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Valve train clatter

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charliecurrie
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Valve train clatter

Post #1 by charliecurrie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:08 am

Just installed 264/274 112 cam from Vintage Inlines and I can't get the valve/rocker adjustment correct - quiet.

Stock '66 200.
Rebuilt '66 head
Adjustable rocker assembly
302 valve springs
New Sealed Power hydraulic lifters
Stock pushrods - ~8"


If I adjust the valves according to the CI tech recommendation the valves hang open.

If I back the adjustment off until I get maximum vacuum and smooth idle, it clacks and taps annoyingly loud.

Suggestions?

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #2 by wsa111 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:27 pm

67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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charliecurrie
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #3 by charliecurrie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:42 pm

I can't get close to zero lash without the valves hanging open. It creates a huge vacuum leak and uneven / surging idle.

If they're not clacking / ticking they're not closing.

When everything is lose and noisy, I have 20+ in of vacuum and a rock steady needle on the gauge and a rock steady idle at 500 rpm in neutral.

My rockers are the shaft mounted non-roller. This valve train worked fine with the stock 53 year old cam and lifters. Well fine for its age and worn lobe the fuel pump lever rides on and a couple of lazy lifters.

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Econoline
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #4 by Econoline » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:59 pm

Have you tried to isolate the problem to a single valve/lifter? Do all the lifters depress?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #5 by charliecurrie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:20 pm

It's every cylinder, every valve...so, I suppose, every lifter.

Is it possible none of the lifters are depressing? Although, my buddy who helped with the install, depressed one of them for no reason before I put it in.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #6 by Econoline » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:33 pm

What are you using for springs? What is the closed pressure?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #7 by charliecurrie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:21 pm

302 - 71 lbs

Started with stock 200 springs. The 302 springs didn't change anything.

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wsa111
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #8 by wsa111 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:13 pm

How is your oil pressure???
Your valve springs are not involved with this condition, but you need close to 100# seat pressure.
Sometimes it takes several minutes to have the hydraulic lifters to respond to a half turn of adjustment from zero adjustment.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #9 by charliecurrie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:47 pm

Oil pressure is good - no gauge - but the light doesn't come on. And, there's plenty of oil flow to the valve train - easy to see with the valve cover off.

Oh, we've run it longer than several minutes and the valves never close completely. But, as soon as you start backing off the adjusters you can see - vacuum gauge and tac - and hear and feel the improvement. We do the adjustment with the engine running.

All I changed was the cam, lifters, valve springs and timing set. Didn't have this problem before the change.

It runs down the road just fine. A noticeable improvement. Idles smooth at 500 rpm in gear.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:23 am

Take each cylinder one at a time starting with #1
Turn the crank clockwise until the EXHAUST valve just begins to open and stop. Then adjust the INTAKE valve with 1/2 turn past zero lash.

Now turn the crank clockwise again till the INTAKE valve opens and begins to close. Just as the intake valve closes stop and adjust the EXHAUST valve with 1/2 turn past zero lash.

Continue the process on remaining cylinders 2,3,4,5 and 6

Zero lash is when you no longer have rocker movement by hand and you can feel the pushrod starting to press down on the lifter plunger.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #11 by wsa111 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:02 am

This is a wild guess, but is it possible all the lifter plungers are bottomed out & the lifter plunger has not pumped up to the snap ring.
Take the rocker arm assy off the head.
Remove the distributor & with a drill spin the oil pump shaft to get line pressure. That will get the plungers to the top of travel.
Reinstall rockers assy with the adjusters backed off & adjust each valve. Good luck.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #12 by charliecurrie » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:14 am

Like I've said above, this has been done - multiple times using this and other procedures which produce the same final setting. And, the adjustment at zero lash, or zero lash plus, hangs the valves open - all of them.

This is not the first time I've adjusted the valves on this car - two engines and two different head and valve train configurations - never have had a problem...until now.

charliecurrie
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #13 by charliecurrie » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:30 am

wsa111 wrote:This is a wild guess, but is it possible all the lifter plungers are bottomed out & the lifter plunger has not pumped up to the snap ring.
Take the rocker arm assy off the head.
Remove the distributor & with a drill spin the oil pump shaft to get line pressure. That will get the plungers to the top of travel.
Reinstall rockers assy with the adjusters backed off & adjust each valve. Good luck.


Thanks - appreciate your continued input.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #14 by drag-200stang » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:03 am

Did you degree the cam ?
Is the cam spacer on the cam behind the pin with the inside bevel toward the journal, not to be confused with the cam retainer ?
Is it possible that the valves are closing and the the cam duration is making lower vacuum and rougher idle than you expected ?
Loose lash will get better vacuum and better idle because it cuts down on duration, cannot run it that way .
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

charliecurrie
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #15 by charliecurrie » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:11 pm

drag-200stang wrote:Did you degree the cam ?
Is the cam spacer on the cam behind the pin with the inside bevel toward the journal, not to be confused with the cam retainer ?
Is it possible that the valves are closing and the the cam duration is making lower vacuum and rougher idle than you expected ?
Loose lash will get better vacuum and better idle because it cuts down on duration, cannot run it that way .


