300 rebuild project

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guhfluh
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #101 by guhfluh » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:58 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Recommend this turbo cam.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0


It is very important that the cam is installed with the intake lobe center at 110* ATDC.

Want to keep the compression low because of the early closing intake valve of the turbo cam.
The KB S3117H heavy duty piston with a 30cc stepped dish will work
Did I miss anything?

Pmuller,

I have a question/concern about the Crower cam quoted here. It doesn't specifically pertain to only this one, as I have seen it in almost every cam card I look at that they offer. What is going on with their .050" duration numbers vs their opening and closing points? None of them seem to match because of their addition errors or opening and closing points being incorrect. Have you had a chance to measure one and see which of the measurements on the cards are incorrect?
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #102 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:34 pm

guhfluh wrote:Pmuller,

I have a question/concern about the Crower cam quoted here. It doesn't specifically pertain to only this one, as I have seen it in almost every cam card I look at that they offer. What is going on with their .050" duration numbers vs their opening and closing points? None of them seem to match because of their addition errors or opening and closing points being incorrect. Have you had a chance to measure one and see which of the measurements on the cards are incorrect?

Intake valve opening points can be before or after TDC. If the opening point is after TDC then the degree number is marked as a negative or in some cases like Crane the number is put in brackets.
The exhaust can close before or after TDC so in the case of the exhaust closing point, if it is before TDC then it is marked as negative or brackets.

So looking at the Crower turbo cam card, the .050" duration is from 5* atdc to 35* ABDC which is 210*.
The exahust is from 38* BBDC to 18* BTDC which is 200*
The intake lobe center is at 210*/2 + 5* ATDC which is 110* ATDC.
All is good.

Does this make sense?

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #103 by guhfluh » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:40 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
guhfluh wrote:Pmuller,

I have a question/concern about the Crower cam quoted here. It doesn't specifically pertain to only this one, as I have seen it in almost every cam card I look at that they offer. What is going on with their .050" duration numbers vs their opening and closing points? None of them seem to match because of their addition errors or opening and closing points being incorrect. Have you had a chance to measure one and see which of the measurements on the cards are incorrect?

Intake valve opening points can be before or after TDC. If the opening point is after TDC then the degree number is marked as a negative or in some cases like Crane the number is put in brackets.
The exhaust can close before or after TDC so in the case of the exhaust closing point, if it is before TDC then it is marked as negative or brackets.

So looking at the Crower turbo cam card, the .050" duration is from 5* atdc to 35* ABDC which is 210*.
The exahust is from 38* BBDC to 18* BTDC which is 200*
The intake lobe center is at 210*/2 + 5* ATDC which is 110* ATDC.
All is good.

Does this make sense?
Yes, kinda.

I don't quite understand as an example why they wouldn't express the intake as -5* BTDC instead of -5*ATDC when they mean +5*ATDC. They can keep the negative sign if they wish, but why change BTDC to ATDC as well?

I have had a couple sets of Crower cams that don't seem to run the way the cam card advertised and at .050" numbers suggest. Their cam cards were the same way and one even changed over the years for the same grind number. I haven't degreed them to find out exactly what is true, but I'm very curious.

Anyway, I know it's off topic, but since the card was here, I wanted to ask about it.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #104 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:37 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You can use the bottom half of the stock EFI intake manifold to fabricate a multi carb plenum.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lqenf6ztqv4y ... e.jpg?dl=0


If i did this with a single carb, wouldnt i have uneven fuel distribution?
If so, should i just go with a manufactured intake, or use a couple of smaller carbs, for example the "webbers" i mentioned in an earlier post? I would like to fabricate what i can for the satisfaction of doing my own work.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #105 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:13 pm

brandoncw wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:You can use the bottom half of the stock EFI intake manifold to fabricate a multi carb plenum.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lqenf6ztqv4y ... e.jpg?dl=0


If i did this with a single carb, wouldnt i have uneven fuel distribution?
If so, should i just go with a manufactured intake, or use a couple of smaller carbs, for example the "webbers" i mentioned in an earlier post? I would like to fabricate what i can for the satisfaction of doing my own work.


