272 cam + auto-tranny = High stall torque converter?

cfmustang

Famous Member
When I went to pick up my car from the machanic a week or so ago, he warned me that I may need a higher stall torque converter. He said that if he had known that the machine shop was putting in that high a duration cam, he would have recomended one while the engine was still out, but he didn't notice it till he started up the engine and took it for a test run.

Sure enough, it it tought to drive. When the car is in gear and the brake is engaged...it stalls. I had to put it in neutral at stop lights.

Has anyone else had experience with this? Does anyone else have a automatic, 272 cam, etc ? Did you have a similar experience and if you did , how did you fix it? If I do replace the converter, will this adversly effect anything else?

Any input you guys have would really help!
 
The high stall can have the effect of making shifts feel softer (a shift kit compensates for this). But if the difference between stock and your converter needs is small, this probably won't rate as an issue.

Regards, Adam.
 
Whats your idle speed in park set at?? Mines around 900-1000 rpm's. Works for me! ;)

Later,

Doug
 
If I remember correctly, it was around 1000 rpm. Maybe a wee bit higher. I don't think the carb is tuned exactly yet, but this was happening when the car was cold and after it had warmed up.

Doug, have you had any problems like this? Is it my carb tuning? The exhuast smells like it is running rich. The car didn't have this problem when I first put the cam in on the first rebuild. Now that the valve work has been done and the car seems to be breathing much better, it is a serious issue. It is darn near undrivable.

I would hate to have to go through the hassle (and money) of swapping out the converter if it is not necessary.

-Chris
 
I don't think it will be an issue at all. The cam has to be big, and the diff ratio pretty tall, to screw things up.

The carb tunning should yield more low-end torque than you banked on.
 
I was thinking the cam was too big...

Xecute, are you saying to get the higher stall torque converter or that the problem is just carb tuning?
 
There are seven things to check:-

1.If your idle jets are smaller than 65 (0.65 mm) and the car boggs offline, then the first thing to check is the carburation. The progression from idle to the main cicuits chipping in is important with a 38 Weber. They have very small 27 mm throttle venturis, so it has great low end air speed. The cam and carb look like a good choice, but if the carb is wrongly jetted, then that's the first thing to check!


2.If there is lots of compression (10:1) and the cam has 50 thou lift figures under 210 at 50 thou on the exhast, then it most likely won't be a problem. This means the engine has good effective compression. The litmus test for this is how much compression the engine has in psi when cranking. If it's quite high, above 130 and below 185, then its likely to be able to idle quite well.

3. The idle vaccum should be above 15 inches of Hg at about 800-900 rpm. If its 10-15, it'll be lousy, and the cam is too big.

4. Wild cams in a poorer breathing head are not an issue as much as it is with very deap breathing heads. If the air speed is quite high because of small ports and a fairly restrictive intake, then quite wild cams are able to be used. Ford couldn'r use any thing wilder than a 270 degree cam in a 351 Clevleland because the combination of huge ports and a long duration cam made them lousy to drive with poor idle vaccum. 289's and 427's, with fairly small ports, could cope with huge duration cams with autos. Same with your 200. Poor off idle torque (twisting force too low compared to stock) is a function of a big cam with poor air speed. Bigger the ports, lower the air speed.

5. The torque converter may already be fairly loose anyway. As soon as you increase torque, you get a higher stall speed than stock. If a stock 200 with a 252 total duration cam has 160 lb-ft of torque at 2200 rpm, then then a worked 200 with a 272 duration cam may have 205 lb-ft at 3000 rpm. But at 2200 rpm, it'll still have great dollops of low-end torque. It's all to do with the neat thing sixes do that V8's don't. They always like to slog at lower revs more than V8's do.

6. Our sixes have short rods which produce better effective compression. Since the stock I6 has less than 8.5:1 compression to start with, any cam upgrade is often grouped with a compression upgrade. This is whats happened with yours.

7. If you have tuned all the rest of this stuff right, then your only other option is to consider an offset keyway or special cam sprocket and chain to degree the cam back a little. Most stock cams work well were the dots are on the timing teeth. Often, high duration cams need lots of work on getting the timing advanced or retarded by a degree or so. It makes a massive difference to how the car runs at the low-end.
 
Wow, thanks for the answer! That is a lot to digest though. I'm a rank amature at this (had virtually all the work done by machine shops), so it will take a bit to sort all this out.

Unfortuantely, I wont be able to look into much of this until I can get the car home from storage in a couple of weeks.