All good questions. Thanks.

At this point, I have no other option than to pull it apart, inspect everything and put it back together.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #16 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 am

Update:

Replaced adjustable rocker assembly with non-adjustable rockers and push rods. Obviously, it quieted down, but ran like crap. Neutral idle was ok but in gear it was making some odd noises and idled ruff. Vacuum was lower also.

Had to put the adjustable rockers back on and put up with the clatter.

I'm thinking it has something to do with the lifters. Thinking I'll replace them and put in the stock cam I have on the shelf.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:47 am

It looks like the lifters are not bleeding down after adjustment.
They are acting like solid lifters.

Take one out and see if you can push the plunger down away form the retaining clip.
If so measure how much travel you have.
Most anti pump lifters only have about .100" worth of travel.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #18 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:09 am

pmuller9 wrote:It looks like the lifters are not bleeding down after adjustment.
They are acting like solid lifters.

Take one out and see if you can push the plunger down away form the retaining clip.
If so measure how much travel you have.
Most anti pump lifters only have about .100" worth of travel.


That's been my suspicion.

What would cause them to act like that?

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am

I don't know why.
I'm hoping you find the reason when you take one out for inspection.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #20 by Econoline » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 am

Can you depress the lifters? Is it possible that when installed the lifters were fully pumped to the top and can't bleed down now?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #21 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:56 pm

Econoline wrote:Can you depress the lifters? Is it possible that when installed the lifters were fully pumped to the top and can't bleed down now?


During the first couple of times I tried to adjust the rockers, as I would tighten them to zero lash and stop, a couple of the lifters would sink enough for the rod to become loose enough to twist. But, only a couple, not all.

I tried depressing them yesterday when the rocker assembly was off and they didn't seem to move at all.

I'll have to pull the head and remove them to really be certain.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #22 by bubba22349 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:47 pm

It’s not as easy and a bit messy but before you pull it apart why not try adjusting them with the engine running. Loosen til they tick snug til they stop then go 1/4 turn more. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #23 by frozenrabbit » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 pm

Are you measuring your lash adjustment or doing zero lash and half a turn?

I do a collapsed lifter lash. Holding the lifter compressed and measuring between the rocker and valve stem.

Ford manual for '63 shows 0.067"-0.200" lash for hydraulic lifers. Of course for OEM lifters. I shoot for the middle.

Maybe an issue with those Sealed Power lifters?

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:35 pm

charliecurrie wrote:During the first couple of times I tried to adjust the rockers, as I would tighten them to zero lash and stop, a couple of the lifters would sink enough for the rod to become loose enough to twist.

This may be the problem.
That is not zero lash!
Zero lash is when the pushrod barely begins to get tight and the lifter plunger is NOT depressed.

Then you go another 1/2 turn from there and the lifter plunger depresses about .050"

Did I read you correctly?

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #25 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:41 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
charliecurrie wrote:During the first couple of times I tried to adjust the rockers, as I would tighten them to zero lash and stop, a couple of the lifters would sink enough for the rod to become loose enough to twist.

This may be the problem.
That is not zero lash!
Zero lash is when the pushrod barely begins to get tight and the lifter plunger is NOT depressed.

Then you go another 1/2 turn from there and the lifter plunger depresses about .050"

Did I read you correctly?


I did it like you stated. The plunger appeared to depress after i came to zero lash.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #26 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:44 pm

frozenrabbit wrote:Are you measuring your lash adjustment or doing zero lash and half a turn?

I do a collapsed lifter lash. Holding the lifter compressed and measuring between the rocker and valve stem.

Ford manual for '63 shows 0.067"-0.200" lash for hydraulic lifers. Of course for OEM lifters. I shoot for the middle.

Maybe an issue with those Sealed Power lifters?


The initial adjustment was 0 + 1/2. Valves hung open.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #27 by charliecurrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:47 pm

bubba22349 wrote:It’s not as easy and a bit messy but before you pull it apart why not try adjusting them with the engine running. Loosen til they tick snug til they stop then go 1/4 turn more. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


Adjusting with the engine running was the only way to figure out when the valves were actually closed - steady idle and steady vacuum needle. However, ended up with a very loose and noisy valve train.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:57 pm

charliecurrie wrote:I did it like you stated. The plunger appeared to depress after i came to zero lash.

Then it looks like the lifter is collapsed.
There should be a spring under the plunger that keeps it up against the retaining clip.
The lifters have a problem.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #29 by charliecurrie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 am

pmuller9 wrote:
charliecurrie wrote:I did it like you stated. The plunger appeared to depress after i came to zero lash.

Then it looks like the lifter is collapsed.
There should be a spring under the plunger that keeps it up against the retaining clip.
The lifters have a problem.


Yeah, the lifters certainly seem to be the problem.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #30 by bubba22349 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:02 am

charliecurrie wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:It’s not as easy and a bit messy but before you pull it apart why not try adjusting them with the engine running. Loosen til they tick snug til they stop then go 1/4 turn more. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


Adjusting with the engine running was the only way to figure out when the valves were actually closed - steady idle and steady vacuum needle. However, ended up with a very loose and noisy valve train.

