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300 rebuild project

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brandoncw
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300 rebuild project

Post #1 by brandoncw » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:02 pm

Ok so i recently got a rather loud tap, not quite a knock, comming from i believe my bottom end of my 300. She has about 375k on it so anything is possible. I have good oil level and decent oil pressure. I first thought it was rod knock but ive driven about 100 miles on it and the condition has not worsened and it does not look like tinker bell lives in my oil pan. Could there be something else making the noise?

These are the conditions of the noise im hearing, it is present about 10 seconds after the engine has started cold. Immediately if it was just ran. The sound can be heard at all rpms while not under a load. But the sound is not present while under a load from something like taking off shifting through gears. If the motor doesnt last its ok cause i have another im am gonna rebuild to put in. So im really just curious of what the problem is. I will check for movement in the pistons by pushing them down when they are on their down stroke. And i will check rocker arms and pushrods for play and bending just incase that is the issue.
<edit> It sounds like it could unfortunately be piston slap. Will do some more research though.
Last edited by brandoncw on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:48 am

:hmmm: Might help to know what year engine / truck your working on! On the 300 engines cracked piston skirts often are a cause in 1965 to early 1995 engines. On an older carb type engine sometimes a worn out fuel pump lever at its pivot point can also be a cause of a knock its sound gets louder as engine RPM increases. Good luck in the hunt. :nod:
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:56 am

pmuller9 wrote:What year is the old engine and the new engine?


brandoncw wrote:The old one is a 93 and the new is a 91

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:17 pm

:beer: Ok thanks pmuller9! In that case since its an EFI engine I would focus on your Pistons as being a possable cause. Personally had one 300 (high milage engine) that just about totally destroyed itself due to a stock cast Piston failing, after that I never used a stock Ford cast pistion again. Good luck on your rebuild :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #5 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:50 pm

bubba22349 wrote::beer: Ok thanks pmuller9! In that case since its an EFI engine I would focus on your Pistons as being a possable cause. Personally had one 300 (high milage engine) that just about totally destroyed itself due to a stock cast Piston failing, after that I never used a stock Ford cast pistion again. Good luck on your rebuild :nod:

I did some research on that issue and the sound it makes is very similar to mine. So hopefully the engine block is still salvageable. Im gonna assume so since it doesnt look like tinkerbell had a party in my engine. I may just put my second motor in and sink some hours into this one. Not sure yet.
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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #6 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:25 pm

Ok so the engine died on the highway like someone flipped a switch. Pulled her home and did an autopsy. This was my first clue. The ditributor rotor wasnt turning when i cranked on the engine. Pulled it out and it looked ok. Pin was intact. Then i noticed my engine cranked unusually easy. I took off valve cover and the rockers wernt moving at all. At that point i though my crank was broke in two. Lowered the oil pan to peak inside. Cranked on it and all six pistons went up and down. Crank is fine. Pulled timing gear cover and there was the culprit. A cam gear with over 1/4 of the teeth stripped clean. Could a chipped tooth have been the noise i was hearing or was it probably secondary damage from something else breaking?
Note i will be pulling the engine and thouroghly clean the inside and outside of the engine block
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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #7 by wallen7 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:50 pm

When the fiber timing gear strips the motor quits running, the only thing that you realy need to pull is the pan. That is where the teeth go and the oil pump screen. If you clean those and replace the gear set it should be fine, most people get in trouble when they don't clean the screen and pan. That's when you end up with not enough oil to the bearings and start ruining things.

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #8 by wallen7 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:58 pm

You could still have other problems that don't have anything to do with the timing gears, but I have seen so many of these with timing gear noises that is very probably your major problem.

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #9 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:50 pm

wallen7 wrote:When the fiber timing gear strips the motor quits running, the only thing that you realy need to pull is the pan. That is where the teeth go and the oil pump screen. If you clean those and replace the gear set it should be fine, most people get in trouble when they don't clean the screen and pan. That's when you end up with not enough oil to the beai
wallen7 wrote:You could still have other problems that don't have anything to do with the timing gears, but I have seen so many of these with timing gear noises that is very probably your major problem.
rings and start ruining things.

