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Street 300 L6 Motor

Moderator: Mod Squad

sandboxer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #251 by sandboxer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:05 pm

They are stud mount and sold out. 5 left and 43$ per to make up the remaining 8. Oh well...

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #252 by old28racer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:01 pm

sandboxer -- I think the Elgin Black Ice 410888 set ate for BBF pedestal mount and not 7/16 stud mount, Have you used a set of these? Is there a different part number for a BBF 1.6 ratio 7/16 stud Elgin rocker?
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #253 by old28racer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:40 pm

pmuller9 -- Got my Crane hydraulic lifters today and they 1.995" long and .300 from top edge to the bottom of the pushrod cup. Hope to get some 1.6 or 1.7 rockers to replace the 1.80 BBC special race rockers I was trying to make work. Really would like to run 1.6 ratio so I can use the new set of Comp Cam 903 springs I have already purchased.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

sandboxer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #254 by sandboxer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:28 pm

old28racer wrote:sandboxer -- I think the Elgin Black Ice 410888 set ate for BBF pedestal mount and not 7/16 stud mount, Have you used a set of these? Is there a different part number for a BBF 1.6 ratio 7/16 stud Elgin rocker?


Whoops...
I was blindly replying without quoting. I spoke with Crower today, and their 15$ rockers were all but gone. They sold a few thousand in 4 days...

I will look into the Elgin.
Thanks!

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #255 by old28racer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm

sandboxer -- Ya that what I thought might happen, that was a great deal for BBC 1.55 & 1.6 Crower roller rockers. If you find anything on Stamp Steel Rockers that are for BBC or BBF 1.6 ratio and 7/16 stud mount please let me know. I already have 7/16 screw in studs in my 240 head.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #256 by old28racer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:50 pm

pmuller9 & others --- I have a question on BBC & BBF roller rockers that I may use on my 300 motor build. In looking at some different rockers some are listed as self aligning & some are not. I am running a 240 head with no guide plates just the OEM push rod slot.

I really don't understand the difference between SA & NSA rockers. :bang:
Can I use self aligning rockers or do I need to stay with "none self aligning?"
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #257 by pmuller9 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:57 pm

The only self aligning rockers that I know of is SBC.
Anyway since the 240 head has the pushrod guide slots you cannot use a rocker that cannot spin on the rocker stud.

Please post the rockers that you are looking at.

Max_Effort
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #258 by Max_Effort » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:25 pm

old28racer wrote:pmuller9 & others --- I have a question on BBC & BBF roller rockers that I may use on my 300 motor build. In looking at some different rockers some are listed as self aligning & some are not. I am running a 240 head with no guide plates just the OEM push rod slot.

I really don't understand the difference between SA & NSA rockers. :bang:
Can I use self aligning rockers or do I need to stay with "none self aligning?"


In reference to stud type rocker arms, self aligning rockers have little "flanges" or "rails " that engage the side of the valve stem and keep the rocker over the stem. Recently FTF or someone shared a link to a photo of an early cast 240 rocker... it looked to be self aligning.

Shaft rocker systems are aligned by the shaft, spacers and or springs. Pedestal rockers are aligned by their shaft fulcrum.

Conventional "non self aligning" ball and stud rockers are aligned by the pushrod, either with guideplates or pushrod slots in a cast iron head.

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #259 by old28racer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:45 pm

Max_Effort -- Thanks for the reply on the self aligning rockers. My 240 head has been converted from pressed in 3/8 studs to 7/16 BBC screw in studs. I will be running chrome moly heat treated push rods with the OEM head slots as the guide. From what I have gathered you should not run guide plates with sloted 240 heads so It's my feeling you should not run self aligning rockers also and just let the head push rod slot do all the aligning. Am I correct?
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #260 by pmuller9 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:21 pm

Yes That is correct.
The lifters are on a 2.0" center while the valves and rocker studs are on a 1.9" center so the pushrods come through the head slots at an angle.
As the pushrods go up and down they also rotate the rockers from side to side on the valve stem tips.

It is interesting because the early cylinder head drawings show the valves and the rocker studs on a 2.0" centers

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #261 by old28racer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:44 pm

pmuller9 -- Thanks Paul, I can see how the small angle would move the rocker from side to side but I can not see how a 2" x 2" setup would do anything and would for sure need to have guide plates installed.

As a side note I spent a couple of hours re-measuring my race aluminum roller rockers for ratio number. I have 14 that are for sure normal BBC 1.7 ratio. 4 other are BBC 1,8 ratio. One of the rockers I was using to test my spring & pushrod length was 1.8 and other was 1.7. I am sure this had a lot to do with my valve open lift numbers being off from my cam card.

