200 block breaks at what HP???

[Anonymous]

Just curious......a stock Ford 5.0 block (late model, thin wall, roller style) can handle about 500 HP before it breaks (Thin main bearing webs).

The older 1968-1972 302 blocks can handle about 650 HP - - -

- - - but them stinkin' little 2.3 liter blocks are good for WAAAY more than that, even!!!! (What an anomaly they are!!)

Anyone know what the HP potential is for a 200 block before it breaks?
I am staying with the last year production "Big Bell" low-mount starter 200 blocks only.

I know there are some really powerful Australian racers running in the 9's, but I think there may be some differences between their engine blocks and the ones made in the USA.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

yeah but those 2.3L's have more cast iron in them then a 200 block. I mean for god sacks the head is basicly a block of cast iron with ports in it (flat and milled on ALL sides) I think they have a thicker main webing on them too. actually I don't think I have heard of a 2.3 breaking out the mainwebs....hell th eonly block "failures" I know of on a 2.3L are a bottom end letting loose and pokeing holes in the block.

I think the 200 looks fairly stout. don't forget the stress from a turbo motor is not has bad on the motor as one from a nitrous or NA motor. although the main webbing is kinda thin in there..

 

[Asa]

i really doubt that anyone has pushed one hard enough to get the bottom end to break
shoot, Does10s is probably the one furthest out there, and so far (unless i'm behind the curve) he's only popped a headgasket through detonation

i think you'll only get guesstimates on this one

 

[Anonymous]

shoot, Does10s is probably the one furthest out there, and so far (unless i'm behind the curve)

maybe you are...
drag-200stang is at 450 HP and pushing thr bar higher.
( 450 hp / best 1/4 mile 9.85 @ 139 )
I kind of forgot about him.

I guess if anyone would have broke one by now it would have been him. I wonder what prep work has been done to his.

 

[addo]

There's no intentional design difference between countries, and blockfill isn't common down here. It might be that some 9 second cars are part-filled but the 10-somethings aren't. With the equivalent GM sixes here, bore flex is an issue way before things actually split.

Plus, I know you're too patriotic to suggest Aussies do a better job of casting iron.

 

[Anonymous]

Plus, I know you're too patriotic to suggest Aussies do a better job of casting iron.

I like Aussies too much to say that they don't do a better job building engines than us.

 

[MustangSix]

Plus, I know you're too patriotic to suggest Aussies do a better job of casting iron.

Having seen US and Aussie block up close, I will say the Aussie castings are much, much cleaner. Less casting flash, fewer part lines, smoother finish, if any of that means anything. A 250 Aussie crank looks practically polished next to a US 250 crank.....

 

[Anonymous]

Having seen US and Aussie block up close, I will say the Aussie castings are much, much cleaner. A 250 Aussie crank looks practically polished next to a US 250 crank.....

ahemmmm.......Non-union labor?? :smash:

 

[addo]

Union labour down here.

*Goes off whistling Solidarity Forever...*

 

[rickwrench]

It's simply the difference between worn out patterns and core boxes that have formed ten million plus molds (usa) vs the shiny, barely used Oz patterns.
Rick(wrench)

 

[Anonymous]

There are loads of South American blocks developing 330-350HP in race trim at over 9K rpms with forged/destroked cranks. Not many Falcon guys are much into forced induction down there though. I'd guess a similar block, with a lot less rpms, would be good for over 500Hp under boost.

 

[addo]

:idea: Aha!

The Coriolis effect alters grain formation while the casting cools. Relative to the force vectors of a built motor, southern hemisphere blocks are thus stronger.

 

[Anonymous]

:idea: Aha!

The Coriolis effect alters grain formation while the casting cools. Relative to the force vectors of a built motor, southern hemisphere blocks are thus stronger.

Nope - the water drains from the bathtub and swirls in the opposite dierection, that's all! :smash: :rolflmao:

 

[boston774]

Just curious......a stock Ford 5.0 block (late model, thin wall, roller style) can handle about 500 HP before it breaks (Thin main bearing webs).