But this timing gear looks as if its cast not fiber. I may be wrong. Ill check with a magnet
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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #10 by wallen7 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:03 pm

The same still applies, as soon as the cam quits turning the engine stops. It won't turn the oil pump an the teeth go to the pan. Now if you replace the gears and don’t clean the pan it will suck the debris into the pump.

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Re: Is it rod knock or something less catastrophic?

Post #11 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:06 pm

wallen7 wrote:The same still applies, as soon as the cam quits turning the engine stops. It won't turn the oil pump an the teeth go to the pan. Now if you replace the gears and don’t clean the pan it will suck the debris into the pump.

Ok. I already drained the oil. Tomorrow morning im gonna yank out the engine and put it on a stand. My next question is what cam can i get since im already here that would get me some extra power down lower in the rpm range 1000- 2000 and is stock ecu friendly, looking at comp 252h but im not sure if its efi friendly. And can i change my own cam bearings myself without an expensive tool? (Seen a guy do it on a jeep 4.0 with nothing more than all thread some nuts and some washers) and is the roll pin method of securing lifter studs safe? And lastly for my goal of more power in the low rpms are chevy 250 rockers beneficial or is that only helpful in upper rpms.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #12 by wallen7 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:29 pm

The Comp Cams 252H is supposed to work with all stock components, but I would give them a call to make sure. I have never tried to put in cam bearings without a cam tool, Some of the auto parts store have a loaner program for these special tools. I think Autozone is one if I remember correctly. The main thing on cam bearings is make sure the oil holes are lined up correctly and that the cam rotates easily by hand. On this engine all the cam bearings are the same as long as you get them for the right year model block. Ford made a change but I don't remember what year. Pinning the rocker studs is acceptable, but I don't think That I would use 250 Chevy rocker arms with the cam change and EFI.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #13 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:00 pm

wallen7 wrote:The Comp Cams 252H is supposed to work with all stock components, but I would give them a call to make sure. I have never tried to put in cam bearings without a cam tool, Some of the auto parts store have a loaner program for these special tools. I think Autozone is one if I remember correctly. The main thing on cam bearings is make sure the oil holes are lined up correctly and that the cam rotates easily by hand. On this engine all the cam bearings are the same as long as you get them for the right year model block. Ford made a change but I don't remember what year. Pinning the rocker studs is acceptable, but I don't think That I would use 250 Chevy rocker arms with the cam change and EFI.


Thanks. Ill give autozone a call. I just came across another question. In my personal experience intake valves tend to last much much longer than the exhaust. Is it acceptable to just change exhaust valves and lap them assuming the seats are straight and not pitted (correct me if im wrong but i was told lappin the valves also shows if there are any low spots) if all the intake appear clean and in good shape?
Last edited by brandoncw on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:02 pm

You don't have rocker studs.
The rocker fulcrum bolts to the head boss.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #15 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:04 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You don't have rocker studs.
The rocker fulcrum bolts to the head boss.

Then whats all the talk ive read about pinning them or converting to screw in studs? I mighr have been reading on a different engine :lol:
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:05 pm

brandoncw wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:You don't have rocker studs.
The rocker fulcrum bolts to the head boss.

Then whats all the talk ive read about pinning them or converting to screw in studs?


Pre 1985 heads have studs.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #17 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:11 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Pre 1985 heads have studs.

I just realised that. I found the thread i was reading lmao. I was just keeping you guys on your toes thats all
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:18 pm

The stock cam has a 268 degree advertised duration and is retarded 4 degrees which closes the intake valve 68* ABDC.
The Comp 252 cam installed 4 degrees advanced (per the cam card) closes the intake valve 52* ABDC which is a lot sooner than the stock cam.
The Dynamic compression is raised considerably.
The problem you may see is detonation since you have no control over the ignition timing.

Using 1.75 ratio chevy six rockers on the stock cam gives good results.
You would have to drill and tap for studs and use a set of pushrod guide plates.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #19 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:33 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The stock cam has a 268 degree advertised duration and is retarded 4 degrees which closes the intake valve 68* ABDC.
The Comp 252 cam installed 4 degrees advanced (per the cam card) closes the intake valve 52* ABDC which is a lot sooner than the stock cam.
The Dynamic compression is raised considerably.
The problem you may see is detonation since you have no control over the ignition timing.