1) I can say that it did not appear to be bogging off the line. In fact, it was quite snappy. It is just when I engage the brakes while in gear. I don't know the idle jet sizes off the top of my head.

2) The head has been milled .060 and the block was decked to true it up, but I don't know what head gasket the machine shop used so I am not sure what my compression would be. I will have to check the compression when I get the car home.

Like I said, I'll have to wait on the rest but if you don't mind, I may need to pick your brain on some of this when it comes time to do some testing...
 
I'd do a little carb tuning and maybe double check your timing? Mines set around 12 degrees at idle and I'm running 38 degrees total IIRC...

When it goes into gear, it drops to around 650-700 rpms. I can idle it down further, but the car starts to shake and it kinda lunges against the brakes! :D :D

Drive it, then pull the plugs and see if its running rich or lean? You shouldnt be smelling any gassy smell at idle ;)

A stall convertor will help, but it should idle allright without one!!

Later,

Doug
 
chris, follow the advise from xecute & mustang geezer. they are right on target with your problem.
the other choice would be to get the camshaft from mike at fspp the 264 with 214 degrees at .050 but get a 112 lobe center rather than the 110 lobe center you have now from clifford. that will change the overlap between intake opening & exhaust closing to give you a smoother idle with more vacuum. but you will see a decrease in low to midrange torque.
very slight though,you will have to make the choice
hope this helps william :D
 
I really appreciate the advice guys! Looks like it is time for me to finally learn some rudimentary tuning skills (timeing, carb, etc).

I can say that the garage said that they had to time it by vacume, but he thought they had it almost spot on. At the very least, I suspect the carb is partially to blame because the exhaust smells REALLY rich...even at idol.

I'm going to see if I can speed up the time-table for bringing the car home, because I am dying to get working on this.

By the way, I haven't gotten around to installing a Pertronix and a better coil. DO you think that would help?

-Chris
 
Quick update....I just checked my paperwork and the carb is a 32/36, not a 38. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
 
This is almost a shot in the dark with all the focus on the engine components, but I couldn't help but notice you keep saying the engine has this idling problem when in gear with the brakes engaged. You don't by chance have power brakes do you? I had a problem like this that drove me crazy once and it was a leaking power brake booster that caused such vacuum leaks with the brakes depressed (while in gear) that the engine would stall out.
 
I'm guessing your engine uses unported vacuum..with that cam your in gear vacuum signal at idle is going to be really low, you are going to need to up your initial timing. If you really want it to run great though plug the vacuum and recurve the distributor to be mechanical only with an initial of 12 degrees and start with the medium weights and springs from the recurve kit as a starting point. That ought to take care of it
 
I'm having the same problem with mine. Everything is completely stock. Idle speed is around 750 in gear, and timing is set at 12*. If you figure this out, let me know.
 
The 32/36 is able to run over 125 hp if the cam is designed to scavenge the fuel air mix. I think its too small. In OZ, we found a 350 or 500 or bigger DGAS 38 was best with wilder engines with bigger cams or 250 engines.

In my opinion, it's all carb turning. I just had another think on it.

The fuel pressure is most likley too high if its a Weber. The US Holley Weber 5200 was different in the fuel pressure requirement, but the carbs look similar. Before wasting any money, please get the carb that is there sorted. Fuel pressure on geniune Weber made carbs found in early Ford Pinto 2000's didn't like lots of pressure. A pressure test showing over 5 psi will be the start of a problem. I'd find a way of limiting it to 2.5 or 3 psi.

There are also specs for float level. The idle bleeds and other items differ, but the problem is most likely to be fuel delivery or metering problem if all the ignition advice has been followed.

Sorry I can't be more specific. Take a copy of these posts, and see a good mechanic or car tuner and get some advice. Anytime a car runs rich, it's because of some basic problem listed here.

Hang in there. It's a great car that needs just a little sorting!
 
Something out of place I see is a lack of (or mention of) an upgraded distributor. The stock '66 "load-o-matic" distributor is vacuum advance only and needs the original Autolite 1100 carb with a spark control valve to operate properly. What willl happen is that you will actually loose ignition advance as you hit the throttle. That's no good with a big cam and stock converter. Do you still have this original distributor?

I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see an improvement by upgrading to either a Duraspark distributor or just getting a '68-'73 points distributor with mechanical and vacuum advance. If you already got it, the earlier stle of Pertronix Ignitor should interchange with the '68 and later distributor.
 
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