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DSII headbanger

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SweetSix
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DSII headbanger

Post #1 by SweetSix » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:03 pm

I have a '65 Ranchero with the 200, C4 auto. Having a very difficult time getting it to run after installing a DSII kit and Autolite 1101 carb. I've researched for hours and read over and over all I could find including all the Tech Archives regarding ignition system and the excellent "Performance Handbook" by the Schjeldahl's. I'm not stupid, but I'm not great with electrical stuff. I'm ready to slit my wrists. Please help with kindness and patience. I know this topic has been addressed many times before.
When I bought the DSII kit, Matt didn't have the dizzy in stock (there's more to this but needless to recount. Matt was great). To save time I bought a reman Cardone #302690 for a '78 Fairmont 3.3L from Autozone and got the Dyna Mod, coil, resistor, and Live Wires from Vintage Inlines. Installed all with great care.
When I turn the key the motor labors like the battery is dead- barely turns over. Tested and fully charged the battery- it's fine. Finally tested the voltage to the + side of coil and it's only getting 6 volts with key in both "run" and "start" positions. The "I" terminal on solenoid gets full 12.6 in both key positions.
I believe the problem is the way I've wired the gold-colored resistor which came with the module kit (please don't laugh I was following instructions)- with the resistor wired in between the 12v ignition and the + terminal on the coil. This seems obvious to me now because I have tested the voltage both before (12v) and after (6v) the resistor. However, in my defense and as per the diagram and instructions I received from Performance Distributors with the kit entitled, "PERFORMANCE DISTRIBUTORS STREET/STRIP DURASPARK WIRING DIAGRAM", the 12v wire coming from the ignition switch leads directly to the resistor input with the output side leading to the + terminal on coil. But I don't have the "Performance Distributors" dizzy, so maybe that's why it is illustrated as such... but I still don't get that diagram (attached).
In my research I poured over several other wiring diagrams including this site's excellent archive, "Duraspark II Distributor", but that diagram does not include a resistor, and from what I can see, it has a 12v wire going directly from ignition switch to coil, and states in the text, "Run this new wire, yellow in my diagram, through the firewall and to the coil, if needed install the resistor that came with the Dyna Module kit." Where??!! This diagram is from the author's '67 Mustang which he earlier states has the MSD6A which may account for no resistor pictured.
All other diagrams, descriptions I have found have not clearly addressed this particular scenario and have issued dire warnings of burning up the solenoid and possibly the entire car.
So it seems that I need to install this resistor, but it seems that I've got it in the wrong place, squeezing the voltage in between the ignition and the coil. And I can't find a wiring diagram or detailed description of where to wire the resistor in conjunction with the parts I am using. A diagram would be greatly appreciated.
I admit that if I better understood electricity I could figure this out, but I don't and can't at this time.
Perhaps there are multiple problems, but I have managed to get it running with starting fluid, badly out of time, for 3-4 minutes, as long as I had my foot on the accelerator, (I was working solo and tried to dash from the driver's seat to the engine in order to rotate the distributor cap and of course it died before I could get there) so I'm somewhat confident that the carb is functioning reasonably well and that I'm at TDS. Sorry for the long post, I tried to be detailed.

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lavron
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #2 by lavron » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:03 pm

I know you probably tried all of this but will ask anyway; You have the distributor in the right way and not 180 degrees out? You have the plug wires correctly installed for the firing order (1-5-3-6-2-4)? Not sure on your other issues but you might double check those 2, if you can get #1 to TDC on the compression stroke make sure the rotor is pointing to the #1 wire on the distributor.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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SweetSix
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #3 by SweetSix » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:04 am

Thanks Mike. Yeah checked each of those over and over. But the primary issue at the moment is that it barely turns over, maybe just once or twice which I'm presuming is due to + side of coil only getting 6v... does anyone know if this is a correct presumption??

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wsa111
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #4 by wsa111 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:04 pm

If you purchased a Cardone Reman. you are in desperate need to get this DS11 custom recurved for your engine combination. Contact me Bill billythedistributorman@live.com or PM me.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Econoline
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #5 by Econoline » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:19 am

Have you tried retarding the distributor some? If it's clocked so that it is putting in alot of advance it can affect the ability for the engine to turn over and start. Otherwise, the ignition wiring shouldn't affect the starter much.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #6 by mustang6 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:20 am

Hey SweetSix, the distributor/coil getting 6V really shouldn't have anything to do with it not turning over very quickly, unless as Mike said it is seriously out of time and the power stroke is working against the starter. I'd say disconnect power to the ignition and crank the starter, if it doesn't change you've got a problem with the starter or power to it. If the cranking speeds up, then start over with your distributor timing.

