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Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

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clintonvillian
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Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #1 by clintonvillian » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:05 pm

I have been pretty absent from here....sorry. I have focused all of my time into the body work, and stepped back from the drivetrain for awhile. Plus life threw a few other hurdles at me.

Here are some pics of the '56:

ImageImageImageImage

Now help me get back into this 300, as it sits now I have:

-87 4.9L
-The head completed: 2.02 Intake, 1.72 Exhaust, 1.72 Rockers, and a CNC Head Port.
-240 no hole rods
-Custom sheet metal intake and a Clifford Intake
-Dynomax Headers
-T-5 3.35 1st, 1.93 2nd, 1.29 3rd, 1.00 4th, .68 5th
-2.78:1 Rearend


I have the M112 setting there, still not sure if I want to use it. Mounting it depends on which way I go with my ignition. So it is time to crap or get off of the pot on my end.

I WANT 400 ft-lbs of torque and 300 HP. What is the most reliable way to get there building on what I have?

Can higher compression and a torque cam alone get me there? Or is the Supercharger a must?

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #2 by BigBlue94 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:16 pm

I'm running 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140 cam. 1.94 and 1.6 valves. Clifford intake and headers. 450cfm 4bbl and HEI ignition. It runs on 91 octane great. Havent dynoed it yet but I estimate 250 hp and 350 ft/lbs.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:43 pm

You can have 300 HP using a cam with a .050" duration in the 230s and a 10:1 compression ratio.
You will not get 400 ft lbs of torque without some boost.

Using the same cam, the M112 will get you there and more with 6 lbs of boost.
A blower drive ratio around 2:1 should get you there.
The engine compression ratio will need to be around 9:1
I'm assuming you would be using the highest octane pump gas available.

Are you going to use a carburetor or EFI if you use the M112?

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #4 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:30 pm

Nice metal work on the body. It looks like you're making a flip front end clip. Very ambitious. I like those old F-series trucks. I have a '46 half-tonner but V8 powered. Wish it were a six.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

clintonvillian
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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #5 by clintonvillian » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:56 pm

If life will allow it, I plan to travel the country in this truck. So reliability is a MUST. I also plan to drive it regularly.

I want to keep it on pump gas.

I plan to run some type of efi. But I have NO experience with it. I would LOVE to run FAST, FiTech, or Sniper setup. It keeps it looking old school and simple. None of those will work with TFI nor do they have a magnetic plug and play distributor for a 300 six. So I have to figure that out as I would like it to control the timing.

Holley HP and megasquirt are both options and I am setup for the crank trigger wheel. Not having tuning experience SCARES me with these. Plus by the time I buy injectors, fuel rail, and the various pieces to make it work I can buy the SNIPER Kit. AND IT WONT LOOK OLD SCHOOL.

The new SNIPER units handle power adders so if I can figure out the ignition and timing system, this feels like the way I want to go...

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #6 by clintonvillian » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:18 pm

Some additional food for thought.....

I was looking over some of my old notes from talking to Arnie at CTech, and he gave me these Dyno numbers from a recent build of his:

220 Crower Cam
9:1 compression
2.02 int, 1.6 exhaust
390 Holley

It was making 360 ft-lbs at 3000, and 300HP at 5000 rpms.

When they went to a 225 Crower the HP dropped to 260.

Does that sound reasonable?

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:27 pm

The 1956 F100 is a huge faveriote of mine! Going back to early 1956 when I got to go with my Dad to the locale Ford dealership to special order his new 56 F100 later on I learned to drive in that 56. Yours is looking really straight great job on the body work, it's going to be a real beauty.


I think since you have the M112 that would be an excellent combo for the power level you want to get or you could also do a Turbo for that level of power. But in my opinion there’s just something really great about the looks and instant power of a blower.

