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300 alcohol pulling tractor

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Ekinslow67
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300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #1 by Ekinslow67 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:38 pm

So the 6000lb light limited super stock class is growing every year here in southern ky. The points winner last year is running a farmall 301 so I don’t see why a 300 couldn’t be doable. As of now it takes around 1200hp to be competitive. Would this be worth looking further into?

sqrbckguy38
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #2 by sqrbckguy38 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:07 pm

I don't know about 1200hp in this motor, but damn that would be awesome! I'd imagine lots of boost.
It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the bottom!

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #3 by Ekinslow67 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:28 pm

I think most are running an hx60. We are allowed a 3x3.5” turbo if I’m remembering correctly. I have heard a lot of people are having trouble with headgaskets under big boost but I’m allowed a 1” deck plate so I think I could get somewhat creative with head studs.

BigBlue94
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #4 by BigBlue94 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:49 pm

Ekinslow67 wrote:So the 6000lb light limited super stock class is growing every year here in southern ky. The points winner last year is running a farmall 301 so I don’t see why a 300 couldn’t be doable. As of now it takes around 1200hp to be competitive. Would this be worth looking further into?


Sure it's possible, but not very easy. Or cheap. You'll need lots of boost and probably nitrous to get there. And more compression than boost usually likes. Though I'm not familiar with what compression ratio that a blown alcohol engine likes to see.

The Frenchtown flyer is running one as a drag engine that's about 600 hp. That's with a special crossflow head that you simply cant acquire. The custom billet Alan Johnson head would be your best bet. They are rare and about $10,000.

To achieve 1200 hp, I'm not sure any of the 300's strong suits will be retained. Things like low end torque and durability.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:26 pm

The 2 bolt main caps won't hold that much power.
You would need to make a one piece lower block skirt that incorporates the main caps.

If you use a deck plate then you can increase the cylinder length to 7.3" and use a billet stroker crank with a long connecting rod.
I believe the class allows up to 370 cu in.
Having said the above I'm not sure how much room there is between the rods and the cam for more stroke.

Rules only allow the original cast iron head so you are looking at a big valve, ported version.
I'm wondering if you can get away with a "Sandwich Head" made from two heads cut horizontally to raise the port angle and increase flow.

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #6 by Ekinslow67 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:22 pm

OEM cylinder heads only, cylinder head must match brand of block. NO RECAST HEADS.
A. Lateral movement of valves only. Valves must maintain factory angle. In head valves must seat no lower than the bottom of original head on all 6 cylinders.

That’s how our rules read on cylinder heads. I’m not as concerned with displacement after watching several 301’s and even a couple 310 waukesha’s run very well. I’m more worried about rpm and not having to do a full rebuild during the season haha

I have been planning on aluminum rods, 390 pistons, roller cam, and as much head work as possible. Pairing this with 2 stage fuel injection, msd 8, and a holset hx60 I hope it will be fairly competitive.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:51 pm

At least use billet steel main caps with studs. The stock cast main caps will break under the rpm and load you will be running the engine at.

You will need 2618 alloy pistons to hold up under this load.
We use Diamond pistons but most of the 2618 alloy piston manufacturers will do just fine.

Keep the compression ratio under 10:1

What crankshaft are you going to use?

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #8 by Ekinslow67 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:39 am

Thanks! I’ll add that to the list. I should have said earlier that I’ll also girdle the bottom end.

As far as crankshaft i really don’t know. Is there anything off the shelf? I know i have read that some of the industrial engines had forged cranks but I haven’t looked into it very far yet.

pmuller9
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:54 am

Ekinslow67 wrote:Thanks! I’ll add that to the list. I should have said earlier that I’ll also girdle the bottom end.

As far as crankshaft i really don’t know. Is there anything off the shelf? I know i have read that some of the industrial engines had forged cranks but I haven’t looked into it very far yet.


There are no off the shelf aftermarket crankshafts. You would have to go with a custom billet steel crankshaft.

