CYL. HEAD WELDING

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BCOWANWHEELS
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CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #1 by BCOWANWHEELS » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:38 am

WELL ITS TIME TO WELD MY 2 CARB ADAPTERS TO MY 250 STOCK LOG HEAD. I MACHINED FLAT SPOTS LEVEL WITH STOCK CARB MOUNT. MY QUESTION IS HOW AND WITH WHAT ARE YOU FELLAS WELDING THESE ON . I WAS PLANNING ON USEING CHARCOAL AND A PROPANE WEED BURNER TO GET ENTIRE HEAD UP TO TEMP THEN BRAZE OR SILVER SOLDIER THE 2 STEEL PLATES ON THE LOG INTAKE A LITTLE AT A TIME . AFTER WELDING PUT THE HEAD BACK ON THE HEAT COVER IT WITH SAND OR WELDERS BLANKET,AND LET IT REAL SLOWLY COOL TILL ROOM TEMP. ANYONE DONE THIS OR ANOTHER WAY............... I NEED SOME HELP / TIPS.
THANKS
BOB
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #2 by xctasy » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:28 am

BCOWANWHEELS wrote:Well it’s time to weld my 2 carb adapters to my 250 stock log head. I machined flat spots level with stock carb mount. My question is how and with what are you fellas welding these on. I was planning on using charcoal and a propane weed burner to get entire head up to temp then braze or silver soldier the 2 steel plates on the log intake a little at a time . After welding put the head back on the heat cover it with sand or welders blanket, and let it real slowly cool till room temp. Anyone done this or another way............... I need some help / tips.
Thanks
Bob
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.


IMHO, Use the stock 1-bbl hole, bolt on a flat plate the same 3-1/2 degrees slope, and bolt on two other 2-bbl holes with the correct 97 stud pattern.


Don't weld it, don't pre heat it. Add a steel plate, bolt it down to make four new holes that suit your Stromberg 97's, and then apply JB Weld to seal any of the margins.


Unbolt the orginal 250 or 200 carb.

Image

The plate you can buy finsihed machined, and you bolt it on the orginal carb hole.

Image

What you should do is something like this,


Image

but without welding

http://www.locknstitch.com/cast-iron-welding.html wrote:
Cast Iron Welding

We want to share some truths about cast iron welding with you. These truths are easy to understand, extremely important to know and yet, ironically, hardly known in the welding world.

About 40% of the casting repair work that we perform in our service department is performed by some type of welding procedure. Even though we are the world leader and only complete supplier of metal stitching supplies in the world, we are also the only company who will actually tell you the truth without bias. Some repairs require oven welding and some require metal stitching.

The most important thing for you to understand is that electric welding on cast iron is actually the very worst decision you could make to attempt to repair your cracked cast iron part. If you want to make a complete mess of your part, go ahead and arc weld it with nickel rod. Cast iron cannot stretch and withstand the contraction and hardening caused by cast welding with preheating below 1200 ° F. The brand of welding rod does not make a very big difference. It's the heat that causes the changes to the cast iron itself. Sure the nickel weld is machineable but the cast iron will become as hard as a drill bit or tap and therefore will prevent the proper machining that is often required. 50% of the casting repairs we see have been arc welded on with disastrous results often costing the owner at least twice as much to repair properly. Cast iron welding should not be attempted even by experienced welders without years of high temperature oven welding training. Cast iron requires preheat of at least 900 ° F. for brazing and 1300 ° F. for fusion welding.





See Gary J. Reed's 80 page slide show.

LOCK-N-STITCH
Inc. Casting Repair Specialists
1015 S Soderquist Rd Turlock CA 95380
800-736-8261 209-632-2345 Fax
209-632-1740 http://www.locknstitch.com


http://www.locknstitch.com/precision-me ... ching.html

Cast Iron Welding Supporting Material

Watch this powerpoint presentation for an in-depth look at cast iron welding.

http://www.locknstitch.com/files/the_se ... ng_new.ppt

(PPT - 29.2MB)
GRMC White Paper
http://www.locknstitch.com/pdf/gmrc_white_paper.pdf

(PDF - 1.59MB)
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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chad
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direct mount dwn draft carbs

Post #3 by chad » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:14 am

thats some pretty hot !
It's still not as hot as the welding materiel during welding.
Looks like some interesting reading (will have at it soon).

Broncowanwheel:
Looking around here I see the best results (see pic in a site search) from:
a build up 1st;
a machining;
adapter placement'n drilling for carb.

Not sure but the last operations of the 3 may B done separately (as there R two periods for the milling passes).

