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Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

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Simonsalz
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Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #1 by Simonsalz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:13 am

Hello, my name is Simon and I’m new to this group, but I am having an issue with my ford 200. I keep having rear main neoprene seal tear on the bottom half (near 7 o’clock position if looking at the crank (also it is a felpro seal and they couldn’t help me much also)). The local machinest says everything is within spec but if finding it hard to beleive and I may be forced to go with the old rope seal. But any advice on which seal to use or what to do?

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #2 by wsa111 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:05 pm

Welcome aboard Simon, did you remove the pin in the seal area on the tear main cap? The pin needs to be removed to use the neoprene seal.
Here is my old post on rear main seals.
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19247
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & TFI Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half @ assembly

Post #3 by chad » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:09 pm

what R ur procedures on assembly?

I think the above post may B one of our better threads on the e x a c t sequence of operations to follow
on best practices on gasket install on i6. It is a lill different than others!

W E L C O M E !!! AND stick around till it comes out right (at the least).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #4 by Simonsalz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:21 pm

wsa111 wrote:Welcome aboard Simon, did you remove the pin in the seal area on the tear main cap? The pin needs to be removed to use the neoprene seal.
Here is my old post on rear main seals.
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19247


The first two times I didn’t but then I did. I’m on my 4th seal and it seems to only be tearing the bottom. Also I paid a mechanic to do it to make sure it was all proper with no luck.

I’ll look into it thanks! I honestly couldn’t find much on what I was looking for specifically, thanks!

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Re: rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half @ assembly

Post #5 by Simonsalz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:25 pm

chad wrote:what R ur procedures on assembly?

I think the above post may B one of our better threads on the e x a c t sequence of operations to follow
on best practices on gasket install on i6. It is a lill different than others!

W E L C O M E !!! AND stick around till it comes out right (at the least).


Honesly I follow the instructions precisely and I’ve done with and without permeatex on the ends and a lot to a little on the caps
I’ve had a mechanic double check the lip to make sure all was right and he approved. Then I paid another one to do all of it, long story short I lost 400$. I’ll try I though!
What’s a good brand rope seal? I ordered a national because I couldn’t find much on what to get

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #6 by chad » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:39 pm

may B U need to take several steps backward 1st. Not certian - pic would sure help...
ID the exact motor U have thru casting numbers on block,
ID the match w/it for the gasket U have been ordering.

It seems U may B following the tech article here/on the tech archive, w/our specific thread or where ever U R lookin 4 guidance. That's Y I suggest a step backwards. Does 'echo" go into this step, some other on-line quality guide?
Last edited by chad on Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #7 by Simonsalz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:19 pm

wsa111 wrote:Welcome aboard Simon, did you remove the pin in the seal area on the tear main cap? The pin needs to be removed to use the neoprene seal.
Here is my old post on rear main seals.
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19247


I was looking through the forum and there was great advice I’ll follow, but I notice the issue wasn’t the rear main tearing, rather it leaking (if I didn’t describe it, it’s literally tearing the seals to nothing and I have to replace those, I once pulled one 3k miles after installing and it had a chunk missing)
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #8 by Simonsalz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:23 pm

chad wrote:may B U need to take several steps backward 1st. Not certian - pic would sure help...
ID the exact motor U have,
ID the match w/it for the gasket U have been ordering.

It seems U may B following the tech article here/on the tech archive, w/our specific thread or where ever U R lookin 4 guidance. That's Y I suggest a step backwards. Does 'echo" go into this step, some other on-line quality guide?


I have the 1965 200 in-line 6 and the seal is a felpro bs30135
Guide you mean as what I’m following? I’ve followed everything I have been told by mechanics (multiple) and from inline 6 groups!

Also I posted a picture! Sorry I didn’t ealier but you see what I mean by a chunk missing?

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"a pic's worth a thous..."

Post #9 by chad » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:39 pm

I mean a pic "as installed". We might C that a prt is sticking out'n catching it.
A light underneath, camera pointing up, bottom up view of motor, etc...?
(hoping that is a lill clearer...) Unfortunatly I often write (not speak) in "short hand".
(a lill dis-graphia/learning disability w/keyboards writing & so forth).
We/I need 2 B in ur shop 2C whassss up.

