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Started my build

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blprice74
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Started my build

Post #1 by blprice74 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:07 pm

After spending MANY hours reading on this and FTE's forums, and bending FTF's ear off more than I probably should. I have decided to start my build. 1978 F100 Custom "Stepside" or "Flareside" (I really don't want to get into that argument). Three speed on the column. It will be a simple build. Open up the intake, go with the EFI exhaust manifold, simple carburetor (Autolite 2100?), New distributor, electric fan, 3g alternator, the cylinder and head work to be done by a trusted local machine shop at a very reasonable price. I am probably going to go back with the Chevrolet rockers unless someone can talk me out of it. Simple exhaust, stick with a Max 2 1/2" diameter, but I'll let the local shop do the work. I want all the connections welded. I'll have to get a new radiator, I pulled it this past weekend, and I remembered when it got replaced. It was a cheap brand, It is in bad shape. No worries. Still debating the rewire.... Honestly don't want to do it, but I swear I'll wish I had if I don't. I am sure it will end up needing a bore, and I'll probably go back with the HP 519C pistons. New vacuum lines, plug wires, and all new gaskets and hopefully I'll be good. Anything I've missed, please let me know, it will be my first build, and I definitely am open to suggestions.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:53 pm

Are you keeping the stock camshaft?

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68Flareside240
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Re: Started my build

Post #3 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:57 pm

Welcome, and to start there is no debate on the terminology. If it’s a Ford, it’s a flareside. Embrace it. :beer:

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #4 by blprice74 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:20 am

My plan is to keep the camshaft, but as you know plans can change. My biggest decision is do I want the HD exhaust manifold or go with a set of EFI manifolds. I am leaning towards the EFI set.

I was up late last night and did get the front grill assembly removed, so I can now come straight out with the engine. I am not in a hurry, as all the machine shops are closed because of the virus.

I'll probably have the engine out and disassembled next week and I'll have a better idea of what I'm up against.

I have plenty of photos... I've never been able to get them to upload here to this site.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:30 am

The reason I asked about the camshaft, When you use the Speed Pro H519P you will be lowering the compression and a little larger cam with more lift can help you regain the missing torque.

sdiesel
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Re: Started my build

Post #6 by sdiesel » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:18 pm

Exhaust, unless u are space confined u might be real happy with the efi exhaust, ONLY, if u have the factory stainless steel Y pipe with the collector.
It's not a good design, but far superior to the Walker pipe available now. The Ford pipe is a pita as it cracks at joints.

I like the HD. Manifold many do not , but they are thinking in terms of maximum efficiency at high rpms.
If u use the HD may I suggest u have it ceramic coated? Inside and out.
Often the HD'S will shrink a tad and sometimes warp due to the excessive hard use they have been subjected to.
Honestly u might look at a header type long tube design if u don't have the complete Ford system. As they have been generally accepted on this board as the best . Though u will have issues with those too: heat starter confinement space and noise.
2.5" is ideal.
Using the Ford b.b. twin pipe system even better in my view. And cheap as dirt from a wreck and fits as it should.
This 5.8 l Ford I bought a while back has that twin pipe system and it looks to be a very good open design to my eyes but I shift at 3000 rpm and never see need for more exhaust.
Last as for cam Paul is a good final authority but may I suggest that the final note at exhaust be the cam lope rather than the combustion " rap" , which will make u and neighbors crazy after a very short period of time.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #7 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:56 am

Well it appears as of today I will have quite a bit of time on my hands. I have made a few decisions... I am going with the EFI exhaust manifold. I agree with FTF about the right angles on the HD, and my days in college physics are coming back to me. I really would like to know factual performance data between the HD and the EFI, but I can only go with what I know. Since I will be replacing the lifters, I will go ahead and replace the Camshaft. I am not by any means knowledgeable about cams, and lift and such. I am trying to learn... And probably will one day say "I wish I had...." But for now probably will go back with the stock cam.... I cant thank all of you enough for your help and advice. I have honestly learned so much. I definitely will keep you posted on my build.
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:47 am

When you said " I'll probably go back with the HP 519C pistons" does that mean it had those pistons in it from a previous build?
Were you happy with the way the engine ran?

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #9 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:38 am

pmuller9 wrote:When you said " I'll probably go back with the HP 519C pistons" does that mean it had those pistons in it from a previous build?
Were you happy with the way the engine ran?