For the old school look plus bullet proof simple install that Clifford intake with an Autolite or Holley carb (Autolites for a little bit better MPG / Holley for more power), a DuraSpark II ignistion and drive it. Though it might not have quite as much power output as you would like, yet it will be more than enough power for that light weight 56 F100. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:17 pm

clintonvillian wrote:I plan to run some type of efi. But I have NO experience with it. I would LOVE to run FAST, FiTech, or Sniper setup. It keeps it looking old school and simple. None of those will work with TFI nor do they have a magnetic plug and play distributor for a 300 six. So I have to figure that out as I would like it to control the timing.
The new SNIPER units handle power adders so if I can figure out the ignition and timing system, this feels like the way I want to go...

Run the Holley Super Sniper with the supercharger along with an MSD ignition system and forget the TFI.
You can use the Duraspark distributor to supply the magnetic ignition trigger signal to the Sniper.
The vacuum advance plate can be moved and locked down to get the rotor phasing correct.

clintonvillian wrote:Some additional food for thought.....
I was looking over some of my old notes from talking to Arnie at CTech, and he gave me these Dyno numbers from a recent build of his:

220 Crower Cam
9:1 compression
2.02 int, 1.6 exhaust
390 Holley

It was making 360 ft-lbs at 3000, and 300HP at 5000 rpms.
When they went to a 225 Crower the HP dropped to 260.
Does that sound reasonable?

Yes
The drop in power is because the 390 Holley is too small.
I used a Quick Fuel HR 650 cfm carb for the last 300 six with Arnie's CNC ported head 2.02"/1.60" valves and a 232/232, 534" lift cam.

clintonvillian wrote:If life will allow it, I plan to travel the country in this truck. So reliability is a MUST. I also plan to drive it regularly.
I want to keep it on pump gas.

If you want to keep it simple and very reliable I would tell you to just do a carburetor (No supercharger) on the Clifford intake however Arnie set the head up with the larger exhaust valves and valve springs with heavy seat pressure to work with a supercharger.
That would be wasted on a N/A setup and you would be missing out on at least 100 ft lbs of torque.

Have you done anything to the head since you got it back from Arnie?

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #9 by clintonvillian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:31 pm

So, it sounds like for simplicity, the M112 with the SNIPER Kit is where I want to be. The SNIPER can also be tuned which would make it nicer down the road. But would get me up and running pretty quick.

I have not touched the head. I have to pull the hood to finish metal work on it. When I do I plan to stick the motor back in and position the supercharger and intercooler.

Is there a specific distributor I should be looking for?

Is there an off the shelf Cam suited for the supercharger?

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:17 pm

For that head you need a cam with at least a 232 .050" duration intake and usually we add extra exhaust duration to help evacuate the extra exhaust gas volume created by the supercharger.
Because Arnie gave you more exhaust port flow you would only need a few extra exhaust degrees.

There are no shelf cams for the 300 six from anyone.
All cams for the 300 are ground per order.
I would order a Jones cam using his H72334 lobe for the intake and the H7334 for the exhaust.
That gives you a 232* intake and 236* exhaust with .534" valve lift on both using a 1.6 ratio rocker.
Mike Jones quality is hard to beat.

Use a DS2 distributor to trigger the Sniper.
Since the Sniper will be controlling the ignition advance curve the mechanical advance gets locked.
Once the distributor is in placed and timed for the Sniper, you can lock the vacuum advance plate down so the rotor is phased with the cap at 30* BTDC.

Since you are running an intercooler, in what order would the Blower, intercooler and Sniper carb be in?

Have you checked the combustion chamber volume?
It may be between 74 and 75cc

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #11 by clintonvillian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:34 pm

It would be...

M112
Intercooler
Sniper

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:50 pm

Unlike a turbocharger the supercharger is a positive displacement device that pushes the same amount of air per revolution regardless of what is afterwards.
If you have a throttle plate afterwards, the blower will continue to push the same amount of air past the throttle at any plate angle and the boost pressure will skyrocket as the plate closes.
Is there something I'm missing about how you want to set this up?

Would you do yourself a favor and set the head with the combustion chambers up and fill each chamber with water or alcohol and see if any leaks past the valves into the ports.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #13 by clintonvillian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:25 pm

I thought someone else said that wouldn't be an issue? That within an revolution or two it would suck any excess through the system.... But I don't know.