Update:

Replaced adjustable rocker assembly with non-adjustable rockers and push rods. Obviously, it quieted down, but ran like crap. Neutral idle was ok but in gear it was making some odd noises and idled ruff. Vacuum was lower also.

Had to put the adjustable rockers back on and put up with the clatter.

I'm thinking it has something to do with the lifters. Thinking I'll replace them and put in the stock cam I have on the shelf.


Ok great now what's the condition of the adjustable rocker assembly? Dose the shaft show any signs of wear under each of rocker arms position, and or for the rocker arm bushings? The Info stated from your above update leads me to believe that the adjustable set of rockers may have quite a bit of wear in them compared to the non adjustable set. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #31 by drag-200stang » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:27 am

charliecurrie wrote:
drag-200stang wrote:Did you degree the cam ?
Is the cam spacer on the cam behind the pin with the inside bevel toward the journal, not to be confused with the cam retainer ?
Is it possible that the valves are closing and the the cam duration is making lower vacuum and rougher idle than you expected ?
Loose lash will get better vacuum and better idle because it cuts down on duration, cannot run it that way .


All good questions. Thanks.

At this point, I have no other option than to pull it apart, inspect everything and put it back together.

Yes they are good questions and the first two must be done but the third is not important or you could be chasing your tail.
If you take out the lifters they should be put back in the same place that they where broke in at.
New cams should be lubed with brake in lube paste on the lifter face and cam lobes and ran at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes with no idling.
I have no experience with hyd. lifters so I cannot help there.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #32 by wsa111 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:24 pm

I would put an oil pressure gauge in to see your oil pressure.
If low there maybe a front lifter galley plug that popped out????
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #33 by drag-200stang » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:09 pm

wsa111 wrote:I would put an oil pressure gauge in to see your oil pressure.
If low there maybe a front lifter galley plug that popped out????

X2 :thumbup: Could be temporary and taped where it can be seen.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #34 by charliecurrie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:12 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
charliecurrie wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:It’s not as easy and a bit messy but before you pull it apart why not try adjusting them with the engine running. Loosen til they tick snug til they stop then go 1/4 turn more. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


Adjusting with the engine running was the only way to figure out when the valves were actually closed - steady idle and steady vacuum needle. However, ended up with a very loose and noisy valve train.

Update:

Replaced adjustable rocker assembly with non-adjustable rockers and push rods. Obviously, it quieted down, but ran like crap. Neutral idle was ok but in gear it was making some odd noises and idled ruff. Vacuum was lower also.

Had to put the adjustable rockers back on and put up with the clatter.

I'm thinking it has something to do with the lifters. Thinking I'll replace them and put in the stock cam I have on the shelf.


Ok great now what's the condition of the adjustable rocker assembly? Dose the shaft show any signs of wear under each of rocker arms position, and or for the rocker arm bushings? The Info stated from your above update leads me to believe that the adjustable set of rockers may have quite a bit of wear in them compared to the non adjustable set. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


The adjustable rockers were on this engine (and a previous one) before the new cam was installed and worked just fine.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #35 by charliecurrie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:20 pm

drag-200stang wrote:
charliecurrie wrote:
drag-200stang wrote:Did you degree the cam ?
Is the cam spacer on the cam behind the pin with the inside bevel toward the journal, not to be confused with the cam retainer ?
Is it possible that the valves are closing and the the cam duration is making lower vacuum and rougher idle than you expected ?
Loose lash will get better vacuum and better idle because it cuts down on duration, cannot run it that way .


All good questions. Thanks.

At this point, I have no other option than to pull it apart, inspect everything and put it back together.

Yes they are good questions and the first two must be done but the third is not important or you could be chasing your tail.
If you take out the lifters they should be put back in the same place that they where broke in at.
New cams should be lubed with brake in lube paste on the lifter face and cam lobes and ran at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes with no idling.
I have no experience with hyd. lifters so I cannot help there.


Answer to question one - no.
...two - yes.
...three - no.
The cam was broke in as you stated.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #36 by charliecurrie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:26 pm

wsa111 wrote:I would put an oil pressure gauge in to see your oil pressure.
If low there maybe a front lifter galley plug that popped out????


I've never had an oil pressure issue with this engine and the last time I put a gauge on it it was over 40 at idle - of course that doesn't mean it still is. However, there is so much oil passing over the valve train I have to cover the plug wires to keep them from getting soaked. Made the mistake of running the rpm to around 3k - it was a gusher.

Also, the idiot light hasn't come on and I know it works from past experience.

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #37 by Econoline » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 pm

It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Valve train clatter

Post #38 by charliecurrie » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 pm

Econoline wrote:I came across a good article related to this on Dragzine.com

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/pumping-up-is-hydraulic-lifter-pump-up-a-real-problem-today/


Thanks for that. Very interesting.

I ordered new lifters last night. We shall see...

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