Using 1.75 ratio chevy six rockers on the stock cam gives good results.
You would have to drill and tap for studs and use a set of pushrod guide plates.


So i do know higher compression ratio translates to higher torque and efficiency. But consequently higher compression means more heat that may detonate fuel on its own. So i could run higher octane right? And since i will have the head off i can smooth edges in the combustion chamber to reduce hot spots. When i get the motor out im going to check all my cylinder bores for wear. If they look pretty worn and have bad ring groove i may just put a stock cam and valvetrain in and go with flat top pistons to bump up compression 2 points. Maybe more if im boring it. Idk how that works out there. I want to run on pump gas but still get a little extra grunt out of it.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:50 pm

The Ford 4.9 works best on pump gas with Dynamic Compression Ratios (DCR) of 7.5 or less.
The stock EFI 4.9 has a Static Compression Ratio(SCR) of 8.8 with a DCR of 7.0 with the stock cam.

If you put a flat top piston in and raise the SCR to 11.0, the DCR is 8.6 with the stock cam which is way too high for pump gas.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #21 by brandoncw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:49 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The Ford 4.9 works best on pump gas with Dynamic Compression Ratios (DCR) of 7.5 or less.
The stock EFI 4.9 has a Static Compression Ratio(SCR) of 8.8 with a DCR of 7.0 with the stock cam.

If you put a flat top piston in and raise the SCR to 11.0, the DCR is 8.6 with the stock cam which is way too high for pump gas.


Could i put some octane boost in some 93 octane gas? It might get expensive but in six months this truck is just gonna be a play toy anyways. Im going to basic training and ait in june then after all that im gonma buy me something a litle newer and just make this a stock v8 crusher or a heavy load trailer hauler
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #22 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:11 am

Cam bearings are really robust. I doubt that they need changing, but if you do, the rear two get loaded in the block from the rear, so you will need to have access to the rear face of block, i.e., remove the transmission etc.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #23 by justintendo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:54 am

brandoncw wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:The Ford 4.9 works best on pump gas with Dynamic Compression Ratios (DCR) of 7.5 or less.
The stock EFI 4.9 has a Static Compression Ratio(SCR) of 8.8 with a DCR of 7.0 with the stock cam.

If you put a flat top piston in and raise the SCR to 11.0, the DCR is 8.6 with the stock cam which is way too high for pump gas.


Could i put some octane boost in some 93 octane gas? It might get expensive but in six months this truck is just gonna be a play toy anyways. Im going to basic training and ait in june then after all that im gonma buy me something a litle newer and just make this a stock v8 crusher or a heavy load trailer hauler



not a good plan..you want to rely on bottled octane boost? listen to pmuller, hes a guru.
if you are really planning on working the engine, as a "heavy load trailer hauler"....you have to allow for that in your engine build. you cant be pushing the boundaries of pump gas when the engine is going to be loaded.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #24 by brandoncw » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:40 pm

I got the engine out. Good news is it doesnt have a cracked or broken piston skirt. I have a few questions i cam across while turning the crank by hand. When som of the cylinders are close to tdc and i change directions of the crank there is a bloop kind of sound. Is this normal? And all the cylinders hiss pretty loudly. I know there is what is called ring gap. The openening at the ends of the rings so naturally air will make it though. But is it normal for them to hiss really loud?

justintendo wrote:

not a good plan..you want to rely on bottled octane boost? listen to pmuller, hes a guru.
if you are really planning on working the engine, as a "heavy load trailer hauler"....you have to allow for that in your engine build. you cant be pushing the boundaries of pump gas when the engine is going to be loaded.


I understand. I just dont have suppliers of high octane fuel around me. And my next question for pmuller9 is what is the best way to get the the 7.5 DCR? Deck the block? Less dished piston? Cam? Different lifter ratio? I would appreciate the info thanks
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:02 am

Here's some information to consider for decision making.

The only catalog pistons for the Ford 300/4.9 are cast pistons.
Forged pistons are a custom item with the least expensive being Autotec for around $550 for a set of six.
The regular cast pistons are the ones that break.