Pmuller, my apologies. The engine is stock. I will be replacing the Pistons with the HP519C set.
I did read your comments about the camshaft and I am currently researching it. Any further information would be greatly appreciated. I value your knowledge highly as I have been reading this forum for months.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:42 am

blprice74 wrote:Pmuller, my apologies. The engine is stock. I will be replacing the Pistons with the HP519C set.
I did read your comments about the camshaft and I am currently researching it. Any further information would be greatly appreciated. I value your knowledge highly as I have been reading this forum for months.
Brandon

No problem
Need to know more about what you want.
Were you happy with the way the engine ran.
What improvements would you like to have as far as the power band?

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #11 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:49 am

Honestly... The old gal has been a good one. My Dad kept it up very well. I can't say for sure how many miles it has, but I know it's rolled over twice.
Honestly I would love to have modest, realistic gains. Let the engine do it's own things. I know opening up the intake and exhaust is key, I am looking at doing the electric cooling fan, but when it comes to the internals of an engine.... Camshafts... Rocker arms... Etc.. I get lost. I do know that the Chevrolet rockers arms have peaked my interest.

If I can get 175 - 200 hp out of the gal and keep some low end I would be happy. I am not out to win any races...
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:10 pm

More info:
If your engine has the pistons with the small round dish offset to the side (which I suspect it does) those pistons have an advertised dish volume of 19cc.

The Speed Pro H519P pistons have a 25 cc dish volume so the compression ratio will drop from 8.6 to 8.2 which will decrease the engine torque.
A mild street cam with longer .050" lobe lift duration and higher valve lift will compensate for the loss and will take advantage of any intake and exhaust improvements.

The H519P pistons have the smallest dish of the available Hypereutectic pistons.
The only other "D" dish Hypereutectic piston is the Silv-O-lite 1186H which has a 26cc dish volume.
You do not want the round dish cast pistons as they have a tendency to break the lower part of the skirt off into the oil pan.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/899lcfvwyf004 ... n.jpg?dl=0

You can raise the compression by machining the block deck to bring the piston to the top of the cylinder at TDC.
It's called having the piston at zero deck clearance.
The benefit of a zero deck piston is it maximizes quench which reduces the engines tendency for detonation and increases chamber turbulence for better fuel mixture combustion.
The H519P piston at zero deck will bring the compression ratio close to 8.6:1

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #13 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:35 pm

Ok .. here is my plan. I have a close friend who is very well versed at pulling and building engines. I just spoke with him. He is excited to come help me pull this Engine. The plan is to have it out on Thursday. I know quite a few people on this and the other forum are eager to see what both the Pistons and the cylinders look like. When we get it pulled I will take all the pics I can of what it looks like and share.

Once we see what we have and are working with, we can make a better plan. I'll also go by my machine shop this week and speak with them again. I want to make sure they can do a "3 angle valve job" is that right? And also check to see how they verify no cracks. Trusting someone else is very hard for me.
But I am not skilled enough nor do I have the tools or equipment to do it. It is my money in the long run, so I will verify.
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #14 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:40 pm

pmuller9 wrote:More info:
If your engine has the pistons with the small round dish offset to the side (which I suspect it does) those pistons have an advertised dish volume of 19cc.

The Speed Pro H519P pistons have a 25 cc dish volume so the compression ratio will drop from 8.6 to 8.2 which will decrease the engine torque.
A mild street cam with longer .050" lobe lift duration and higher valve lift will compensate for the loss and will take advantage of any intake and exhaust improvements.

The H519P pistons have the smallest dish of the available Hypereutectic pistons.
The only other "D" dish Hypereutectic piston is the Silv-O-lite 1186H which has a 26cc dish volume.
You do not want the round dish cast pistons as they have a tendency to break the lower part of the skirt off into the oil pan.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/899lcfvwyf004 ... n.jpg?dl=0

You can raise the compression by machining the block deck to bring the piston to the top of the cylinder at TDC.
It's called having the piston at zero deck clearance.
The benefit of a zero deck piston is it maximizes quench which reduces the engines tendency for detonation and increases chamber turbulence for better fuel mixture combustion.
The H519P piston at zero deck will bring the compression ratio close to 8.6:1



While I am speaking with the machinist, I will also ask about machining the block deck. I have a feeling they are going to give me the look...which is fine. As I've stated before, I am an industrial electrician...I've worked around machinist most of my career...I am used to their looks.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:04 pm

About the valve job. Yes a 3 angle is fine.
I do not like a pinch seat where the valve angle is slightly different than the seat angle. Keep them both at 45 degrees.
You can also pick up some flow by adding a 30-degree back cut to the inside diameter of the 45-degree seat angle on an intake and/or exhaust valve.
http://enthusiastnetwork.s3.amazonaws.c ... nd%7C29:16

The biggest problem I see after a valve job is the valve seats are not all the same depth.
When the head is assembled you should be able to lay a straight edge across the top of the valve stems and see only a few thousanths difference in stem height.
This keeps the installed valve spring height close to the same and also insures the geometry is the same for all rocker arms.

