FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

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FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #1 by brandoncw » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:30 pm

Hi all its been a while since ive been on here. I left off a while ago on my turbo 300 build. But i have not forgotten about it, The Army has taken up my whole summer and will still be taking up my time until November. then ill get some time at home, hopefully. But the good news is i have a good bit of money saved up due to only being able to buy soap, detergent, toothpaste, and razors lmfao.

Anyhow, i was planning on running dual 2bbl carbs. But now, i am thinking of going EFI using a system such as FiTech which handles up to 25 psi of boost. I am using an HX35 turbo and was originally going to use 10-15 psi. But the internal waste-gate goes to 21 psi. Would a 300 handle that much boost on custom pistons and rods, heavier springs, and larger push-rods? or would i need a crank to, assuming the block can even take it

And most importantly would a single 4bbl Throttle body fuel injection system work better with boost over dual 2bbl?
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #2 by Harte3 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:32 pm

viewforum.php?f=22

Try your EFI/Turbo questions there.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:00 am

brandoncw wrote:Anyhow, i was planning on running dual 2bbl carbs. But now, i am thinking of going EFI using a system such as FiTech which handles up to 25 psi of boost. I am using an HX35 turbo and was originally going to use 10-15 psi. But the internal waste-gate goes to 21 psi.


You don't want to be stuck with having to run high boost. You want to be able to vary max boost.
Stay with your original plan of using an external waste gate which will allow you to vary the boost.

Yes, a FiTech system would be much easier to setup and use.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #4 by brandoncw » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:29 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
brandoncw wrote:Anyhow, i was planning on running dual 2bbl carbs. But now, i am thinking of going EFI using a system such as FiTech which handles up to 25 psi of boost. I am using an HX35 turbo and was originally going to use 10-15 psi. But the internal waste-gate goes to 21 psi.


You don't want to be stuck with having to run high boost. You want to be able to vary max boost.
Stay with your original plan of using an external waste gate which will allow you to vary the boost.

Yes, a FiTech system would be much easier to setup and use.

I did still plan on using an external waste gate, i was going to do initial start up at about 10 psi then let the system "self learn". Ive done decided if i do go this route ill probably use the Go EFI 4 or 8 Power Adder by FiTech. It supports between 200-650 (4) or 250-1200 (8) HP, 25 psi boost, and is Nitrous ready, if i so decide to go that route. Its a bit pricey at $1400, but i think it will put a grin on my face.
Only question is if these engines are 20 psi capable?
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:46 pm

The Go EFI Power Adder 600HP is all you will need and all the engine will handle at this level.

Whether or not a 300 six can handle 20 lbs of boost is a trick question.
A stock head 300 six can get away with 20 lbs of boost for a short period of time because the head restriction is only allowing so much air to pass into the cylinder.

Add a fully ported big valve head with a large cam where the base engine has a at least 250 hp and add 20 lbs of boost, now the bottom end better have some good forged parts.

It also depends on how long the engine is intended to work at high boost levels.
A few here have had 300s at those boost levels just to go fast for a bit but if you are going to work the engine say towing heavy loads for long periods of time then the engine needs special attention is a lot of areas.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #6 by brandoncw » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:15 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The Go EFI Power Adder 600HP is all you will need and all the engine will handle at this level.

Whether or not a 300 six can handle 20 lbs of boost is a trick question.
A stock head 300 six can get away with 20 lbs of boost for a short period of time because the head restriction is only allowing so much air to pass into the cylinder.

Add a fully ported big valve head with a large cam where the base engine has a at least 250 hp and add 20 lbs of boost, now the bottom end better have some good forged parts.

It also depends on how long the engine is intended to work at high boost levels.
A few here have had 300s at those boost levels just to go fast for a bit but if you are going to work the engine say towing heavy loads for long periods of time then the engine needs special attention is a lot of areas.

the engine is not going to be used in a towing application. It is going in a 67 mustang. Bassically will be a weekend car, drive arount town some and moslty go to some shows. And maybe the occasional street race :roll:
The head is going to be an 85 head, port & polished, 1.94" intake, 1.60" exhaust valves, the pistons are undecided what company, but they are going to be custom made forged, "H" beam forged rods, and im hoping for a stock crank that is just trued, turned and balanced (if not ill just use less boost, dont want to push my luck on stock parts)

I plan on using this cam https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:29 pm

If they are back in stock use the Molnar CH6385NTB8-A "H" beam connecting rods.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #8 by jason832 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:10 am

If I remember correctly the fitech systems can handle more power than the rating says. Its just rated a bit on the low side. The 400hp can do 500 or something like that and so on for the rest.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:06 am

pmuller9 wrote:If they are back in stock use the Molnar CH6385NTB8-A "H" beam connecting rods.