Hypereutectic cast pistons are stronger and will last providing there isn't any prolonged detonation.
There are four available Hyper pistons that have the higher compression 22cc "D" dish.

KB/Silvolite:
1186H (5/64 ring set)
3171H (2.00mm ring set)

Speed Pro/Sealed Power:
H519P (5/64 ring set)
H674P (2.00mm ring set)

You can deck the block to achieve up to a 9.4 compression ratio with the pistons at zero deck.
With the stock cam in the stock 4 degree retarded position the DCR will be 7.4 and the engine will require premium octane pump gas.
Any aftermarket cam needs to have at least a 268* intake advertised duration. (stock cam intake duration is 268*)

There are good gains in power by increasing the valve lift.
One way is to convert the head to stud rockers and use the Chevy 250 six 1.75 ratio rockers on the stock cam.
BBC rockers can also be used.

The stock ECM with the stock 14# fuel injectors have about a 170 hp limit considering the increase in engine efficiency from the higher compression.
That will limit the cam size or any other mods that increase horsepower.

You can increase the engine torque considerably below 3000 rpm but as you go beyond that point and hit the horsepower limit the engine will lean out with possible damage.

If you want a lot more power to stomp V8s or tow steep grades at highway speeds then the stock EFI system would need to be replaced by an aftermarket (preferably a wide band O2) EFI system or go to a carburetor setup.
Then you free to do big valve ported heads with big cams or turbocharge.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #26 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:07 am

Has anyone ever dealt with Enginetech rebuild kits? I emailed them to see what part suppliers they use to build their kits. If they use decent quality parts at the price advertised i may very well go with their kit. Especially being that the kit includes rod, main, and cam bearins, hyper pistons, freeze plugs, gaskets, timing gears, and some valvetrain.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #27 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:11 am

pmuller9 wrote:Here's some information to consider for decision making.

The only catalog pistons for the Ford 300/4.9 are cast pistons.
Forged pistons are a custom item with the least expensive being Autotec for around $550 for a set of six.
The regular cast pistons are the ones that break.

Hypereutectic cast pistons are stronger and will last providing there isn't any prolonged detonation.
There are four available Hyper pistons that have the higher compression 22cc "D" dish.

KB/Silvolite:
1186H (5/64 ring set)
3171H (2.00mm ring set)

Speed Pro/Sealed Power:
H519P (5/64 ring set)
H674P (2.00mm ring set)

You can deck the block to achieve up to a 9.4 compression ratio with the pistons at zero deck.
With the stock cam in the stock 4 degree retarded position the DCR will be 7.4 and the engine will require premium octane pump gas.
Any aftermarket cam needs to have at least a 268* intake advertised duration. (stock cam intake duration is 268*)

There are good gains in power by increasing the valve lift.
One way is to convert the head to stud rockers and use the Chevy 250 six 1.75 ratio rockers on the stock cam.
BBC rockers can also be used.

The stock ECM with the stock 14# fuel injectors have about a 170 hp limit considering the increase in engine efficiency from the higher compression.
That will limit the cam size or any other mods that increase horsepower.

You can increase the engine torque considerably below 3000 rpm but as you go beyond that point and hit the horsepower limit the engine will lean out with possible damage.


Not that ill ever find one but i read that back in the 60s and 70s the HD 300s in the medium duty dump trucks used all forged internals.

If i did the rocker conversion what kind of power change would i expect ti see if everything else remained stock, besides the cylinder bore?

Can i increase the hp capabilities with injectors off a 351w? I think they are 19# if my memory serves correctly. And i think the 96 300s used MAF sensor setups. If i snagged up a ecu and intake from one of those is that all id need?
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #28 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:41 am

A link to the rebuild kit i am considering.
www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CLX1KBM/ref=m ... 1760929951

It has one review that claims good quality. At $250 for all that the kit includes i feel skeptical but if they use reliable suppliers thats a steal of a price.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:55 am

The HD 300 used forged steel cranks, but the pistons were low compression cast with some using a step dish design.
As far as I know all rods are forged steel. 1965-1968 rods have the .912 piston pin without the oil spit hole in the big end. Post 68 have the .975" pin.