EDIT:
ahhh, they don't recommend welding (as I said, that's hotter than the cast i. gets).
This co. recommends what I call brazing - an ox. acet. braze but on a cast i. head as hot as X cites above...good luck on that!)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #4 by BCOWANWHEELS » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:05 pm

I THINK PREHEAT IN OVEN AND OXY ACCT. BRAZE WELDING THEN RETURN TO HEAT ( OVEN ) LET COOL REAL SLOWLY. I,VE WELDED FOR ALMOST 40 YRS AND THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE . JB WELD IS OUT OF THE QUESTION AS CARB, ADAPTER PLATE , VIBRATION , HEAT WILL CAUSE FAILURE. JMO - I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYBODYS HELP AND THOUGHTS
BOB
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #5 by fast64ranchero » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:29 am

I've tried Brazing with standard Fluxed brazing rod, it didn't work. If you can Tig, use Silicone Bronze filler rod.
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #6 by BCOWANWHEELS » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:11 pm

if I tig it theres a lot more heat involved, like 500 degrees
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #7 by xctasy » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:47 pm

BCOWANWHEELS wrote:I think preheat in oven and oxy acct. Braze welding then return to heat ( oven ) let cool real slowly. I,ve welded for almost 40 yrs and this is my experience . Jb weld is out of the question as carb, adapter plate , vibration , heat will cause failure. Jmo - i really appreciate everybodys help and thoughts
Bob


I wouldn't use anything else But JB Weld.

JB Weld, or what we call down here Devcon, is just fine if its supported as a mastic with iron tie wire such as you'd use for wiring Rebar into place for strip founds in construction. You can use it in the most vibration prone environs if its laced. I've used it when boring out carb venturis on 4 cylinder engines, the worst situation for vibration around. It has the some coefficent of expansion as cement or cast iron. Anything else, you pumping heat into to it. If your worried about it, sleave it.


Linc's 200's ideas
Image

Image


I did a whole log intake in JB weld with tie wire with machined plates and thimble inserts to lash it all together.

Image


I.ve chemsetted tall buildings with epoxy morter, including reinforcement to cement structures which Policemen and SAS forces hang from. Then founds get tested with a 10 ton center hole pullout ram, and they don't yield...they take out the grounding layer just like a weld does, but without any heat applied.

xctasy wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:Did you get any more done on this 3x2 project?

Yeah, I set up and intermediate NCHO-2V Adaptor which is true to the Lincs200 ideal.

It uses an extra out board intake runner, two of the machined adaptors to form two distinct barrels, and its able to create multiple port injection, CFI and/or an Liquid Propane Gas entry point. So its got the stationary engine, CARB and the first port EFI Log head entry pints covered off for all three types of the cast iron log head.

After I've made that work, I will sell another top plate that allows 3 2-bbl carbs, which will be the NCHO-6V

Here are the basics in alloy.
ImageImageImageImage


ImageImage
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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adaptalog

Post #8 by chad » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:07 pm

dat's 'pane w/o pain !
:nono: :arg:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #9 by Econoline » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:48 pm

I'm going to silicon braze mine once I locate a new head without a crack. I'm going to build a box, fill the bottom with dry sand. Flux the plate and intake patch, put the head into the gas bbq and get it as hot as it will get, then, while still in the bbq, go over it slowly with oxy/acet to bring it up further, then heat then reflux and heat the intake area and plate up to brazing temp and braze on the plate. Then chuck it into the box and fill the box the rest of the way with dry sand, wait a day or two then have it magnefluxed and cross my fingers :)

Brazing is always better than welding cast imo
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #10 by chad » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:38 pm

I'd worry abt having different parts of that head B at different temps. I think that is what causes problems. I have done forge welding (just "blacksmith artistry") & cast reacts poorly in big chunks like our heads. For this, it's beyond my equipment, so should stay out of it, but to wish good luck.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #11 by BCOWANWHEELS » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:38 pm

ECONOLINE, I THINK YOU GOT IT
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #12 by Econoline » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 pm

Alternatively, I may just build with braze in the low spots and have the area milled like here:

Image

I'm going fuel injected TBI, so I'm not concerned about keeping the proper 3 deg angle for the float bowl to be level. I'm also going to silicon bronze braze in a pre-fitted 3-4 exhaust port divider while I'm at it.

Chad, bronze brazing temp is somewhere around 1900F degrees. So even @ 900F for the pre and post heat the area brazed will be significantly hotter. It's also important to note that the areas to be brazed should be dressed with a file or bur and not an abrasive/grinding wheel or sand paper as they will contaminate the surface. I think it's also pretty important to have the head chemically dipped, not one of the new enviro-cleaning methods, to get as much oil out of the casting as possible. Oil will screw things up.