I just called and they have one set remaining

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #10 by brandoncw » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:57 am

pmuller9 wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:If they are back in stock use the Molnar CH6385NTB8-A "H" beam connecting rods.


I just called and they have one set remaining


Thanks! Hopefully i can get them ordered with an online payment without a debit card, im still waiting on my new one to get in the mail. If not, hopefully its not already taken.

Update: Turns out i can set up a paypal without my card and use my bank info instead. So ill let you guys know if i get lucky enough to get the last ones
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:46 am

Tell Them Paul Muller sent you.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #12 by MechRick » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:48 pm

I would try to chose a system that would allow for some user flexibility. The ability to plug in larger injectors or tune with a laptop for safe running under high boost levels at a minimum.

The problem with high boost levels is choosing just enough injector to supply the needed fuel at WOT and high boost/RPM, without dropping the injector 'on' time to the point that the opening time (usually ~ 1 mS) begins to interfere with idle quality.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #13 by brandoncw » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 pm

MechRick wrote:The 400HP FITECH systems use a 1 bar map sensor and will not be useable under boost.

I wasn't reffering to that model, The GO EFI 4 is a 4 injector 200-600 hp system capable of 25 psi.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #14 by guhfluh » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:17 am

I doubt the 25psi claim until I see it proven. No MAP sensors I know of off hand limit at that pressure and FITech also claims a 2.5bar sensor, which isn't 25psi. It's either or, not both. 2.5bar is common and equal to 21psig.

Both the Holley Sniper and the FITech units have the ability to change injectors and tune for the change, if by chance you need a little more injector.

When using the 4 injector models, there shouldn't be any issue running into injector minimum opening times, even going with 210lb injectors. There's only 4, and they're run "sequentially", so pulsewidth at idle won't be as bad as batch port.

Also, on your HX35, you can lower the preload on the wastegate actuator and test it with compressed air to see where it opens without back pressure help. If it's still not low enough, you can get a lower opening actuator. Even with no actuator and the gate open, you may run into creep with the internal and if you're going to try to use it, you need to port the opening below the flapper to almost the size of the flapper. Drilling through or removing the scroll divider helps also, but negates the use of the twin scroll for spool benefits. Porting the wastegate opening also lowers wastegate boost opening point because of backpressure area ratio.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #15 by brandoncw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:38 am

guhfluh wrote:I doubt the 25psi claim until I see it proven. No MAP sensors I know of off hand limit at that pressure and FITech also claims a 2.5bar sensor, which isn't 25psi. It's either or, not both. 2.5bar is common and equal to 21psi.


25 psi is equal to 1.7xxx bar and 2.5 bar is equal to 36.2xxx psi
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:37 pm

brandoncw wrote:
guhfluh wrote:I doubt the 25psi claim until I see it proven. No MAP sensors I know of off hand limit at that pressure and FITech also claims a 2.5bar sensor, which isn't 25psi. It's either or, not both. 2.5bar is common and equal to 21psi.


25 psi is equal to 1.7xxx bar and 2.5 bar is equal to 36.2xxx psi


Yes but you are talking about absolute pressure.
The 25 psi rating is using gauge pressure which is absolute - 1 atmosphere.

14.7 x 2.5 BAR = 36.75 psi absolute or 36.75 - 14.7 = 22 psi gauge.


25 psi gauge + 14.7 = 39.7 psi absolute or 39.7/14.7 = 2.7 BAR

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #17 by brandoncw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:47 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Yes but you are talking about absolute pressure.
The 25 psi rating is using gauge pressure which is absolute - 1 atmosphere.

14.7 x 2.5 BAR = 36.75 psi absolute or 36.75 - 14.7 = 22 psi gauge.