Will this manifold and carbs still be for turbocharging?

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #106 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:01 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Will this manifold and carbs still be for turbocharging?


I do still plan on a turbo build, if that is what your are asking.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #107 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:19 pm

A single carb in the middle of the plenum does have distribution problems but you only have one carb to convert to a blow-thru.
Two carbs will give you much better distribution but then there are two carbs to convert and you have to make or buy two hats and make a "Y" to connect them together.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #108 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:45 pm

pmuller9 wrote:A single carb in the middle of the plenum does have distribution problems but you only have one carb to convert to a blow-thru.
Two carbs will give you much better distribution but then there are two carbs to convert and you have to make or buy two hats and make a "Y" to connect them together.

so ill be much happier if i did two carbs, just gotta put in the extra work?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #109 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:49 pm

brandoncw wrote: so ill be much happier if i did two carbs, just gotta put in the extra work?

Yes

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #110 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:37 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote: so ill be much happier if i did two carbs, just gotta put in the extra work?

Yes

Any double carb recommendations then?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #111 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:21 pm

A couple of 2100s would be cheap and simple to work on.
A 1.08" venturi size will be enough but no bigger than 1.14"

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #112 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 am

pmuller9 wrote:A couple of 2100s would be cheap and simple to work on.
A 1.08" venturi size will be enough but no bigger than 1.14"

Looks like im going with a couple 1.14" venturi carb, the other seems difficult to find.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #113 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:26 pm

quick question, with the turbo build, how large should the plenum be? i have a design that puts me at 156 cu inches

Edit: I have read 1x to 1.5x the engine displacement is a good starting point. So i bumped up my measurements and got 312 cubic inches now. Will this work good?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #114 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:06 am

1X engine displacement will be enough for two 300 cfm 2 bbl carbs (1.14" 2100s) which is equivalent to a single 420 cfm 4 bbl carb.

Make sure the material thickness is enough to hold the amount of boost pressure you want to use X2 for margin.
Pressure test the plenum before using.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #115 by brandoncw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:26 am

pmuller9 wrote:1X engine displacement will be enough for two 300 cfm 2 bbl carbs (1.14" 2100s) which is equivalent to a single 420 cfm 4 bbl carb.

Make sure the material thickness is enough to hold the amount of boost pressure you want to use X2 for margin.
Pressure test the plenum before using.

Ok thanks ill post some pics tomorrow of my progress if i can
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #116 by brandoncw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:30 pm

ok pmuller9, I finally got paid. so now the most painful part is about to begin, buying everything, watching my numbers in the bank begin to shrink. I want to know are there any solid aluminum spacer plates for the auto lite 2100? Id like to weld them on and put studs in them, but I cant find any. If not I suppose ill just stack a few 3/16 aluminum plates and edge weld them and cut out the shape with the plasma, then refine with a carbide.

The hx35 is on the way, its a used genuine holset I snagged for 300. plan on putting a rebuild kit in it, then send off to be rebalanced. but that's for another time when the build is about over
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #117 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:30 pm

The 2100/2150 and Holley 2300 stud pattern dimensions are 5 1/8" x 3 1/2"
Holley shows the spacing as 5.16" x 3.46"
I would get the carbs first just to be sure about the exact spacing.

Google "2 barrel carburetor spacer plate"
Here is a partial listing from Summit
https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... =Ascending

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #118 by brandoncw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:47 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The 2100/2150 and Holley 2300 stud pattern dimensions are 5 1/8" x 3 1/2"
Holley shows the spacing as 5.16" x 3.46"
I would get the carbs first just to be sure about the exact spacing.