The EFI head has a heart shape chamber that purposely shrouds the valves to create swirl for at least .300" valve lift.
Any lift above the stock .397" helps flow significantly. I can't give you a power number but you will be able to tell the difference.

brandoncw wrote:Can i increase the hp capabilities with injectors off a 351w? I think they are 19# if my memory serves correctly. And i think the 96 300s used MAF sensor setups. If i snagged up a ecu and intake from one of those is that all id need?

Under partial throttle or partial load the ECU is in closed loop mode with the O2 sensor and will try to compensate for the larger injectors in order to maintain a 14.7 air fuel ratio.
Under heavier loads it goes open loop and blindly assumes fuel delivery based on 14# injectors using the stock engine fuel map.

It is true that the MAF system is more adaptable to Volumetric Efficiency increases due to performance part changes but unless you go in and reprogram the fuel maps the system still assumes 14# injectors. If you change to larger injectors that match the increased WOT airflow, I'm not sure what happens at part throttle. Chances are it will run rich.

If the MAF system will push the stock 14# injectors out to a 90% duty cycle, it would support about 190 HP.
I
Side Note: The 1996 4.9 is sequential injection and uses a different injector harness than the 87-95 bank to bank injection.

An aftermarket EFI system can use a wide band O2 sensor and can stay closed loop to maintain proper air fuel ratios throughout the load range.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:26 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:01 am

brandoncw wrote:A link to the rebuild kit i am considering.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CLX1KB ... 1760929951


The kit shows the low compression round dish piston which is not what you want.
EFI 4.9 engines use smaller volume "D" dish pistons for a 8.8 compression ratio.

Do you just want to get this engine running again and do a high performance build later?

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #31 by arse_sidewards » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:40 am

pmuller9 wrote:Side Note: The 1996 4.9 is sequential injection and uses a different injector harness than the 87-95 bank to bank injection.


Can someone confirm whether the 1995ish (a couple late '94s wouldn't surprise me) EEC-IV MAF equipped 300s for sale in CA/MA (and possibly other states who at the time had emissions requirements that can be summed up as "I'm with stupid") is bank fired or SEFI?
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #32 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:44 pm

Update on the engine condtion. Cylinder 5 is rough. It explains the low compression on that cylinder. In my inexperienced eye the rod journals look ok and just need a little emry cloth and polished up. The rod bearings look like they've seen better days though :lol: the cam is slightly pitted in some spots. Here are some pics i got of the engine condition so far.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #33 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:47 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Side Note: The 1996 4.9 is sequential injection and uses a different injector harness than the 87-95 bank to bank injection.


Can someone confirm whether the 1995ish (a couple late '94s wouldn't surprise me) EEC-IV MAF equipped 300s for sale in CA/MA (and possibly other states who at the time had emissions requirements that can be summed up as "I'm with stupid") is bank fired or SEFI?


You will probably get a faster reply if you start your own thread.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #34 by arse_sidewards » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:01 pm

brandoncw wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Side Note: The 1996 4.9 is sequential injection and uses a different injector harness than the 87-95 bank to bank injection.


Can someone confirm whether the 1995ish (a couple late '94s wouldn't surprise me) EEC-IV MAF equipped 300s for sale in CA/MA (and possibly other states who at the time had emissions requirements that can be summed up as "I'm with stupid") is bank fired or SEFI?


You will probably get a faster reply if you start your own thread.


I don't personally need the answer I just wanted to point out the uncertainty so that the next guy reading this doesn't just assume that 95 does or doesn't have SEFI.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #35 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:55 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:
I don't personally need the answer I just wanted to point out the uncertainty so that the next guy reading this doesn't just assume that 95 does or doesn't have SEFI.

Ah, gotcha.
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #36 by brandoncw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:54 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
If you want a lot more power to stomp V8s or tow steep grades at highway speeds then the stock EFI system would need to be replaced by an aftermarket (preferably a wide band O2) EFI system or go to a carburetor setup.
Then you free to do big valve ported heads with big cams or turbocharge.