If your coil says a resistor is required, you should be using one (or the resistor wire that is integral to the OEM wiring, NOT BOTH). But your wiring should be such that the module is always getting 12V, and your coil is getting 12V when cranking (and more like 9V when running?). Maybe the diagram in this link will help. Often time guys get tricked by the resistor wire in the OEM wiring.

https://www.painlessperformance.com/Manuals/30812.pdf
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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bubba22349
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:34 am

Have you cleaned all your wiring conections and made sure that you have good d grounds from the - post of the battery to the engine block, from the block to the chassis, and an extra one from the engine to the firewall is good too? Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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chad
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DSII headbanger

Post #8 by chad » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:58 am

I have even less knowledge than U Six, so hesitated to 'get in the way' here.
But do see some others @ this point get blocked. The "pink wire" may B the
trouble spot? I think it is a powered wire (from the ign switch?) that also
functions as a resistor? Or something like that - hope this is not a rabbit hole for U
but something to understand in this effort...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

SweetSix
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #9 by SweetSix » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:52 pm

Thanks all. I will check again on all suggestions, but battery terminals are clean, I've cut the infamous "pink" wire near ignition, and removed brown wire from solenoid, firing order is correct. I'll check TDC again, coil, and grounds. I didn't know that being out of time could impact engine not turning or hardly turning. I'll follow all suggestions and reply.

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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #10 by JackFish » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:04 pm

SweetSix wrote:I'll check TDC again,


Make sure it's on the compression stroke, eh. :thumbup:
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drag-200stang
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #11 by drag-200stang » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 am

SweetSix wrote:Thanks all. I will check again on all suggestions, but battery terminals are clean, I've cut the infamous "pink" wire near ignition, and removed brown wire from solenoid, firing order is correct. I'll check TDC again, coil, and grounds. I didn't know that being out of time could impact engine not turning or hardly turning. I'll follow all suggestions and reply.

Any progress?
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

SweetSix
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #12 by SweetSix » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:43 pm

Update:
-"pink" resistor wire is cut and taped
-"brown" wire removed, taped from solenoid "I" terminal
-firing order re-checked
-TDC on compression stroke re-checked
-coil is the "Inferno" from Performance Distributors
-resistor wired between 12v ignition and coil "+" terminal
Next is to ensure quality of all the grounds, and the starter itself.
Hoping to post later tonight...

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chad
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start, run problems / new components

Post #13 by chad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:02 pm

"...TDC on compression stroke re-checked..."
on which cyl & w/rotor pointed where?

Hang in , we're gettin closer !
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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wsa111
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #14 by wsa111 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:13 pm

SweetSix wrote:Update:
"brown" wire removed, taped from solenoid "I" terminal
-firing order re-checked
-TDC on compression stroke re-checked
-coil is the "Inferno" from Performance Distributors
-resistor wired between 12v ignition and coil "+" terminal
Next is to ensure quality of all the grounds, and the starter itself.
Hoping to post later tonight...

Dave, you want to reconnect the brown wire from the solenoid I terminal.
That supplies to the wire going to the ignition box with 12V during cranking.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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SweetSix
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #15 by SweetSix » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:54 am

GOT ER STARTED!!! Runs like crap, but she starts.
It was the freakin starter- bought it at Autozone 2 1/2 years ago. "Lifetime" guarantee, so they just gave me another one (I wonder how long this one will last). I made them test it before I left the store.
So I started out checking all grounds as per Bubba. They all looked ok, but I disconnected and cleaned each: the battery "-" terminal to block, block to alternator, and firewall to starter. Couldn't find a block to chassis ground so I installed one with 8 gauge wire (is that the right size wire for a ground?) Then I just installed new starter and she turned over rapidly and started immediately. What a relief!!!
But she was running very rough and smelling very rich. I'd left the dizzy lock down loose (with the rotor pointed at #1 terminal on cap at TDC). When I turned the dizzy clockwise the engine faltered more, when I turned it counter-clockwise it got better, but never improved beyond running rough and rich, almost like she wasn't firing on all cylinders (I'll inspect plugs next chance I get, maybe tomorrow) So still more issues lie ahead but I'm delighted to get her running.
Observations/lessons learned/questions:
-Ironic that the two items I replaced, carb and dizzy, were not the source of the primary problem in getting her re-started (it was the starter).
-She was running fine until I went to fix her.
-I got lucky buying my 1101 off eBay and it appears to work, sort of, so far.
-Upgrading from Autolite 1100 to 1101 carb requires also changing distributors thereby violating the "fix only one thing at a time" rule. But I guess I could have installed the 1101 with the compatible "points" dizzy first, make sure the carb is functioning properly with points, and then install electronic ignition... or is there a better procedure??
-It seems each of the different electronic ignition systems out there have different wiring schematics and engineering (cut the pink wire, don't cut pink wire, remove brown wire, don't remove, add white wire, don't add, etc.)
-The new starter I got has a sticker which states, "...best to replace solenoid at same time as starter" Is this true or can I save $20?
-There's more but must sleep now...
Oh yeah- Thanks all for your support!

drag-200stang
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Re: DSII headbanger

Post #16 by drag-200stang » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:13 am

I am all for making improvements, but if a part is working as intended, I do not chance getting one that will not...I am cheap that way.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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