I prefer the use of positive stop valve stem seals.
The seals are metal clad and the top of the valve guides need to be machined so the seals lock in place on the top of the guides.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #16 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:18 pm

pmuller9 wrote:About the valve job. Yes a 3 angle is fine.
I do not like a pinch seat where the valve angle is slightly different than the seat angle. Keep them both at 45 degrees.
You can also pick up some flow by adding a 30-degree back cut to the inside diameter of the 45-degree seat angle on an intake and/or exhaust valve.
http://enthusiastnetwork.s3.amazonaws.c ... nd%7C29:16

The biggest problem I see is the valve seats are not all the same depth.
When the head is assembled you should be able to lay a straight edge across the top of the valve stem and see only a few thousanths difference in stem height.
This keeps the installed valve spring height close to the same and also insures the geometry is the same for all rocker arms.

I prefer the use of positive stop valve stem seals.
The seals are metal clad and the top of the valve guides need to be machined so the seal lock in place on the top of the guides.


Paul,

So in this instance do I tell the machinist that I plan on using positive stop valve stem seals? Or do I purchase them and bring them with the engine? Or is it like the Pistons, I wait until we see what we need to purchase after they evaluate? Good stuff here... But you have just told me something I've never heard of.
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:37 pm

Machinist generally don't like to be "told" how to do a job even though you are the customer and it's your money.
Have a discussion where you say you would like to use a positive stop seal. (I use .530" Viton Seals)
If you come to an agreement let the machinist get the seals.
He may already have the seals and the cutter for the seals.

He will check for valve guide clearance. Generally the stock iron guides are not worn too badly.
If it need guides that will be another discussion.

Ask about the finer points such as back cutting the valves, and how close will the valve stem tip heights be when the head is completed.
Ask about having a clean up cut taken off the head so the head is flat and has a clean surface for the head gasket to seal against.

Of coarse First the head needs to be cleaned and checked for cracks especially in the combustion chamber area.
Ask about that process.

The valve springs and retainers will depend on your cam choice.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #18 by blprice74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:05 pm

Now your talking... See that's why you get paid the big bucks!! I knew all those crazy looks from the machinist meant something. And all I had to do, was change the way I worded it.

I will most definitely take your advice. I think my original point was that I have heard a few horror stories about people being sent home with a rebuilt engine, only to find a cracked head or something. As for the other... I figured they would not want to be told what or how to do the job, no more than I would... I honestly didn't know what or how to ask.

Your guidance is immensely appreciated. Please look me up if you ever make it to the upstate SC. I owe you a Beer! I can also take you to watch the best College Football Team play, of course my Alumni, The Clemson Tigers! Class of '96!
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:29 pm

Thanks for the invite. Someday in between viral outbreaks.

More Info:
I see you have a 1978 head. The rocker studs have a 5/16 nut that just tightens against the 3/8 stud shoulder.
In other words there isn't any rocker arm adjustment, just tighten the lock nut and go.
You have the option to replace the press-in studs with screw-in studs that will not back out of the head with extra spring pressure from an aftermarket cam set-up and will give you full rocker arm adjustment.

On the piston to block deck clearance:
If you want to zero deck the pistons install the crank with the end main bearings and the thrust bearing(#5), then install #1 and #6 pistons and rods without rings.
Bring the pistons to TDC and measure the piston to deck clearance.
Remove everything and take the cut off the block deck. Then clean and begin assembly.

There is also several hours of block prep you can do but can discuss that later.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #20 by blprice74 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:07 am

Please ignore my ignorance.. will this work with the Chevy rocker arms? Or. Should I stick with the Ford? Which one would be best for my application? Keep in mind I am looking for increased gains, but. I don't need to complicate matters. Im following your guidance because you know what your talking about, and my Dad would be my go to person on this, and unfortunately he's not able. Times like this I really wish I would have paid more attention and listened more, and most importantly helped him more on jobs like this...