Some folks say they have a '62 144 which turns out 2B a '64 170 etc...
(may B less important here, but still..ID motor by casting #s1st).
Last edited by chad on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:55 pm

:hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #11 by B RON CO » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:54 pm

Hi, we used to use a piece of like 2" pipe and use it like a rolling pin to install the rope seals.
You will need to install a pin in the cap like Bubba said. Maybe there is a roll pin that would fit.
I think we used to soak the seal in oil, and let the ends sit just above the block and cap surface.
Find old factory instructions I you decide to go back to a rope seal.
So here are some questions.
Did you lube the seal with motor oil before installing the cap?
How does the crankshaft journal look in the seal area?
I wonder if the crank is smooth, and if it was cut undersize.
Is the crankshaft endplay within specs?
As mentioned, guys have posted about the seal spinning in the groove.
I'm sure you know that no sealer is used on the seal.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #12 by wsa111 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:35 pm

Has the block been lined bored??
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & TFI Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #13 by 63falconATX » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:07 am

Short of tearing the entire block down and checking for bore alignment, looking at that photo, the mating surface of your crank needs close scrutiny.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #14 by Econoline » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:50 pm

After 3 or 4 times I would assume you are putting the seal in the right way around. Lip facing in, towards the front of the engine. Have you inspected the crank bearings while you've had it apart?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: "a pic's worth a thous..."

Post #15 by Simonsalz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:45 pm

chad wrote:I mean a pic "as installed". We might C that a prt is sticking out'n catching it.
A light underneath, camera pointing up, bottom up view of motor, etc...?
(hoping that is a lill clearer...) Unfortunatly I often write (not speak) in "short hand".
(a lill dis-graphia/learning disability w/keyboards writing & so forth).
We/I need 2 B in ur shop 2C whassss up.

Some folks say they have a '62 144 which turns out 2B a '64 170 etc...
(may B less important here, but still..ID motor by casting #s1st).


Oh I see! I’ll get some pictures tomorrow if I can! The motor is also a cd5e to clarify! Oh I see
I’ll be as detailed as possible now! And I’ll get all the numbers and pictures

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #16 by Simonsalz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:52 pm

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited



Really!? I didn’t know this was becoming a common issue! But
But ford made these seals? I’m assuming they don’t make them anymore? (I’m a bit confuresed sorry! It’s a bit late for me) but with the rope seal should I just pay someone to install it (because I don’t know much on /how/ to install them. (I’ve seen videos but still the idea)

But also in theory I called felpro and one of the guys said he called another guy to do some math and he said the housing DIA. Should be 3.945 and the crank should measure as 3.375 so that’s why I have it pulled but I’m honestly not sure how accurate that really is. Along with that the top seal always seems find (and having no specific top and bottom parts where the seal goes) could I measure the top and have the bottom measured to see how true it is? My freinds and I have continplated this theory

But even if all wasn’t true and needed to be fixed should I get it machined to the “proper” spec? I’m just so lost on what to do honestly

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #17 by Simonsalz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:56 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi, we used to use a piece of like 2" pipe and use it like a rolling pin to install the rope seals.
You will need to install a pin in the cap like Bubba said. Maybe there is a roll pin that would fit.
I think we used to soak the seal in oil, and let the ends sit just above the block and cap surface.
Find old factory instructions I you decide to go back to a rope seal.
So here are some questions.
Did you lube the seal with motor oil before installing the cap?
How does the crankshaft journal look in the seal area?
I wonder if the crank is smooth, and if it was cut undersize.
Is the crankshaft endplay within specs?
As mentioned, guys have posted about the seal spinning in the groove.
I'm sure you know that no sealer is used on the seal.
Good luck



I’ll check the book and see what I can do!