Steel crankshafts have been found in some industrial engines and were used in 1965-77 550-600 Series trucks.
Forging numbers are C5TE-B, C5TE-F, C6TE-G"

Image

Check with "sdiesel". I believe he still has one he would be willing to sell.
viewtopic.php?p=631774#p631774

drag-200stang
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #10 by drag-200stang » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:50 am

If the 300 cylinders are thin wall cast like the 200, FTF would know..I would down size the bore and keep the block walls as thick as possible, using good sleeves with the deck plate.. May have to do something with the valves hitting the cylinder wall..Sleeves with the shoulder on top will strengthen bolt boss and seal head gasket better.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

pmuller9
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:08 am

drag-200stang wrote:If the 300 cylinders are thin wall cast like the 200, FTF would know..I would down size the bore and keep the block walls as thick as possible, using good sleeves with the deck plate.. May have to do something with the valves hitting the cylinder wall..Sleeves with the shoulder on top will strengthen bolt boss and seal head gasket better.

When you are using Methanol the block can be filled solid.

drag-200stang
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #12 by drag-200stang » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:31 am

pmuller9 wrote:
drag-200stang wrote:If the 300 cylinders are thin wall cast like the 200, FTF would know..I would down size the bore and keep the block walls as thick as possible, using good sleeves with the deck plate.. May have to do something with the valves hitting the cylinder wall..Sleeves with the shoulder on top will strengthen bolt boss and seal head gasket better.

When you are using Methanol the block can be filled solid.

That will help the cylinder wall but it wont help holding the block strength if most is bored away for the sleeves ..It can pull away from the filler....I would think that for an extreme build that you would need the most reinforced block, head stud, deck area...But that is just my thought.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #13 by Ekinslow67 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:52 pm

It will be filled block and head. I’ll have to look into the sleeves. I’m hoping with the filler, girdle, and deckplate the block will hold together.

I’m going to make a few phone calls and see if I could use welded 351c heads and correct the valve angle with the deckplate. I have no clue if it will be legal or even work but thought it may be worth looking into.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:37 pm

If they won't let you use a sectioned V8 head then I would look at the Sandwich head which is still using the stock head with the same valve angles.
Image

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #15 by Ekinslow67 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:36 pm

pmuller9 wrote:If they won't let you use a sectioned V8 head then I would look at the Sandwich head which is still using the stock head with the same valve angles.
Image



That’s awesome! Thanks for the pictures. Is there a write up anywhere? I tried to search but couldn’t come up with much

pmuller9
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:46 pm


Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #17 by Ekinslow67 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:40 pm

Thank you. The way I understand it just machine both sides flat and add a few studs with a sealer of choice? I will likely weld all the outside seam just for good measure. I think it will be worth a shot and I don’t see why it won’t be legal.

Also, there was a post made in the thread that said they were having better luck out of factory cast cranks than forged? Complete engines around here are going for $150 or so, so if that’s the case then I could just try to keep easily killed parts in stock and possibly be money ahead.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:14 am

Will you be using a clutch or torque converter?

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #19 by Ekinslow67 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:45 am

It will be a 3 disk clutch with a ford 5000 trans and rear.

Here’s a video of the class from the weekend before last for reference.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZOwTHBMlQ

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:35 am

Thanks for the video.

Looks like those that are making a full pull have more than enough power and it becomes a matter of traction.
That sled weight sure moves up in a hurry towards the end.
Front end bounce looks like it can be a problem.

Sounds like you will need to make big power at 6000 to 6500 rpm.

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #21 by Ekinslow67 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:08 am

Yes, several of them are running 12 valve 5.9 Cummins converted to alcohol. That puts them anywhere between 359-370”. I guess that would be the best route but I’d sure love to see a 300 out there

pmuller9
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:08 am

You end up making up the difference in displacement with rpm but it is still a tall order.

The bottom end is not going to stay together with just a "Halo" style girdle.
The main caps crack at the higher rpm power bands because they are thin and brittle.
The caps need to be ground flat at the top for girdle support which weakens them even further.

A cast iron block girdle that bolts to the pan rails with .005" preload is a better support system.
Here is one that I had installed on a 455 Buick block for a turbocharger application.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rj1rdlukkjt07 ... .jpg?raw=1

The better and easier plan would be to make thick steel main caps to replace the first six.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #23 by BigBlue94 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:32 pm

Ekinslow67 wrote:OEM cylinder heads only, cylinder head must match brand of block. NO RECAST HEADS.
A. Lateral movement of valves only. Valves must maintain factory angle. In head valves must seat no lower than the bottom of original head on all 6 cylinders.