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:24 am

Chevy rockers are used with the stock cam to get the valve lift above .400" where you start to see gains in torque.
If you use a higher lift aftermarket street cam that will give you .450" lift with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm then you use the stock 1.6 ratio Ford rockers.
As you get near .500" valve lift and above you switch to a roller rocker.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:33 pm

blprice74 wrote:Ok .. here is my plan. I have a close friend who is very well versed at pulling and building engines. I just spoke with him. He is excited to come help me pull this Engine. The plan is to have it out on Thursday. I know quite a few people on this and the other forum are eager to see what both the Pistons and the cylinders look like. When we get it pulled I will take all the pics I can of what it looks like and share.

Do yourself a favor, it will keep you sane when you assemble the engine.
Before you remove anything from the engine take pictures of both sides and front and back so you know where everything was mounted, sending unit locations and the orientation of the distributor.

As you take the engine apart put each set of bolts in a zip lock bag and label them.

Valve Cover
Side cover
Oil pan
Distributor hold down clamp and bolt
Front timing cover. Also put the timing tag that bolts to the front cover in the bag so you don't forget about it during assembly.
Water pump.
Thermostat housing
The two higher grade bolts that hold the cam thrust plate
The oil pump bolts.
If you have a rear sump pan there will be a nut that goes on a stud that extends off one of the main cap bolts that supports the oil pickup.
Engine mount bolts
Intake and exhaust manifold bolts and thick washers.
Ignition Coil mount bolt.
Alternator bracket bolts
Bell housing bolts
Starter bolts
Flywheel bolts
And any other small bolts you find
The head bolts, front crankshaft bolt and main cap bolts won't cause confusion.
When you are done removing the crankshaft and main bearings, bolt the main caps back on the block.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Started my build

Post #23 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:38 pm

pmuller9 wrote:... take pictures of ...the orientation of the distributor.


Great advice.
Also, put the engine on #1 TDC and take the pics of the distributor with the cap on and cap off showing rotor orientation at TDC
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #24 by blprice74 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:40 pm

I just read your post Paul... But luckily I think like you do. I have the sandwich Ziploc, the snack Ziploc, and the freezer Ziploc. I also am keeping a journal. As I remove hardware... I document it "driver's side firewall ground bolt", or "passengers side harness bolt" in the journal, then put the hardware in a Ziploc, with the count of bolts put in and a description. I also took probably 40 pictures today. I honestly was focused on vacuum lines. Awesome idea FTF...I can move #1 to TDC, and take pics, scribe a mark, note orientation of rotor. I am takIng my time. Today I didn't get too much done.... All the ground wires are now off that connect to the Engine, exhaust bolts removed at the manifold (just need to persuade the exhaust pipe to come on out of the stock Manifold). I was able to unwire both the alternator and starter. Water sending unit, oil sending unit unhooked, throttle cable unhooked, never could locate an automatic choke cable? I did unhook two vacuum lines that run down to the water inlet, and I think I need to remove the hoses going to the box on the passenger side at the front of the truck.
I think that is the EGR?? It looks horrible, does it ever get replaced? Battery removed and the water lines to and from the heater coil unhooked and set aside. I think I'm good to go, just unhook the driveshaft, remove exhaust pipe, and deal with that box, and I'm ready to go from what I can see. Unless I've missed something.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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Re: Started my build

Post #25 by sdiesel » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:08 pm

There is or was a sticky on conceptual engine builds.
Paul and the fellas put a ton of info in there
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #26 by blprice74 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:23 pm

Ok, I figured out what the box is... It is a charcoal canister. I understand what it does...but how often do we change it? Clean it? No idea on my end...

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #27 by blprice74 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:57 am

sdiesel wrote:There is or was a sticky on conceptual engine builds.
Paul and the fellas put a ton of info in there


So, I have just spent the last few hours reading an incredible amount of information on camshafts, timing gears, advancing, regarding. Thank goodness I'm at home this week, I'd be dragging. There are definitely some modest to incredible gains to be had from this engine, and most definitely the proper camshaft is an important decision. Ultimately, I do not want to lose any torque (it can move up the power band, I'm ok), and I want modest HP gains. Ironically, I have learned in the past two days that is not out of the question at all. I am working on a budget... But cuts in other areas can be made. I can wait on the wooden bed, I will enjoy driving the truck more than looking at that wooden bed.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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Re: Started my build

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:17 am

blprice74 wrote:... Awesome idea FTF...I can move #1 to TDC, and take pics, scribe a mark, note orientation of rotor...
Brandon


