1:6 rocker vs. 1:6 roller tip

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Matt and All:

I think Mike is very close to an accurate estimation of HP/torque increase for a slight increase in valve lift.

I do have to clarify Mikes statements a little. He said "the lifter opens a little higher and a little faster (adds approximately 3 degrees to the valve duration)".

I think he meant the valves open a little higher. The lifter follow the lift on the cam lobe. The rocker multiplies that lift.

The rockers don't change the duration on the cam. They will change increase duration slightly at .050" of lift since they open the valve slightly faster. Duration measured at .050" of valve lift is the standard of measure for most performance cam manufacture.

I also agree with Mike on the value of a Dual roller timing chain cam drive.

Matt- given your engines level of stockness, it would make sense to seek increased engine performance by using a bolt-on enhancement like the 1.6:1 rockers. They will require little wrenching and no tuning at all. Personally I'd go with the stock type with your engine package.

A reground cam does not comprise cam lift. It just changes the base diameter of the cam lobes. Lift remains the same.

Your butt-o-meter will have to be fairly sensitive to feel the difference.

Yes, a rich mixture will slow the car down. It also waste expensive fuel. A well tuned Air/Fuel mixture is a happy mix. Too lean is also bad for performance, runs hot and hard on an engine.

That's my two cents.

Adios, David

 

[AzCoupe]

David is correct, I didn't quite say that as intended. Obviously, it does not change the cam duration. Lets try that again.

Since the lifter opens a little higher and a little faster, in effect, it would be equal to adding approximately 3 degrees to the duration, while maintaining a stock rocker ratio. (1.65 = 4* and 1.7 = 5*).

Better?

 

[wsa111]

Matt, since you have a stock cam why waste your money on any upgrades.
If you have the $$$ step up to the next level & install the 1.6 or the 1.65 rockers with a decent camshaft. Horsepower costs money if you have the money go for the best, if not just stick with the stock engine.
This post should come to an end if the owner does not have the $$ to upgrade to a professional level.
Matt you raised a good topic but you have to be willing to fork out big bucks to really benifit any noticable gains. William

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy All:

I apologize for sounding so disagreeable, but I am in disagreement with William for only allowing that the high dollar/more money is the only acceptable approach to getting the most out of our little jewels.

I really appreciate the "cheap" road to getting better performance. By "Cheap" I mean being thoughtful, having a plan, learning and trying to get the most out of the hobby dollars spent. Like Bens $85.00 find. Matt asked the questions and a bunch of info has been shared and reviewed as a result.

It is easy to get caught up in just throwing more money at a project, but that approach isn't as satisfying to me as finding, making, modifying, adapting or removing something to refine the performance of my engine. If that's what works for you great. Yes, there is a place for full roller rockers, but maybe not for Matt- with this engine- at this time. Who knows where or when this info may come back to him and be just right at that time. Keep the questions coming.

It is a wonderful time for our engines. So many choices and new options emerging. The key will always be for each of us to decide where, when and how far we want to go. The questions, their answers and info offered here helps each of us to figure that out. Keep the questions coming- money or not!

Again, I apologize for disagreeing. I do appreciate the knowledge and experience that William brings to these discussions.

But that's just my two cents- for what it's worth.

Adios, David

 

[wsa111]

David, you don't have apologize. I know your idea is to get some gain with the least amount of $$ spent. And that makes sense in this case.
the main thing to remember is have a matched combination of add on or upgrades.
If you put a larger carb on get a camshaft,cylinder head,lighter valves-proflo type,headers,exhaust & ignition. the complete matched combo will give you the most performance.
for the rich readers get an argie or aussi head, use all the above mods with a turbocharger.
i don't mind spending the extra bucks to get the best. As i stated before let you walet be your guide. William

 

[Lazy JW]

I don't want to remove the head as the car is running great, so that eliminates the 1:65.....

I have been following this interesting thread and can't resist jumping in. I believe that Matt's quote above is the pivotal point. There is just no way that the roller tipped rockers will ever pay back in dollars and cents, but since when does our hobby have to make sense? As far as reduced wear goes, so what if you wear out a set of valve guides in 100,000 miles? It won't cost $415 dollars to have them replaced, so there is no payback there. But if you do use the roller rockers at least the rockers should still be good. And then you could put in a bigger cam to go with them. I remember reading about one of the gun writers who toured the famous gunmaking firm of Holland & Holland in England. The most expensive gun in the showroom amongst highly engraved custom guns was a relatively plain looking double rifle. When he asked the tour guide why this plainer rifle was so much more valuable, the guide smiled and said "Because this one is beautiful on the inside". Sometimes we just need to do what our hearts desire and not try to make sense. I say go for the roller tips. At least you will know they are in there.
Joe

 

[wsa111]

Joe, your post is right to the point.
matt_hue wrote:
I don't want to remove the head as the car is running great, so that eliminates the 1:65
That statement is the reason i made a final response.
David your knowledge is greatly appreciated on the older models especially. Your knowledge is vastly superior in available less expensive componets for these engines,just from experience.
This forum works as a team to provide the novice & the professional with up to date products as well as older known positive gems from the past.
All I have to say is if you have the money there is a much improved & designed mouse trap out there.
This includes camshaft profiles that require 100# seat valve spring pressure to low friction valve train componets.
If you want to go back 40 years so be it.
My position is from a professional background working in the industry for 40 years & have kept current on the latest techology available.
The best products have yet to surface, such as cylinder heads & turbochargers.
Owning a ford lightning truck which is supercharged makes you realize the great potential of forced air induction, especially on the older cylinder heads. The potential using the latest cylinder head designs is mind boggling. William

 

[addo]

I'm not selling or promoting anything, simply speaking from experience.

Going from stamped steel rockers to roller rockers on a GM six, we noticed a quieter idle. Smoother idle. Lower operating temperatures. All of this from startup. I can't comment on whether performance increased.

Install was easier than the Ford six because of the existing oil-through design.

Regards, Adam.