Google "2 barrel carburetor spacer plate"
Here is a partial listing from Summit
https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... =Ascending

My plan was to only cut out the ports and shape and manualy drill the holes, the plasma put a slight taper on holes. My plan to fabricate the mounts was to scan the gasket, upload it to the computer, and make it to scale. But make the ports about a 1/8 smaller and gasket match it.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #119 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:54 pm

My reply about carb spacer plates was because you asked about carburetor spacer plates?
Get me on the same page as you are. LOL
Thanks.

brandoncw wrote:ok pmuller9, I finally got paid. so now the most painful part is about to begin, buying everything, watching my numbers in the bank begin to shrink. I want to know are there any solid aluminum spacer plates for the auto lite 2100? Id like to weld them on and put studs in them, but I cant find any. If not I suppose ill just stack a few 3/16 aluminum plates and edge weld them and cut out the shape with the plasma, then refine with a carbide.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #120 by brandoncw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:31 pm

pmuller9 wrote:My reply about carb spacer plates was because you asked about carburetor spacer plates?
Get me on the same page as you are. LOL
Thanks.


Im not sure what page im on lmfao. All of them perhaps?

I need something to secure the carb to the plenum, i dont think the 3/16 aluminum sheet metal the plenum is made from will cut it. Does that help a little lol
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #121 by pmuller9 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:15 pm

brandoncw wrote:I need something to secure the carb to the plenum, i dont think the 3/16 aluminum sheet metal the plenum is made from will cut it. Does that help a little lol

As you can see from the Summit listings, the aluminum carb spacers are on the expensive side.
It would be cheaper to get an aluminum rem piece about 10" square, .500" thick and cut out 2 spacers.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #122 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:00 pm

Update, the engine block is sent off to be cleaned and machined, its getting bored and new cam bearings intalled.
I picked up a bottle of 100% lye crystals for $15 it should treat 10 gallons of water to clean all my rods and bearing caps, and other iron bolts and parts.

Crower says cam is $121.30. That seems like a steal for a custom cam
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #123 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:42 am

The aluminum intake is coming along nicely. Gotta tack up a couple more pieces then i can weld it all up.
For not really knowing the exact spacing of the runners, i think i did a pretty good job of getting it pretty close, nothing a carbide wont fix.
I also got all the injector ports plugged good
Will i need that other hole for anything? Any sensors?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #124 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:20 am

Nice job
Are you welding the plenum on or bolting it to the runners?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #125 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:51 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Nice job
Are you welding the plenum on or bolting it to the runners?

Im welding around the inside of the runners after i flare them out a little. And then several 2 or 3 inch welds on the bottom Makes my life easier to me.

Got the sides cut out and got the majority of the plenum welded
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #126 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:12 pm

brandoncw wrote: Will i need that other hole for anything? Any sensors?

See, now I'd be just devious enough to turn that boss into something that everyone asks about.
Mount a weird sensor on it and plug the wires into an overflo bottle?
Put a blocked off pipe fitting in it and "Tee" it directly into the fuel line??
Mount a boost gage in there - preferably one pegged at about 30 psi???

You get the idea.
Keep 'em guessing!
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #127 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:48 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
brandoncw wrote: Will i need that other hole for anything? Any sensors?

See, now I'd be just devious enough to turn that boss into something that everyone asks about.
Mount a weird sensor on it and plug the wires into an overflo bottle?
Put a blocked off pipe fitting in it and "Tee" it directly into the fuel line??
Mount a boost gage in there - preferably one pegged at about 30 psi???

You get the idea.
Keep 'em guessing!

so kinda the same idea as this??
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #128 by pmuller9 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:58 pm

No post
Last edited by pmuller9 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #129 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:55 pm

brandoncw wrote:You get the idea.
Keep 'em guessing!

so kinda the same idea as this??[/quote]
That's it.