As you have let me know before 1.6 ratio rockers would be the ideal ratio & I think I will go with the Elgin SSR-888RS BBF 1.6 stainless units. But before I do this I want to reset my BBC 1.7 rockers and retest everything & check pushrod lengths to see what numbers I come up with.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

54-4x4
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #262 by 54-4x4 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:59 am

That is really good you found the differences in your rockers.I wonder how you ended up with a mismatched set?

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #263 by old28racer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:12 pm

54-4x4 --- Yes I am also glad I found a few 1.8 ratio in my old race stuff. I have 5-10 sets of 1.8 & 1.7 BBC Aluminum Race Roller Rockers that were left from my drag racing, I ran both 1.7 & 1.8 depending on the motor I was building and the cam I was running. As my organization is less than perfect they do get mixed up from time to time.

pmuller9 --- Paul they are BBC cheep -o (China made) units that are sold by AT Racing World in Rialto, CA on Ebay PCE 261.1179. Their spec sheet says that the rockers have guide built in. Never heard of anything like this. Ain't going to buy any, just wanted to know difference between SA & NSA. Hope to retest valve lift & PR length tomorrow with 2 1.7 RR as it should have been. I'll let you know what I come up with.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

Max_Effort
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #264 by Max_Effort » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:20 am

old28racer wrote: they are BBC cheep -o (China made) units that are sold by AT Racing World in Rialto, CA on Ebay PCE 261.1179. Their spec sheet says that the rockers have guide built in. Never heard of anything like thi.


I just had to go down that rabbit hole and see....

They are self guided and they are cheap. They probably have a self destruction feature too.




93B87FE9-1A9C-48B0-B9FA-DD1758CC7149.jpeg


F2C1325A-1CF7-4FA5-9B2C-E4CCDDCC9A85.jpeg
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guhfluh
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #265 by guhfluh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:55 am

The tips of the rockers are what self align on the valve stem tips. The tangs overhang either side of the stem and the stem tips need to be long enough for the tangs to miss the retainers...or the tangs shortened.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #266 by old28racer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:17 pm

Max_Effort --- I'm with you on the self destruction feature. :mrgreen:

guhfluh --- They look & sound like junk. Reviews are sure not good. :thumbdown:
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

guhfluh
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #267 by guhfluh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:21 pm

Junk or not doesn't have anything to do with the self aligning design. Many rockers are designed the same way from reputable manufacturers. Some have "washers" in a larger OD than the roller on either side of the roller tip to keep the rocker aligned on the valve tip. They too need to be measured for clearance from the keepers and retainer.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #268 by old28racer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:02 pm

guhfluh --- I was commenting on those units, I would not put them on any motor I am building. I get how the SA rockers work, but after 40+ years of drag racing with tons of different rocker companys I will stay with NSA units, guide plates, & aligning push rod slots. Never had a roller rocker failure in all my years of racing, but I changed them out after a certain number of 1/4 mile passes like you should. :mrgreen:
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #269 by old28racer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:10 pm

pmuller9 -- Paul, just wanted to post a little information on my push rod lengths to see if I am doing it correctly. I installed new valve springs on the #1 & #2 cylinders with the seat pressure at 85# @ 1.735" installed.
Installed four new dry hydraulic lifters and used my two push rod calulators set at 10.350" long (.065" for push rod adjustment). With cam on the base I screwed the poly lock down until the free play was just gone. Then I turned the poly lock down 3/4 of a turn to set the lifter pre-load.

Turned the motor over 5 or 6 times, all was very smooth, I have .075 - .080 Coil Bind clearance.

Put a dial indicator on both the #1 Int & Exh to check valve lift with the new refreshed setup. The cam card shows Int @ .476 & Exh @ .502 w/1.7 ratio rockers. The DI read .501 Exh and .461 Int. I am good with the Exh reading but why is the Int .015" short of were it should be at .476? I know that .015 is no big deal with the bigger valve size & this is not a race motor where I am trying to get every little bit out of the setup, just wondered? I have the DI plunger centered over the rocker roller ball shaft when taking the measurement.

If you need more information just let me know.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #270 by pmuller9 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:24 pm

If I understand you correctly the lifters are dry when you set up the preload which is correct for adjusting the valve train.
But the lifter plunger will still go down even further before the lifter starts to lift the valve.

If you want to check valve lift you need to adjust the pushrod till the lifter plunger is bottomed out when the lifter is on the cam base.
What does the pattern look like on the top of the valve tip?