Im really liking this carb set up and had a good idea of what to put it in rather than my beat up turd. If im thinking straight the old maverick cars used a 240. So that should be an easy swap. Only problem i see is possibly the space or a turbo with the spring towers so close.
I have one question regarding the heads though. Can i use the efi head if i cap the smog port things? And since i have to bore the block out could i bore it over .050 and put in the 390 pistons. Was told they bump compression to the 9.6 area.
Also doing some research i managed to find 100 octane fuel supplier. And if this motor is going in a maverick its not gonna be a daily car. So im fine with poor gas mileage and expensive gas. That opens a lot of possibilities of what i can do with this engine dont it?
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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #37 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:15 am

brandoncw wrote:Im really liking this carb set up and had a good idea of what to put it in rather than my beat up turd. If im thinking straight the old maverick cars used a 240. So that should be an easy swap. Only problem i see is possibly the space or a turbo with the spring towers so close.

I was under the impression that your engine still had the factory EFI system. What carb setup are you referring to?

The Mavericks used the 250 six which is physically a smaller engine but a 300 six can be made to fit.
The 240 was used in the large body cars like the Ford Galaxie.

You can plug the air holes in the head and be good to go.

If you want to bore the block .050" over have the cylinder walls sonic checked for thickness first.
The 390 pistons come in many varieties including forged and there are several dish volumes for different compression ratios.

If you go with a carb and big cam you can have a 10:1 compression ratio and still use pump gas or higher compression for 100 octane gas.

To get a lot of power from a 300 six the head needs to be ported and larger valves installed.
The EFI head needs combustion chamber modifications to accommodate larger valves.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2wxpsuq25rp1 ... 3.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Shredded cam gear

Post #38 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:58 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote:Im really liking this carb set up and had a good idea of what to put it in rather than my beat up turd. If im thinking straight the old maverick cars used a 240. So that should be an easy swap. Only problem i see is possibly the space or a turbo with the spring towers so close.

I was under the impression that your engine still had the factory EFI system. What carb setup are you referring to?

The Mavericks used the 250 six which is physically a smaller engine but a 300 six can be made to fit.
The 240 was used in the large body cars like the Ford Galaxie.

You can plug the air holes in the head and be good to go.

If you want to bore the block .050" over have the cylinder walls sonic checked for thickness first.
The 390 pistons come in many varieties including forged and there are several dish volumes for different compression ratios.

If you go with a carb and big cam you can have a 10:1 compression ratio and still use pump gas or higher compression for 100 octane gas.

To get a lot of power from a 300 six the head needs to be ported and larger valves installed.
The EFI head needs combustion chamber modifications to accommodate larger valves.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2wxpsuq25rp1 ... 3.jpg?dl=0


Sorryi wasn't very clear. I meant im liking the idea of making a carbed setup. Personally i like the looks of carbs over wire looms and plastic everywhere.
And i wasnt really referring any set up in particular.
I was kinda thinking an offenhauser intake. (Im pretty good with fab work i may make my own tripple carb intake with 1 bbl carbs. I think it looks sweet)
390 not sure on dish size if any yet, possibly cut the deck a few thousanths, a set of headers, 270 duration cam, oversized valves, and a good port job/ comb. Chamber blend & polish. That would give me some torque wouldnt it?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #39 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:18 pm

You can use the bottom half of the stock EFI intake manifold to fabricate a multi carb plenum.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lqenf6ztqv4y ... e.jpg?dl=0

The cylinder head should be completed first so you know what the final combustion chamber volume is.
Then the piston volume can be calculated to get the compression ratio needed and the pistons can be ordered.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #40 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:29 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You can use the bottom half of the stock EFI intake manifold to fabricate a multi carb plenum.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lqenf6ztqv4y ... e.jpg?dl=0

The cylinder head should be completed first so you know what the final combustion chamber volume is.
Then the piston volume can be calculated to get the compression ratio needed and the pistons can be ordered.

That is pretty genious. I would have never thought of that lmfao. But i love the simplicity of it
So you are saying i should do all the cutting of the combustion chamber then measure the final average volume? How would i measure the volume?

And on that intake, were the injector holes just filled in with welds?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #41 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:12 pm

Oh i pulled the crank out. And i tell you what, them main bolts stank like something terrible when i cracked them loose. Idk what it was but it was bad.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #42 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:50 pm

brandoncw wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:You can use the bottom half of the stock EFI intake manifold to fabricate a multi carb plenum.
... on that intake, were the injector holes just filled in with welds?