There is one other idea I would like to mention regarding installing the distributor. It has to do with the fact that the gears on the distributor and cam are helical cut. This means the distributor shaft has to rotate several degrees when the distributor is pulled out of the block and when the distributor is installed back into the block. Compounding the difficulty is the fact that the hex shaft on the end of the distributor also has to engage the oil pump drive quill at the same time the gears have to be meshing.
[sub hint: engage the end of the oil pump hex shaft that has the snap ring tensioner in the distributor end - never the oil pump end (it could disengage and fall into the depths of the oil pan )]
Here is how I do a distributor Remove / Reinstall:

1. Remove cap and wires. Place a mark on the block showing the housing and rotor locations. Call this rotor mark Rotor Location A.
2. Loosen the distributor. It may be seized in the block. Tap the housing gently until it breaks free.
3. As the distributor is drawn out of the housing the rotor will want to turn counterclockwise as the helical gears un-mesh. At some point the gears will separate and the rotor will spin freely. It is useful to make another mark on the block - with a grease pencil or Sharpie marker - where the rotor releases contact with the cam gear. Call this mark Rotor Location B. Remove the distributor completely. Be sure the oil pump drive hex shaft is removed at this point too.

A common source of anguish when installing the distributor is having the gears align properly AND having the hex shaft engage the oil pump. If the oil pump was not turned this should not be a problem. In a new build or rebuild the oil pump hex hole may be randomly oriented and the distributor will not seat completely in the engine until the hex shaft meshes with the oil pump.

TO INSTALL THE DISTRIBUTOR

1. Insert the hex shaft in the end of the distributor, snap ring end first. Holding the distributor housing roughly in alignment with the mark put on the block insert the distributor in the block opening. Align the rotor with Rotor Location B and lower the housing until the gears contact. At this point a little twisting effort on the rotor in the clockwise direction will help mesh the gears.
2. If the distributor slides completely into the block and the rotor is pointing at the mark Rotor Location A then congratulations! - you win! But if it stops about 3/8 inch short of being fully seated then the oil pump hex shaft is not aligned. Proceed to step 3.
3. Remove the distributor. With a large long bladed screwdriver (or a hex shaft from a 460 V8!) turn the oil pump a few degrees and try reinstalling the distributor as in steps 1 and 2 above. If it still does not seat repeat the process, turning the oil pump a few degrees until the hex aligns and meshes. Voila!
Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER on Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #29 by blprice74 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:49 am

Thanks FTF for everything... I put a damp towel in #1... Then after it blew out, I put a dowel and my daughter and I watched. When I was done the gap in the crankshaft lined up perfectly with the line going up to "TDC". Not bad for an old farm hand from SC on first try?

I removed the cover from the distributor. It was facing literally parallel to the firewall.. and I checked the spark plug wire it was facing.... #1 plug.

I got good pics

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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Re: Started my build

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:06 pm

To answer the question about low end torque with an aftermarket cam versus the stock cam.
This discussion will mainly focus on the dynamics at low rpm.

The primary contributor for low rpm torque is the intake valves closing point ABDC.
The sooner it closes the more air/fuel mixture is captured and the higher the Dynamic Compression Ratio.
We generally look at the .050" duration spec as the power band indicator and the .006" duration closing point as the detonation indicator.

The stock cam has an .006" duration of 268 deg. and a .050" duration of 192 deg.
The intake lobe center is set at 114 deg ATDC.
That puts the .006" intake valve closing point 68 deg ABDC and the .050" closing point at 30 deg ABDC.

Lets compare that to the Erson RV cam E270101. viewtopic.php?p=622796#p622796
The .006" duration is 270 deg (see cam lift report) and the .050" duration is 208 deg. Unlike the stock cam the intake lobe center is set at 106 deg ATDC.
In this case the .006" closing point is 61 deg ABDC and the .050" closing point is 30 deg. ABDC.

Note that the Erson .006" closing point is 7 deg earlier than the stock cam and the .050" closing point is the same as the Stock cam.
This is one of the reasons why there is no loss of low rpm torque when changing to a mild street aftermarket cam.
Instead the extra .050" duration gives a boost to the entire power band with extended upper rpm power.

The 300 six port volume compared to cylinder volume is another consideration per a previous discussion.

Valve overlap is another parameter in that it affects the low rpm combustion efficiency.
Just to keep this post from getting any longer the effects of valve overlap is something you can Google.
The 300 six isn't affected much till the .050" duration overlap approaches or exceeds zero deg.

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Re: Started my build

Post #31 by Wesman07 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:44 pm

Great comparison focal points PMuller, and excellent clarity.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #32 by blprice74 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:58 pm

Ok... Well it's 10:18 pm est and I've just finished for the day... I can say it was a good day. I now have the Engine pulled. It wasn't too incredibly bad...Today's goal was to get it out of the truck, and I did. I did not begin teardown.