Yes I always made sure it was lubercated so no dry start
It looked good visually and a machinest known to be good with cranks said everything was good and within spec so I’ll take his word on that (everything else on the engine I had him do was all good and proper)
He (machinist) said all was good he polished and checked it just to make sure this time around
He said they were good! But I’m getting everything double checked
Have tried with and without and all combinations but no luck still

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #18 by Simonsalz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:57 pm

wsa111 wrote:Has the block been lined bored??


I’m honeslyy not sure but the local machinest said he checked the line bore and everything was good and straight but he didn’t tell me if it was line bored

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #19 by Simonsalz » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 am

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited


Would this be it?
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #20 by bubba22349 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:34 am

Simonsalz wrote:
bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited


Would this be it?


Yes that's looks like a Genuine ("NOS") Ford made seal. It would be interesting to measure and compare the Ford seal against the Newer FelPro seal to see how or if they are making them different. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #21 by chad » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:17 pm

or to see relation to a 200. I assume the same but not labeled for that motor or yr.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #22 by B RON CO » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:31 pm

Hi, that seal I think is a 2 piece rubber seal, not the rope seal. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #23 by wsa111 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:25 pm

At this point i believe you could try a rope seal.
Otherwise i am taking a guess that whoever line bored the block removed too much from the rear main cap & it is smashing the seal into the crankshaft.
Last shot is replace the block & install another crankshaft.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & TFI Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #24 by Simonsalz » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
Simonsalz wrote:
bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited


Would this be it?


Yes that's looks like a Genuine ("NOS") Ford made seal. It would be interesting to measure and compare the Ford seal against the Newer FelPro seal to see how or if they are making them different. :nod:


I’m tempted to order it to check

But also would I be able to measure the felpro seal and compare it to another gasket (full circle neoprene for instance) to see if the crush is different? I may sound like an idiot but it’s evident something is making the seal push too tight on the crank and I just realized the front crank seal has never leaked.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #25 by Simonsalz » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:43 pm

wsa111 wrote:At this point i believe you could try a rope seal.
Otherwise i am taking a guess that whoever line bored the block removed too much from the rear main cap & it is smashing the seal into the crankshaft.
Last shot is replace the block & install another crankshaft.


I got a rope seal (national) but I was told the new rope seals aren’t as good because they don’t contain the abspesbos (if that is spelt right) should I still try the seal? Also someone from the Facebook group recommended I try to use a 235 Chevy rope seal from “best seals (or gasket)” but never explained to me why besides the dimensions being correct) am I missing anything?

Simonsalz
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #26 by Simonsalz » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:45 pm

chad wrote:or to see relation to a 200. I assume the same but not labeled for that motor or yr.


Yeah! That’s why I didn’t know because I don’t know how these blocks cross from different bores. All I know are the heads are interchangeable

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #27 by bubba22349 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:13 pm

Simonsalz wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:
Simonsalz wrote:
Would this be it?


Yes that's looks like a Genuine ("NOS") Ford made seal. It would be interesting to measure and compare the Ford seal against the Newer FelPro seal to see how or if they are making them different. :nod:


I’m tempted to order it to check

But also would I be able to measure the felpro seal and compare it to another gasket (full circle neoprene for instance) to see if the crush is different? I may sound like an idiot but it’s evident something is making the seal push too tight on the crank and I just realized the front crank seal has never leaked.


Yes for sure they can be measured. If I had the two seals I would start by setting them on top of each other to examine the difference or making a line around them on paper and use that to see differences. Then you can use a Dial Caliper or a Micrometer to measure the seal thickness and height, all of these would be fairly easy to do except for the seal lips height, this is because if you put too much presure on it its going to start moving. Yes you are right the front seals have been made correctly over the years, and usally outlast the engine. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #28 by Simonsalz » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:02 am

bubba22349 wrote:
Simonsalz wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:
Yes that's looks like a Genuine ("NOS") Ford made seal. It would be interesting to measure and compare the Ford seal against the Newer FelPro seal to see how or if they are making them different. :nod:


I’m tempted to order it to check

But also would I be able to measure the felpro seal and compare it to another gasket (full circle neoprene for instance) to see if the crush is different? I may sound like an idiot but it’s evident something is making the seal push too tight on the crank and I just realized the front crank seal has never leaked.