On that intake pictured the lower used did not have the injector holes machined. It was built by my buddy (I helped a little with the welding.) He is a player in the automotive casting business and called in a favor to get some lowers with the injector hole machining station deleted. But if you want to plug the holes it is easy enough to turn some plugs and weld them shut or just plug weld them and then re-machine the mounting face to restore its flatness.

A very clever individual. He also built the 300 powered Pinto drag car I had the honor of driving a few times. Any time I hear somebody ask, "can I put a 300 in a yadda, yadda...?" I think of Pete's Pinto.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #43 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:58 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:On that intake pictured the lower used did not have the injector holes machined. It was built by my buddy (I helped a little with the welding.) He is a player in the automotive casting business and called in a favor to get some lowers with the injector hole machining station deleted. But if you want to plug the holes it is easy enough to turn some plugs and weld them shut or just plug weld them and then re-machine the mounting face to restore its flatness.

A very clever individual. He also built the 300 powered Pinto drag car I had the honor of driving a few times. Any time I hear somebody ask, "can I put a 300 in a yadda, yadda...?" I think of Pete's Pinto.


Connections like that must be nice. I might just take some scrap filler rod ends and get enought bundled together to fill the hole then fuse them together and to the intake and cut down the inside and fuse it together then make the intake nice and smooth
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #44 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:16 pm

brandoncw wrote:[So you are saying i should do all the cutting of the combustion chamber then measure the final average volume? How would i measure the volume?

The head needs to be finished including the valve job.
Here is a video showing the procedure and the tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7V40ZWNgCo

Here is a CC kit with the glass buret.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum- ... mit-racing

Here is the economy kit using a plastic flask in place of the glass buret
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-980180/overview/

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #45 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:34 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote:[So you are saying i should do all the cutting of the combustion chamber then measure the final average volume? How would i measure the volume?

The head needs to be finished including the valve job.
Here is a video showing the procedure and the tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7V40ZWNgCo

Here is a CC kit with the glass buret.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum- ... mit-racing

Here is the economy kit using a plastic flask in place of the glass buret
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-980180/overview/

I know the one from summit is already fairly cheap but i dont like spending money i dont have to spend. Couldnt i just use some plexi, a graduated cylinder and a syringe that i already have access to? Just fill the cylinder to a specific mark, remove fluid into the sealed chamber with syringe, and subtract the remaing cc from the original. For example i start with 70 cc in the cylinder. I fill the chamber and there is 10 cc left so i have a 60 cc chamber. And thanks, you are a huge help to me. I may be a pain in the a** asking questions but im just trying to learn as much as i can.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #46 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:39 pm

Yep That works. You only need 1 cc accuracy for what you are doing.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #47 by brandoncw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:08 pm

Ok well i have plenty of work to get done on this build so ill keep you posted as i go along. Ill be moving at a snails pace because my funds arent are big as id like them to be. I think most people are in the same boat. Thats why i like to do all the work i can do myself. Plus then i can take a little more pride in my work. Ill be taking apart the head tomorrow and just getting it cleaned up and put a straight edge on it.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #48 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:38 pm

That is a refreshing attitude in this age of catalog cars or having the pros build you something. Good luck with your project.
The head is flat enough if it has less than .003" warpage crossways or .006" lengthwise.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #49 by brandoncw » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:53 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:That is a refreshing attitude in this age of catalog cars or having the pros build you something. Good luck with your project.
The head is flat enough if it has less than .003" warpage crossways or .006" lengthwise.

Thanks for the tip :thumbup:
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #50 by pmuller9 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:02 am

After you get the head apart, would you mind taking some measurements.

Install an intake valve in the head with only the spring retainer and keepers.
With the retainer pulled up tight, measure the distance between the underside of the retainer and the spring seat in the head.

I'm looking for the installed height of the valve spring.
The EFI valves are 4.75" in length while the 300 carb head valves are 4.81"
Just need to know if the installed spring height is also different.

Measure how much intake valve lift it takes to have the top of the valve head even with the surface of the head.
Thanks

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