I can't thank you guys enough for all of your advice and assistance. FTF, pmuller, and so many others. Had it not been for you all, I probably would not have attempted this Engine removal until further in the year. This has definitely been "life lessons" for me. Why you ask? Well if you are preparing for an engine rebuild, and it's your first:

1. Be prepared to change goals and plans, or otherwise plan on reaching deeper in your pockets. This week alone I've discovered I need a new radiator, and complete wiring system, a better Engine stand. I realized today that my plan to remove the diamond plate in the bed of the truck and go back with a wooden floor Is now unrealistic and unaffordable. A/C won't be a realization this year. But it's all ok. My plans shifted a little bit, but those items were "wants" ... Not "Needs"

2. I thought I had educated myself on this build. Spent months reading, asking questions, and researching. I've learned that my knowledge and skills are in their infancy, and ive only just begun to scrap away on the outer possibilities of an engine rebuild. Put it this way... until today, I didn't know what I did not know.

3. This CAN be a peaceful entertaining hobby to have. Early preparation was the key for me. Keeping up with what bolt/nut goes where may not sound appealing or worth it to some. But I know first-hand how important it is. My journal is very detailed on work completed each day, .and I've already referred back to my notes to aid myself. Yes all this takes time and patience...but it not only is a security blanket, it's always something I can look back on in the future or share with someone else. And I have to believe, even though it's time consuming, in the long run, it will save time. Time spent installing a part incorrectly or time spent trying to recall "what was I doing here?'

I will spend tomorrow getting the motor on a stand and begin disassembly. The engine stand we had today, even though it was rated at 1,000 lbs, buckled immediately. It just couldn't hold that weight. Harbor freight had.a 4 wheel Engine stand at a good price, hopefully they have 1 more. I'll get it secured in the stand and put a floor jack for extra support under it.

I've been taking good pics, and that will continue. I really can't say enough about how much this forum and the people who support it have help me. I appreciate everything. Stay tuned...the good info should be starting tomorrow. (Pics of the cylinder walls, the Pistons, etc.).
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #33 by blprice74 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:12 pm

pmuller9 wrote:To answer the question about low end torque with an aftermarket cam versus the stock cam.
This discussion will mainly focus on the dynamics at low rpm.

The primary contributor for low rpm torque is the intake valves closing point ABDC.
The sooner it closes the more air/fuel mixture is captured and the higher the Dynamic Compression Ratio.
We generally look at the .050" duration spec as the power band indicator and the .006" duration closing point as the detonation indicator.

The stock cam has an .006" duration of 268 deg. and a .050" duration of 192 deg.
The intake lobe center is set at 114 deg ATDC.
That puts the .006" intake valve closing point 68 deg ABDC and the .050" closing point at 30 deg ABDC.

Lets compare that to the Erson RV cam E270101. viewtopic.php?p=622796#p622796
The .006" duration is 270 deg (see cam lift report) and the .050" duration is 208 deg. Unlike the stock cam the intake lobe center is set at 106 deg ATDC.
In this case the .006" closing point is 61 deg ABDC and the .050" closing point is 30 deg. ABDC.

Note that the Erson .006" closing point is 7 deg earlier than the stock cam and the .050" closing point is the same as the Stock cam.
This is one of the reasons why there is no loss of low rpm torque when changing to a mild street aftermarket cam.
Instead the extra .050" duration gives a boost to the entire power band with extended upper rpm power.

The 300 six port volume compared to cylinder volume is another consideration per a previous discussion.

Valve overlap is another parameter in that it affects the low rpm combustion efficiency.
Just to keep this post from getting any longer the effects of valve overlap is something you can Google.
The 300 six isn't affected much till the .050" duration overlap approaches or exceeds zero deg.



I appreciate all the time you are taking to help me understand about this Engine. And please know, it's working. What you have just explained makes perfect sense, and you have given me good enough reason to change my mind on the camshaft selection...and with good reason! You're definitely an asset here.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Started my build

Post #34 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:35 am

A repeat of a cautionary note: Most 3-leg engine stands do not adequately and safely hold a 300. Use a 4-leg stand. I also prefer one that is entirely welded together - not a "collapsible" bolt together. Play safely.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Started my build

Post #35 by 68Flareside240 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:56 pm

I was in the same boat as you last year, and am finally getting close to wrapping mine up. I initially was going to do a bone stock rebuild, then changed my mind and started the "well while you are there" and went over my budget by about $1500. I used the Erson 270101 cam after it was recommended here. I think it will be a good choice for a daily driver. Paired with a Offy C, 500 Edelbrock, and headers. Probably not good choices for a daily driver, but time will tell. Really eager to see it run again, but got a ways to go on the truck first.