You couldn't place the SNIPER prior to the supercharger and intercooler???

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #14 by clintonvillian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:31 pm

How do these guys get away with running the huge superchargers without intercoolers? Almost all "hotrods" with drawthrough carbs don't have intercoolers....

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:56 pm

The Sniper can be run before the supercharger but having an intercooler full of air/fuel mix is dangerous.
If there is a backfire the intercooler becomes a bomb.

Most racers including the team I work with use methanol with a blower which can get cold enough to form ice on the blower hat.
There are after coolers in the blower intake manifolds or racers use VP C16 gasoline.
Lower boost street guys with no intercoolers use low compression and longer duration cams.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #16 by Mdixon300f100 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:11 am

A blow-off valve would solve the over boost problem when the throttle plate closes. Either open vent or recirculated to the air box would be fine.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:42 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:A blow-off valve would solve the over boost problem when the throttle plate closes. Either open vent or recirculated to the air box would be fine.

The problem is not just overboost.
If you installed a blow off valve, until the valve opens the blower is still forcing too much air past the throttle plate making the throttle ineffective.
A positive displacement unit pushes a constant flow of air independent of throttle position if the blower is first in the line-up.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #18 by clintonvillian » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:50 pm

Would a controlled blow off valve work?

The read the negative ohms from the throttle position and open the valve? I am assuming of course the sniper would be able to control that....

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #19 by clintonvillian » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 pm

https://www.procharger.com/procharger-bypass-valves

It looks like this is exactly for the problem you described. The M112 has a valve built in that operates off of vacuum, when you let off of the throttle and it closes, there should be negative pressure below the throttle body. Above the throttle body would still be positive. Correct?


Here is the valve:
Image

Here is the vacuum actuator:
Image

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:24 pm

I hope I can explain this clearly.
The valve you see on the M12 is indeed a bypass valve.
Remember that a M112 has a throttle body in front of it and no restriction after it.
When the throttle body is closed enough to create a vacuum after the M112 so the engine can idle or just cruise along the highway with intake manifold vacuum, the M112 is still trying to pump from behind the barely open throttle which creates a pumping loss and effects fuel mileage at cruising.
The bypass valve opens as soon as a vacuum is developed which opens the inlet to the outlet to each other and pumping ceases eliminating the pumping loss and dropping the power to turn the M112 to less than 1 hp.

The bypass valve does not resolve the problem because a Carburetor or Throttle Body EFI must control airflow at it's throttle blades in order to have linear control and since the Roots, Eaton or Twin Screw superchargers are positive displacement superchargers that have a constant airflow with a wide open inlet side there is no way to have a linear control versus the throttle blade angle at the throttle body.

A turbocharger and Procharger and all other centrifugal pumps are not positive displacement and when the outlet is restricted or blocked pumping ceases as the compressor is driven into surge. A blow off valve clips the pressure spike as the centrifugal pump transitions to a non pumping state and the pressure is released from the intake system volume.

The positive displacement pumps do not stop pumping when there is a restriction and will continue to pump until something fails either by pressure or heat.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:32 am

Since you are going to run less than 8 lbs of boost would you consider running without an intercooler like "Old School"

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #22 by Mdixon300f100 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:17 am

I was thinking about this yesterday and was wondering, wouldnt it be far more complicated to intercool this setup since these units generally bolt directly to an intake? It would have to be built over a plenum and piped out to the inter cooler, then back to the carb and to the intake. Unless using a water to air intercooler bolted between the M112 and the intake manifold, non intercooler with water injection would be much simpler.

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Re: Progress on the '56. Help decide on this motor!

Post #23 by guhfluh » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:23 pm

Non-intercooled with the Sniper TBI ahead of the SC would be the way to go, but with that type of SC, I'd worry more about fuel distribution with the inlet and outlet style of the SC and fuel running through it. I'd want to run a tapered style adapter from the SC to a carb style OFFY C or Clifford vs the SC bolted to a custom open plenum manifold directly, but it may not be as bad an issue as I imagine.

It'd be better to run port injection and water/air IC below the SC like usual.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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