25 psi gauge + 14.7 = 39.7 psi absolute or 39.7/14.7 = 2.7 BAR


Ahh, ok. That makes more sense now. I guess its probably a marketing scheme? Either way it makes no real difference to my build plans
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #18 by brandoncw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:57 pm

Ok so the deal is closing soon with the last set of Molnar H beam rods. What mods will i have to make to make work with my crankshaft? I know ill have to have custom pistons made to fit the small end.

The rods are now officially mine, just need to know what to do with them. :hmmm: At least ill have two spares if anything goes wrong too :nod:
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #19 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:27 pm

What size is the big end journal? Stock 300 journals have a stress riser at the fillet radius and it needs to be enlarged (by reducing journal diameter) for improved reliability.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #20 by brandoncw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:13 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What size is the big end journal? Stock 300 journals have a stress riser at the fillet radius and it needs to be enlarged (by reducing journal diameter) for improved reliability.

the big end diameter is advertised as 2.225"
the width at the big end is 0.992
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:46 pm

The Molnar rods use the SBC rod bearings for a 2.100" crank journal.

The 300 six crank journal will need to be turned down from 2.123" to 2.100" which gives the machinist the opportunity to make a small radius at the journal ends to relieve the stress risers FTF was referring to.

The Molnar rods have a large bevel on one side of the big end bore and a small bevel on the other side.
The small bevel side shouldn't present a clearance problem with a small crank journal radius.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #22 by brandoncw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:53 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The Molnar rods use the SBC rod bearings for a 2.100" crank journal.

The 300 six crank journal will need to be turned down from 2.123" to 2.100" which gives the machinist the opportunity to make a small radius at the journal ends to relieve the stress risers FTF was referring to.

The Molnar rods have a large bevel on one side of the big end bore and a small bevel on the other side.
The small bevel side shouldn't present a clearance problem with a small crank journal radius.

and then id order chevy bearing to go with correct?
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 pm

brandoncw wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:The Molnar rods use the SBC rod bearings for a 2.100" crank journal.

The 300 six crank journal will need to be turned down from 2.123" to 2.100" which gives the machinist the opportunity to make a small radius at the journal ends to relieve the stress risers FTF was referring to.

The Molnar rods have a large bevel on one side of the big end bore and a small bevel on the other side.
The small bevel side shouldn't present a clearance problem with a small crank journal radius.

and then id order chevy bearing to go with correct?


Yes. Talk with your machinist about what bearing type to get. If the rod bearings are torqued in the rods first then the machinist can measure the bearing ID and turn the crank journals for the correct bearing clearance.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #24 by brandoncw » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:31 am

Im not really following on what the "stress riser" is. From my understanding it seems like its a small step-up on each edge of the journals?
And what company do you recommend to make the pistons? I know i still need to figure out my final combustion chamber volume so i can figure out what my dish volume would be.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #25 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:00 am

brandoncw wrote:Im not really following on what the "stress riser" is.


OK, saving all the engineering-ese speak, what it means is the stock crank will crack at the #6 rod journal if left alone. If ground for a smaller diameter with a larger cheek radius it will live longer.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #26 by brandoncw » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:49 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:OK, saving all the engineering-ese speak, what it means is the stock crank will crack at the #6 rod journal if left alone. If ground for a smaller diameter with a larger cheek radius it will live longer.

if you happen to have a pic available that would be great, if not, im sure my machinist will know exactly what you are talking about lol.

I contacted Ross pistons for prices since they were the first ones to pop up on google. I am expecting a pretty price tag from them though, but we will see.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:34 pm

Ross makes a good piston.
Most of the piston manufacturers will be close to the same in piston price.
Last time I checked it was around $900 for six pistons with pins and pin fit (with no options) for a 2618 alloy piston.