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Re: Started my build

Post #36 by 68Flareside240 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:08 pm

Echoing FTF on the engine stand, make sure it's a sturdy one. Big, long block. I used the Harbor Freight 4 legged and it's OK. Rolls around fine, but you can see it flexing. Another thing is you must be careful pushing it from the rear of the stand, even with a 4 legged model. On the HF, the front two legs are short, and pushing it any direction but straight forward from the rear, can get the center of gravity into no man's land and want to topple, especially when the wheel gets stopped by the tag end of a zip tie :roll:

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #37 by blprice74 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:06 pm

We all have those days, right? So I go to harbor freight, and they are sold out of the engine stands, said online "1 left". Lady told me they had one in the store in Anderson, SC. So off I went. Yup.... Sold out. Frustrated, I looked online and I found one at a local parts store. It was in stock, so I got it. It's 4 legs.
I got it out together and it wasn't bad. Then I went to mount it. 3 hours later, frustrated, I cleaned up, and will try again tomorrow. The way I was told to do it,. When I got it all together, there was no way I would put that Engine weight on it.

Eh? It happens.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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Re: Started my build

Post #38 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:15 pm

A hint: Do not align head of the stand to the crankshaft journals. That will make the engine top heavy and difficult to rotate. Instead align the axis of the head with an imaginary line about half way up the bores.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #39 by blprice74 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:18 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:I was in the same boat as you last year, and am finally getting close to wrapping mine up. I initially was going to do a bone stock rebuild, then changed my mind and started the "well while you are there" and went over my budget by about $1500. I used the Erson 270101 cam after it was recommended here. I think it will be a good choice for a daily driver. Paired with a Offy C, 500 Edelbrock, and headers. Probably not good choices for a daily driver, but time will tell. Really eager to see it run again, but got a ways to go on the truck first.


Yeah, no kidding. One could easily spend $10K on a rebuild if not paying attention. I'm going to search for your build and do some reading. I hope your driving this summer. I initially looked at headers, but now I am definitely going with a manifold. The biggest reason is due to the starter issue. I know they have a fix for that, but I could see myself driving through Walla Walla Washington and blow out my starter and the only thing for 50 miles is the OEM.

Anyway, good luck with your build. I'll go read your build.
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #40 by blprice74 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:38 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A hint: Do not align head of the stand to the crankshaft journals. That will make the engine top heavy and difficult to rotate. Instead align the axis of the head with an imaginary line about half way up the bores.


Good advice, if I had only gotten that far. So I was told to use the transmission side for the stand. "You will want to install your timing gears, right, well then use the transmission side.". This made sense to me.

So after removing my clutch and pressure plate, and flywheel, I am almost embarrassed to say this... I honestly was struggling to find a good location to bolt to. I was told to use the bolts that came out when I removed the bell housing. Yeah.... NO. So I then figured where the transmission bolted to the block is safe, but those bolts are definitely not long enough, and unsure what grade... Couldn't make out the marks. I tried to do a mock-up but always was only able to get three bolts in.

Tomorrow I'm going to go get 8 bolts that are grade 8. 4 will be 1 1/2" longer than the ones that hold the transmission to the block. The other 4 will replace the ones that came with the engine stand that holds the arms to the plate. Makes no sense to get grade 8 bolts for the engine and leave these bolts. All that does is move the failure point... I'm just aggravated
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #41 by blprice74 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:28 pm

Ok, so I was able to read up on this Engine stand. BTW it's the 1/2 ton AC Delco stand. It was less than $100 with tax.

Anyway, it does have decent reviews, I did find one similarity in alot of the comments. They all struggled with getting the plate mounted to the engine. The common solution is to remove the plate from the stand, bolt it on to the engine and pick the engine up high enough for it to slide back into the stand. Seems plausible to me, and that probably would solve the issue I was having.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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Re: Started my build

Post #42 by bubba22349 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:49 am

blprice74 wrote:
68Flareside240 wrote:I was in the same boat as you last year, and am finally getting close to wrapping mine up. I initially was going to do a bone stock rebuild, then changed my mind and started the "well while you are there" and went over my budget by about $1500. I used the Erson 270101 cam after it was recommended here. I think it will be a good choice for a daily driver. Paired with a Offy C, 500 Edelbrock, and headers. Probably not good choices for a daily driver, but time will tell. Really eager to see it run again, but got a ways to go on the truck first.