That’s how our rules read on cylinder heads. I’m not as concerned with displacement after watching several 301’s and even a couple 310 waukesha’s run very well. I’m more worried about rpm and not having to do a full rebuild during the season haha

I have been planning on aluminum rods, 390 pistons, roller cam, and as much head work as possible. Pairing this with 2 stage fuel injection, msd 8, and a holset hx60 I hope it will be fairly competitive.


390 pistons are heavy, and require a 4.050" bore. That's .050" over stock, and is thinning out the cylinder walls quite a bit. Just FYI
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #24 by Ekinslow67 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:56 pm

I’ll look into the main caps! Would you just make them identical to the factory ones?

Also, what pistons would be better to use?

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:33 pm

Ekinslow67 wrote:I’ll look into the main caps! Would you just make them identical to the factory ones?

You can keep it simple and just make them with flat sides and top.
Just make sure the #5 cap is the correct thickness for the thrust bearing.

Image

You will be looking at custom 2618 alloy pistons.
We normally use Diamond pistons.
Talk to Bruce Walker at BWE piston rings about using a Dykes upper ring and a ZGS second.
Bruce can also make you a set of pistons.
http://bwepistonrings.com/

It will be a simple piston without valve pockets and will need about a 12 cc dish to give you around a 9.5:1 compression ratio

Use a 6.535" long aluminum rod with the BBC .990" piston pin set up for a 2.100" connecting rod crankshaft journal.
This will give you an array of SBC bearings to choose from.
The longer than stock rod allows a shorter and much lighter piston and reduces piston side loading on the cylinder wall.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #26 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:45 pm

I know of someone who has a 240 block sleeved down to 3.7XX that he will part with.
PM me if interested
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Ekinslow67
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #27 by Ekinslow67 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:17 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I know of someone who has a 240 block sleeved down to 3.7XX that he will part with.
PM me if interested


May be a dumb question, but what benefit would that have?

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:42 pm

Ekinslow67 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I know of someone who has a 240 block sleeved down to 3.7XX that he will part with.
PM me if interested


May be a dumb question, but what benefit would that have?

I suspect the thinking there was thicker cylinder walls.

The problem is the the smaller displacement won't allow the use of a Holset HX60 with a reasonable rpm range meaning you would need a smaller turbo and be short on power.
Secondly it would require a considerable notch in the bottom of the cylinder wall to clear the aluminum connecting rod.

If you bore out the cylinders just enough to clean up the wall, say .030" over and do a total block fill there won't be a need for sleeves.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #29 by wallen7 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 pm

There was a Hobby class where I used to race that had a 235 cubic inch rule. The guys would install sleeves to stay below the max in a 240.

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #30 by Ekinslow67 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:14 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Ekinslow67 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I know of someone who has a 240 block sleeved down to 3.7XX that he will part with.
PM me if interested


May be a dumb question, but what benefit would that have?

I suspect the thinking there was thicker cylinder walls.

The problem is the the smaller displacement won't allow the use of a Holset HX60 with a reasonable rpm range meaning you would need a smaller turbo and be short on power.
Secondly it would require a considerable notch in the bottom of the cylinder wall to clear the aluminum connecting rod.

If you bore out the cylinders just enough to clean up the wall, say .030" over and do a total block fill there won't be a need for sleeves.


That’s what I’m thinking. Hopefully this will turn into a build thread before too long. There’s a farmall M with a 4 cylinder that’s somewhat competitive Iv seen a few videos so that has given me some hope.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDj7xd7QI8U

It’s at 6:05 for anyone who doesn’t want to watch the entire thing

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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #31 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:24 am

wallen7 wrote:There was a Hobby class where I used to race that had a 235 cubic inch rule. The guys would install sleeves to stay below the max in a 240.

It is possible that was what this was done for as it came from that neck of the woods.
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Re: 300 alcohol pulling tractor

Post #32 by wallen7 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:47 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
wallen7 wrote:There was a Hobby class where I used to race that had a 235 cubic inch rule. The guys would install sleeves to stay below the max in a 240.

It is possible that was what this was done for as it came from that neck of the woods.





That was at Lancaster SC, they called them "sleevebacks"

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