The older 1968-1972 302 blocks can handle about 650 HP - - -

Hmmmmm - I seem to remember that by using a good sonic checker, you could reliably get a shocking amount of horsepower out of a stock block. Basically, looking for a "good" one with very little core shift, and consistent cylinder wall thickness. Don't know if that helps - my guess is ~350/400 NA, maybe 550/600 with power adder. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but revs kill quicker than boost...



What are the weak points of the stock 200? I don't get the sense that there are any inherent in the bottom end, maybe rods and pistons? They seem to have a pretty good oiling system.

Out of curiosity, what's going on with your motor? The most recent posts I read indicated you were looking at a combo with the upcoming FSPP head and a turbo.

 

[MustangSix]

The weak point in the bottom end is likely the pistons. Hypereutectic or forged pistons would be needed to handle the increased cylinder pressure and rpm at levels above 300 hp or so. The same scenario plays out in a 5.0, or over 50hp per cylinder. You may be able to push the stock pistons to 60 hp per cylinder, but that would be a risk, esp at high rpm.

 

[boston774]

Makes sense - I do remember a college buddy who worked for Ford powertrain mentioning that any time you got close to 90-100hp/litre, you really needed to step up in terms of strength of parts.

He also was very firm that a good balance job made a HUGE difference in durability, especially when you had good machining.

 

[80broncoman]

:idea: Aha!

The Coriolis effect alters grain formation while the casting cools. Relative to the force vectors of a built motor, southern hemisphere blocks are thus stronger.

That kinda reminds me of those english electric engineers saying that eletricity flows better to a positive ground. :roll: Yet we all know how well lucas eletrics have taken over the auto wiring industry.

 

[addo]

I think there are a few aspects of "black art" in casting. We're an awfully long way from being able to package a lot of seemingly simple activities into a perfect imitating set of instructions.

Jim! Your beer's warm; come and get it... (That Lucas fridge again. )

 

[boston774]

That kinda reminds me of those english electric engineers saying that eletricity flows better to a positive ground. :roll: Yet we all know how well lucas eletrics have taken over the auto wiring industry.

My father owned several BSAs in his "yout". He is fond of referring to Lucas as "Prince of Darkness". What boggles my mind is that they also build instrumentation for the Spits and Hurricances. Oh well.

 

[xctasy]

The open side plate block on 161/173/179/186/202 Holdens in Australia is able to see 7000 rpm and well over 450 hp in turbo form without breaking anything. They have either steel or 12 counterweight cranks, both 12 pounds heavier than the stock 10 counterwieght cast iron cranks. The stock ones were okay to 6500 but vibrated at about 4800 to 5300 rpm because of the lack of weight.

The fully encased block on a Ford will be less prone to distortion, but the crank will be less smooth than on someother sixes. The main bearings are on the small side, but not too small. Most of the issues with the abilty for a block to carry power are infact related to the resonance of the harmonic blancer, crank flange and timing gear. In these areas, the 144/170/188/200/221 Fords are a little bit of a risk at high rpms. The crank flange is rather small, the thrust isn't taken up at number 7 bearing like it is on Chevy and Holden sixes, which is sometimes a problem. The front timimng gear can feed resonace to the cam. The later Aussie 200 and US/Aussie 250's had much bigger V8 crank flanges and bigger main bearings, so at high revsm the engine is stronger than the little versions. The US 250 would have to be the strongest of all blocks and Ford cranks.

Thing is with a turbo, you don't need 7000 rpm, so any 200 would hack 450 hp with a good set of cast pistons and good rods. Many Aussie 202 Holdens are running with 12 to 20 pounds of boost are surviving with just a set of ACL pistons




Regarding Lucas, George had some bad relatives...

My father owned several BSAs in his "yout". He is fond of referring to Lucas as "Prince of Darkness". What boggles my mind is that they also build instrumentation for the Spits and Hurricances. Oh well.

Yeah, they lost money on the Spit Fire's helped win the war with a little fortification from the Allies, and then spent the next 45 years making money selling fuses, condesors, caps and points for crap systems made from muck metal and poor phenolic plastic. These days, any Lucas dissy in America either gets thrown away into the abyss or replaced with an aftermarket electronic parts from any of the American companies. (Petronix, Bosch etc)

I've had lots on Minis, and I can tell you, Lucas was a good at conducting electricty as piece of dry slate.