Yeah, no kidding. One could easily spend $10K on a rebuild if not paying attention. I'm going to search for your build and do some reading. I hope your driving this summer. I initially looked at headers, but now I am definitely going with a manifold. The biggest reason is due to the starter issue. I know they have a fix for that, but I could see myself driving through Walla Walla Washington and blow out my starter and the only thing for 50 miles is the OEM.

Anyway, good luck with your build. I'll go read your build.


There's lots of good info on all the best in OEM Ford starters in a recent post, check it out in the below link. Good luck on your build. :thumbup: :nod:

Starter Fitment
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80786
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Started my build

Post #43 by sdiesel » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:02 am

Engine stands
Nowadays I mostly use a forklift.
But cruise through Craigslist and now Facebook marketplace.
Within a weeks time u will find some crusty ol gear head selling an engine stand. It will be built rightly " with scrap I got when I worked at the shipyards" it will be hand cutout of half inch plate using quarter wall 3 inch pipe for the uprights and legs ; its front feet will be as wide as the back , ( so u can easier trip over them) " but the g dam thing won't tip over". Likely it will have mismatched dolly wheels one of which won't turn cause the fool left it sit out behind the shed in the dirt for a decade.
" It's ok "he says," it acts like a brake to keep it from rolling away on ya".
He's hung a hundred big blocks off it , has stickers
Hookers or moroso. stp if it's really old. Factory paint overspray from his many builds tattoo the stand.
It will take both his brothers and cousin to help load it in ur pick up ( don't bring a sedan thinking it breaks down and you can put in the trunk).
I chanced to buy one like this during last financial down turn.
The fellow said he built it in j college, had it for thirty years built numerous bb olds engines, he was broke up about selling it. I believe he near shed a tear, But needed the dough.
I gave him my number , told him to call me when he needed it back.

That stand I still use periodically.
And someday he may call or I may sell it to some kid happening by who needs it.
Stands are just one of those things.....

P.s. the Dolly's u buy from harbor if u have a center dip oil pan are PERFECT to hold a Ford inline six block for storage or even building up once u got the rotating mass assembled. U can sit a stool and spin the dam thing around much easier than u can working from a stand
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #44 by blprice74 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:32 am

So yeah... I've been looking for a stand for some time now. Since this will probably be the only use for it for some time, it was hard for me to justify anything over $200. (Now let me drop it one time and see what I say).

Funny thing you mentioned old modified stands... I was just writing my thoughts on what I can do to the one I have to improve on it. I have some brand new rubber casters I'm going to try. And I'm currently trying to figure out how to run a piece of steel under the engine and out the front to the floor.... Kinda like a kickstand. It would have to be able to move out of the way at times... That's the kicker.

I appreciate your link... I'll check it out.
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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wallen7
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Re: Started my build

Post #45 by wallen7 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:19 am

I have used 4 inch long bolts screwed into back of block, stand on end to assemble and wooden blocks under pan rails to stand lengthwise. like others have said the balance on cheap engine stands is off and they will tip over.

sdiesel
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Re: Started my build

Post #46 by sdiesel » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:43 am

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/pts ... 61765.html

Here is one!!! And u get a free inline BMW engine with it!!!!
Wow.
The old dodger musta held a dozen engines in it's day.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #47 by blprice74 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:21 pm

My my my... I don't think I would need that...
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #48 by blprice74 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:05 pm

I cannot figure this picture attachment out....

Anyway... Got the engine mounted. The valve cover removed. I was a little concerned about the buildup.of material on the head. The valve cover was baked in it. I was told it looks good for as old as it is. I am at a stopping point, so I'm going to give up for today.

I've gotten everything removed except for the harmonic balancer and timing gears. And of course the head. I had to locate my pullers.

Brandon
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

pmuller9
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Re: Started my build

Post #49 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:16 pm

You can post your picture over on the Ford-truck site and then copy the picture link to here.
When you are in the Post or Edit mode Go to the above bar and click on the "image" tag and paste the picture link between [image][/image].

Example: [image]Your picture link[/image]
Image

Where do you store your pictures?

Do you have a dial indicator?
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blprice74
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Re: Started my build

Post #50 by blprice74 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:13 pm

Image

Image

Image

Let's see if this works
1978 F100 Custom. Flareside. Inline 6-300. 3 speed on the column.

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