On one (rather controversial, legality-wise) car I built I had two toggle switches on the instrument panel. One read "illegal electronic devices", another read "GPS satellite uplink". P.S. They never did figure out what I really was doing.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #130 by pmuller9 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:29 pm

brandoncw wrote: Will i need that other hole for anything? Any sensors?

On the back end of the plenum weld a 1/4" or 3/8" thick plate large enough for four 1/8 pipe threaded holes providing there will be enough room between the back of the plenum and the firewall for fitting and lines.
You may want to just make the whole back plenum wall thick enough for threaded holes.

The reason for the four 1/8" pipe threaded hole:
You will need manifold pressure for your boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
A line for a boost gauge.
You may also need a line to a BOV.
One spare in case you decide to run something like a water/methanol injection system later on.

I never "T" lines together. This way if one line fails it doesn't effect another line.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #131 by brandoncw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:09 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote:
The reason for the four 1/8" pipe threaded hole:
You will need manifold pressure for your boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
A line for a boost gauge.
You may also need a line to a BOV.
One spare in case you decide to run something like a water/methanol injection system later on.

I never "T" lines together. This way if one line fails it doesn't effect another line.


I was talking about the hole where a sensor went on the efi engine, but i will add that to the back. I dont belive i have ever seen 1/8" pipe fittings, do you mean 1/4"?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #132 by pmuller9 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:38 pm

brandoncw wrote: I dont belive i have ever seen 1/8" pipe fittings, do you mean 1/4"?

I'm sure you have. The hex size is actually 7/16"
Here is an example:
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/441394-131280

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #133 by brandoncw » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:27 am

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote: I dont belive i have ever seen 1/8" pipe fittings, do you mean 1/4"?

I'm sure you have. The hex size is actually 7/16"
Here is an example:
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/441394-131280

Ah gotcha, when you said pipe fitting, i was thinking the black steel plumbing pipes, not hose nipples lol
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #134 by brandoncw » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:51 pm

The intake is almost done, I got to get a carbide and open up the runner ends a bit to weld, and i have to get the fittings. then all thats left is to put the lid on it and paint it.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #135 by brandoncw » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:22 pm

is this the correct mounting gasket for a ford 2100 carb?

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-delivery/ ... 6_461303_0
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #136 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:50 pm

brandoncw wrote:is this the correct mounting gasket for a ford 2100 carb?

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-delivery/ ... 6_461303_0

Some of the 2100 carbs have a curved base. You should wait until you have the carbs in hand to see which base they have.
https://www.autozone.com/fuel-delivery/ ... id=6190165

You can make a simple rectangular mounting plate that will cover both the 2100 and 2150 carb bases and use the gasket for the bolt pattern.
I would still wait till I had the carbs to get that exact bolt pattern spacing and the correct base gasket.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #137 by brandoncw » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:29 pm

I have a few more questions to fire at you too, since i have to buy a cylinder head ( i used my good one to replace a cracked one) should i buy a carb heard or the efi head? I read on the efi performance thread that the carb head isnt prone to the exhaust cracks like the efi head and that it takes less work to get larger valves in it. In my mind that seems like the way to go, what is your thought
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #138 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:45 pm

Get a carb head.
The larger combustion chamber makes it easier to get a lower compression ratio for turbocharging.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #139 by brandoncw » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:00 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Get a carb head.
The larger combustion chamber makes it easier to get a lower compression ratio for turbocharging.

Ok ill add that to my shopping list :lol:

Next question, i was told that orileys will take in cranks and ship them to their springfield store to have them turned. I called them and they said something like it would take a week or two and that they charge just over $100 for the 300 crank, that is about a 1/3 of the price of a local shop i called. But of course they were expensive about everything i asked about, 120 for engine bake, 210 for bore, 340 for crank, 200 for valves. I think they deal mostly with top notch race engines lmao.
Anyways, do you think Orileys would do decent work?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #140 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:50 pm

Which shop are you going to use to do the machine work on the block and head?
Looks like there is a shop in Columbia and several around St Louis.

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