Here is some explanation of the crank journal radius or fillet.
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answe ... let-radius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgVfvfrbhc

The Molnar rods were designed for a V8 so there is one large chamfer on one side of the big end bore and a small chamfer on the other side as shown in the video.
The straight six rod has small chamfers on both sides because the rod journals have very little radius fillets.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:12 pm

Don't assume rods with a small chamfer will clear a large fillet radius. Check.
I always chamfer both sides in a rotary vise on a Bridgeport.
I've had them contact.
Also, be sure to check for proper side clearance on an off-the-shelf aftermarket rod. I've had "issues" with that too.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #29 by brandoncw » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:30 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Don't assume rods with a small chamfer will clear a large fillet radius. Check.
I always chamfer both sides in a rotary vise on a Bridgeport.
I've had them contact.
Also, be sure to check for proper side clearance on an off-the-shelf aftermarket rod. I've had "issues" with that too.

Oh definitely. Im not going to just slap some expensive things together and hope it stays together with hopes and dreams :nono: Measure twice, build once :nod:
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #30 by bubba22349 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:05 pm

AutoTec pistons are worth looking at too seems to be quite reasonable. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

http://racetecpistons.com/pages/autotec.php
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #31 by brandoncw » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:57 pm

bubba22349 wrote:AutoTec pistons are worth looking at too seems to be quite reasonable. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

http://racetecpistons.com/pages/autotec.php


Thanks, i sent them an email as well as wiseco.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #32 by brandoncw » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:14 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Ross makes a good piston.
Most of the piston manufacturers will be close to the same in piston price.
Last time I checked it was around $900 for six pistons with pins and pin fit (with no options) for a 2618 alloy piston.

Here is some explanation of the crank journal radius or fillet.
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answe ... let-radius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgVfvfrbhc

The Molnar rods were designed for a V8 so there is one large chamfer on one side of the big end bore and a small chamfer on the other side as shown in the video.
The straight six rod has small chamfers on both sides because the rod journals have very little radius fillets.

thanks for the information, if those links arent in a sticky somewhere they ought to be. :thumbup: :nod:

UPDATE: I got a reply from Ross Pistons today, they estimated me at $1000 and some change for a set of pistons, rings, and wrist pins. a little pricey to me so Ill keep looking but also keep them in mind. I asked if they do a military discount, I doubt they do, but hey, its worth a shot.
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #33 by brandoncw » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Well ill be damned, Ross Pistons does offer a military discount. Seem to offer about a 9% discount based on my math.

1034.88-942.66=92.22
1034.88*X=92.22
92/1034.88=.08911= 8.911%
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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #34 by deere114 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:11 am

I use megasquirt and like it, can't give any insight on the fitech other then quite a few people seem to be using it with success. I do run a hx35 on a stock 4.9. The stock internal wastegate is inadequate, running an 8 psi spring in the actuator I see 20 psi if im in it long enough. As far as the engine holding up I managed to push out the STOCK head gasket when my wastegate reference line popped off and the boost pegged my map sensor. Found the efi cylinder head was cracked when I pulled it apart for arp studs and felpro 1024. The bottom end was fine. I'm now building a new engine that will make considerably more power (ported head, cam, larger turbo, ect) with the stock crank, rods, and speed pro hyper pistons. We'll see what happens! I should note the stock engine was also exclusively run on e85, which tends to be a little more forgiving at those boost levels.

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Re: FiTech (or other FI systems) used with boost.

Post #35 by brandoncw » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:56 am

deere114 wrote:I use megasquirt and like it, can't give any insight on the fitech other then quite a few people seem to be using it with success. I do run a hx35 on a stock 4.9. The stock internal wastegate is inadequate, running an 8 psi spring in the actuator I see 20 psi if im in it long enough. As far as the engine holding up I managed to push out the STOCK head gasket when my wastegate reference line popped off and the boost pegged my map sensor. Found the efi cylinder head was cracked when I pulled it apart for arp studs and felpro 1024. The bottom end was fine. I'm now building a new engine that will make considerably more power (ported head, cam, larger turbo, ect) with the stock crank, rods, and speed pro hyper pistons. We'll see what happens! I should note the stock engine was also exclusively run on e85, which tends to be a little more forgiving at those boost levels.


Thanks for the info, My engine build is pretty much entirely custom or Frankenstein. Im using a 94 efi block and crank, BBC connecting rods, custom pistons, custom cam, Scorpion rockers, 85-86 carb head, either a custom turbo header or the efi manifolds, Offy intake, and a few other things.
Skilled labor isn't cheap, Cheap labor isn't skilled.

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