Yes for sure they can be measured. If I had the two seals I would start by setting them on top of each other to examine the difference or making a line around them on paper and use that to see differences. Then you can use a Dial Caliper or a Micrometer to measure the seal thickness and height, all of these would be fairly easy to do except for the seal lips height, this is because if you put too much presure on it its going to start moving. Yes you are right the front seals have been made correctly over the years, and usally outlast the engine. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


Sorry i haven’t replied in a while
I ended up finding another block and I pulled the cap to get it measured to see if there is a difference (if there isn’t I’ll get the NOS seal and see if I can find a difference! But also I may just have the new national rope seal installed to see how that would last

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rear main seal tears on assembly

Post #29 by chad » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:55 pm

as U no, doin the same thing gets the same results - X 2 do something different, anything
(take notes, only change 1 thing).

will C what we can do frm here, good luck!
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #30 by Simonsalz » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:02 am

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited



Hey! sorry its been a while since i have replied, but i found a NOS rear main seal and installed it, but the leak still persists. but on the bright side, i was told it needs to "swell (because i didnt soak it over night, but i did lubricate the seal)" and that should help with the leak also. i remember when i was cutting the seal to fit it would clear the oil where the crank was mated and id assume when the engine heats the clearance gets even tighter. honestly ill be fine with it, as long as i can make it 3k miles before having to add or buy new oil. but it seems to be dripping rather fast still, but that could be my paranoia. I made sure to follow all proper steps and ive asked many with success in installing rope seals and did as instructed.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #31 by bill pierce » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:07 am

Did you check crankshaft end play?

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #32 by drag-200stang » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:11 am

What do you mean trim the seal to fit ?
I do not remember that needing to be done, that maybe your problem...No crush to make tight.
Let us see what other members say.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: rear main seal tears on assembly

Post #33 by Simonsalz » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:12 am

chad wrote:as U no, doin the same thing gets the same results - X 2 do something different, anything
(take notes, only change 1 thing).

will C what we can do frm here, good luck!


Hey! hows it been? sorry i haven't responded as ive been busy but im back!
I ended up using a NOS felpro rope rear main seal but it is still leaking, but ive read, and been told, that it has to "swell" so im hoping that it will fix itself soon. also to mention i noticed there was crosshatching on my rear main mating surface (on the crank) but they're not deep by any means. they seem like they were put there and could that be what everyone is talking about when the seal has to "seat"? also to mention ive taken the block and crank to two machine shops and they both said the specs were spot on and the line bore is now good. i really hope this fixed the leak though. also i may buy the national two piece nitrite seal and see where i end up if this rope seal is no good in the future.

the felpro rear main neoprene seal ive been using also shows signs of where like the crank is compressing to much (as you can see its wore down and the letters (stamped on) are gone on the top part near the lip (i can get a picture if need be). but if my block and crank are within spec could that be felpros end? since many have seem to have good luck (minus a few) with the seals?

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #34 by Simonsalz » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:13 am

drag-200stang wrote:What do you mean trim the seal to fit ?
I do not remember that needing to be done, that maybe your problem...No crush to make tight.
Let us see what other members say.



I used a two peice rope seal, sorry if i didn clarify
everyone told me, and the package said to trip flush with cap mating surface.

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #35 by Simonsalz » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:18 am

wsa111 wrote:At this point i believe you could try a rope seal.
Otherwise i am taking a guess that whoever line bored the block removed too much from the rear main cap & it is smashing the seal into the crankshaft.
Last shot is replace the block & install another crankshaft.



Both machinists i went to didn't think it was line bored ( going off specs) and the condition of the engine when i first brought it in, i mean the seal housing measured around 4 inches (i dont remember specifically) and the national two peice seal even states the hosing bore is 4 inches (if im correct).