Another method I've considered trying is to use my mig and some largish sil-bronze wire and try and slowly build the areas needed in a "stacking dimes" approach w/o preheating, I could control the heat by doing it slowly over the course of a day or even days. I would need a bottle of 100% Argon which I don't have, but my boss has expressed interest in buying the bottle to do bronze repairs for boats at work. I still have the last cleaned head that failed the magneflux I can practice with. Porosity may be a problem with this method if it even works.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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direct mount 2v carb

Post #13 by chad » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:02 pm

Thanks, Seth.
Most of us know that pic as 1 of the few well done heads. The 'filling low spots" was done B4 the 1st mill passes
(the very 1st operation in the whole proceedure). Hopefully Broncowheels will C it.

Here's a Q I've hada while.
Can the carb B mounted to what we C in the pic w/o any adapter? Many place an adapter on there I believe.
Y choose direct mount with an adapter v no adapter? Adapter makes easier swap thru multiple carp applications
(1 day a webber, nother a holley 5200, nother carter 4v, etc)?

Thnx~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #14 by Econoline » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:28 pm

Not enough bolt pattern without an adapter plate of some kind.

As I understood the article they did a preliminary cut on the area to get close, identify and brazed in the low spots. Then finished it up with a another further milling.
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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #15 by Econoline » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Bob, what are you doing with the head? I noticed you said "2 CARB ADAPTERS". Are you doing a tri or dual carb setup?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #16 by BCOWANWHEELS » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:44 pm

I milled 2 flat spots similar to econolines pic,s. then I cnc cut 2 steel cold rolled plates 1/2 in thick which I,am going to braze on the machined areas of the log intake area. I,am going to run 2 ford holley 2bbl flat head v8 carbs 94,s . there done already. gonna make a fire box to put charcoal briquettes in to heat entire head. workin on this now.. might use propane also as heat source. I,ll try to get some pic,s.
bob

p/s
I had the head shot peened cleaned inside n out, mag checked also. looks brand new.
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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cast log WELDING for direct mount

Post #17 by chad » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:49 am

there R some rods "Muggery" (spelling) they claim U don't hafta pre heat the cast,
can't vouch for them - see a utube vid.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #18 by BCOWANWHEELS » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:03 am

I,VE LOOKED INTO THE MUGGY WELD PRODUCTS LIKE BRAZING RODS AND SILVER SOLDIER. IMO NOTHING SPECIAL THAT A REGULAR WELDING OUTFIT DOESNT HAVE. PREHEAT IS A MUST IMO.
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #19 by Econoline » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:36 am

Good Luck! :thumbup:
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #20 by BCOWANWHEELS » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:35 pm

I just might hollow out a place in the dirt, line it a couple times with alum foil, fill it with a big bag of charcoal, fire it up then lower head into it,cover it, use heat sticks to get temp right , have it prepped to weld then weld it. then return it to heat with cover and let it slowly cool. gonna do a dry run on a sbc head b4 I try my 250 head.
bob
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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #21 by Econoline » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:35 am

That sounds like a good plan, I think you're going to need it real hot though. The last thing you want is the earth sucking it cold at night. File it hot and flux?
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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #22 by BCOWANWHEELS » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 am

GOT A CORE BAD HEAD TODAY TO EXPERIMENT ON. GOT IT AT MY SANDBLASTER NOW. MORE TO COME ASAP
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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Re: CYL. HEAD WELDING

Post #23 by BCOWANWHEELS » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:19 am

update.............
finally figured out how to make a CHEAP hot box or oven to preheat my head and reheat after welding on the cheap............
rounded up a 120 lb metal grease barrel which axle grease came in. gonna cut it to length of head plus 2 inchs of the length of my 250 head, then weld a thin metal end cap over the open end. then split the barrel length wise, weld 2 cheap hinges so haves can be rejoined opening n closing. use 1/2 in rebar to make a grate inside to hold head. cut a few air holes so charcoal will burn. fill it with large bag of charcoal, put some alum. foil on grate to keep head clean. screw in a couple eye bolts in head to pick up head when hot, use cherry picker. gonna do a dry run on a cracked head to try it out. also gonna have a friend use a propane weed burner on head while head is out during brazing. thoughts............
I BELIEVE IN JOHN 3:16 SINCE OCTOBER OF 1975 AND NEVER REGRETTED A SECOND OF IT.

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