'll take a crack at this when I get home this evening.
 
Use a drill bit shank of the proper size as a gauge (see below) with the throttle held closed or you can measure this with a small 6 inch machinists rule the distance between the choke blade and carb throat.

On a small bore Holley 1940 (1 7/16 inch) this measurement is 1/8 inch.
For the the larger bore 1940 models (1 11/16 inch) it's 5/32 inch.

The thermostatic choke cover is set to 1 Mark Rich, past the center Index Mark. The choke stove needs to be installed and in good operating condistion i.e. into exhaust manifold and insulation sleeve over the tube. Fast Idle setting is set at 2100 RPM you may be able to set it a little lower at 1800 RPM, but test that it's RPM is high enough so that the car can drive when engine is still cold without stalling when taking off from a dead stop in drive. After the engine is warmed up to its operating temp remove the air cleaner cover to verafy that the choke is fully open.

Good luck (y) :nod: Edited adding adistional info at 12:53 PM
 
Great news, I've gone through steps 1-5 above. It's a manual so I went to 10 BTDC. We'll see tomorrow how it starts when the engine is cold. I think I've made progress.
 
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