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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #36 by drag-200stang » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:35 am

Ok that makes sense.
I thought that you were going to try a nos neoprene seal that may be made to the right spec. versus today's offshore stuff.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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chad
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Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #37 by chad » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:41 am

U put the lill pin back in for the rope seal?
"... I made sure to follow all proper steps ..."
like 2 hear more. Similar with the neoprene U may B following best practices (use no other) but I
can't tell.
Also
some here R saying machined/unmachined prts may B interfering...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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bubba22349
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Re: Rear main seal keeps tearing on bottom half

Post #38 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Simonsalz wrote:
bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I have been a fan and proponent of using the neoprene type rear main seals (because they had less friction "for a little extra free power") since back in the late 1960's, plus I have also mostly used and recommended the FelPro brand. Recently this same issue has come up with severial other people when using the FelPro rear main seals in the early 144, 170, & 200 blocks (i.e. those that originally used a rope seal). Because of this continuing problem I believe that these latest seals are not being made to the orginal Ford Factory specs of the rear main seals like we're used or offered in the past, and or they may even be substituting a seal from another seal application. Anyway this is my theory and because this has now happened with quite a few instances there is definitely a recurring problem over the last approximately 2 or 3 years, of these rear main seal failures. But only by acquiring then doing a side by side comparison and accurate measuring of a new original Ford seal which I think is (C9AZ-6701-B) compared to one of these current FelPro seals will prove this theory.

At this time I don't know if there is another manufacture that makes the correct spec neoprene seal to fit these 200 blocks, so it is my opinion and recommendation not to waste your time installing one or the money to buy one of these seals that FelPro is currently offering. So It also my opion It's just best to use the old tried and true rope type rear main seal. Or unless you would be lucky enough to even find a "NOS" Genuine Ford neoprene rear main seal. To reinstall the rope seal you can make a replacement rear main seal locking pin for the main cap from the end of a small finish nail of the correct diameter and cut it off to fit into the main cap. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited



Hey! sorry its been a while since i have replied, but i found a NOS rear main seal and installed it, but the leak still persists. but on the bright side, i was told it needs to "swell (because i didnt soak it over night, but i did lubricate the seal)" and that should help with the leak also. i remember when i was cutting the seal to fit it would clear the oil where the crank was mated and id assume when the engine heats the clearance gets even tighter. honestly ill be fine with it, as long as i can make it 3k miles before having to add or buy new oil. but it seems to be dripping rather fast I in still, but that could be my paranoia. I made sure to follow all proper steps and ive asked many with success in installing rope seals and did as instructed.


Hi Simon welcome back! :bang: Sorry but the rope seal isn't going to swell up with oil over some amount of time and seal itself, nor will the engine heating up help it to seal any better. As the engine warms up its going to expand so this going to depend on the rate of expansion of the parts I the cast iron block, the cast steel crankshaft, vs the rope seal material ect. I am not an engineer but there's a good possibility that it will even leak more when at operating temps.

:hmmm: I guess to be able to determine the cause I would need to see some pictures of the install or know what your install procedure was, but I will take a stab at it. There was a tool made to install the rope seals to hammer it into the seal groove to fully seat it. I never had this tool so would use the biggest inpact socket that would fit pushing the seal into place in the groove first and then giving it a couple of light raps with a hammer to fully seat (bottoming the seal into the seal groove) after that I trim the seal ends with a fresh (Sharp) single edge razar blade the ends should be just slightly (proud) above the blocks main caps parting line so that it gives a little bit of a crush fit, you could use a .002 feeler gauge layed beside the seal as a guide for cutting nthe seal. Next Lube the seal surface with pleanty of oil, also clean & lube the cranks seal surface good too, the angle groves on the crank are there to chanel some oil onto the seals surface so the seal will last longer. A new rope seal shouldn't be leaking if installed correctly. Another way to know if the seal is installed correctly is the engine when turned off stops turning quickly due to the amount of friction of the rope seal, until over time and heat its position takes a set. You also need the retaining pin installed in the main cap to keep the seal from spinning in the groove. I have made many of these from about a 4 P finish nail with the pointed end going into seal and then cut off to fit. Sorry for your troubles, Good luck. :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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