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #271 by old28racer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:57 am

pmuller9 -- Yes you are correct, the lifters are dry. Also after I had the free play taken up and before I tested the lift I lengthened my PR calculator to set all the preload, the lifter plunger is all the way to the bottom. The roller mark on the top of the valve stem is a little bit to the outside, not to bad and this is the shortest push rod length I can have with the stud bosses the length they are. All of this is just so I can see if my lift numbers are close to what they should be as per cam card with 1.7 ratio rockers.

I am going to go with a set of the Elgin SSR-888 RS 1.6 chrome moly BBF roller rockers. I am hoping that they will take a little shorter PR and this will center the roller on the stem even better. What do you think about the Intake lift being .015 short of what the cam card calls for with my 1.7 rockers? Not that big a deal on a mild street motor?

As always Thanks
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #272 by pmuller9 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:41 pm

You done good!
Waiting to see what the Elgins will do.
Hope you are having fun.

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #273 by old28racer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:45 pm

Paul, I love this stuff :mrgreen: Two / Three hundred more questions and I might have a handle on this 300 motor. :thumbup: I am sure you will git tired of answering my questions long before I get tired of picking your brain of all the 240/300 knowledge you have stored up there. :wink:
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

Max_Effort
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #274 by Max_Effort » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:26 pm

old28racer wrote:pmuller9 -- Yes you are correct, the lifters are dry. Also after I had the free play taken up and before I tested the lift I lengthened my PR calculator to set all the preload, the lifter plunger is all the way to the bottom. The roller mark on the top of the valve stem is a little bit to the outside, not to bad and this is the shortest push rod length I can have with the stud bosses the length they are. All of this is just so I can see if my lift numbers are close to what they should be as per cam card with 1.7 ratio rockers.

I am going to go with a set of the Elgin SSR-888 RS 1.6 chrome moly BBF roller rockers. I am hoping that they will take a little shorter PR and this will center the roller on the stem even better. What do you think about the Intake lift being .015 short of what the cam card calls for with my 1.7 rockers? Not that big a deal on a mild street motor?

As always Thanks


Measured lift is usually maxed on stud rockers if the pushrod length is set with the mid-lift method pmuller9 was explaining and in the video link I posted. However rocker ratios often aren’t exactly as marked.

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #275 by old28racer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 pm

Max_Effort --- I agree with your comment on exact rocker ratio. As the BBC roller rockers I am using for the lift test are a new (old) set of Crane race units they tend to be real close to marked ratio. We will see how the Elgin SSR-888RS BBF 1.6 units work out when I get them.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #276 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:04 am

Would you please measure the distance from the top of the valve stem to the top of the rocker stud tower.
You may need to run a short straight edge on the top of the valve stem to get over the rocker stud tower.
Thanks

54-4x4
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #277 by 54-4x4 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:16 am

old28racer,how did you install your cam,straight up or?

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #278 by old28racer » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:13 pm

pmuller9 --- Paul, I will get that measurement for you later today.

54-4x4 --- It is a RV Cam with no advance or retard and it is installed straight up.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #279 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:33 pm

In post # 156 it looks like you marked the harmonic balancer and timing cover with white paint before the pistons were installed.
After the pistons were in did you check to see if the timing marks were correct with #1 piston at TDC?

old28racer
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #280 by old28racer » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:41 pm

pmuller9 --- I had one of the old piston/rod connected to the crank and a dial indicator to show me TDC. When I got done marking the cover & balancer I pulled the old piston & rod out. When I got it out I had forgot to take the picture, so I took it with the piston out. I have not installed my new pistons as of yet. I will when I am good with the valve train setup.

I took a measurement from top of valve stem to flat surface top of stud boss and I got 0.889 - 0.917 over four times. Bit hard with the stem at a small angle. If you need for me to check it again just let me know. Maybe I can lay a magnetic edge across the stem top for a more accurate measurement.
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

pmuller9
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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #281 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:12 pm

old28racer wrote:I took a measurement from top of valve stem to flat surface top of stud boss and I got 0.889 - 0.917 over four times. Bit hard with the stem at a small angle. If you need for me to check it again just let me know. Maybe I can lay a magnetic edge across the stem top for a more accurate measurement.

.900" seems too short
Looking at one of your pics, if I go straight accross the valve tip keeping the line 90 degrees with the valve stem, the line hits the rocker stud about halfway down the threaded section of the stud.
If the stud is 1.75" long that puts the line 1.275" above the top of stud boss.

Thanks for taking the time to measure this.

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Re: Street 300 L6 Motor

Post #282 by old28racer » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:11 pm

Paul, now you got me thinking, I will retake measurement tomorrow morning and see if it is correct and also check the screw in stud measurement. Like I said I love this stuff. :bang: :thanks:
Bad Day Racing Is Better Than A Day In The Stands :mrgreen:

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