250 cu into a 65/66 Mustang

[250in66Stang]

when I was young I started with a Honda S800 Coupe 67 HP at 8500 RPM. As I grew older I started to love the power at the bottom end. That´s the reason for the 250.
By now I´m repositioning hood & doors because the gaps were no good and I am removing `thousands´of dents ! After that everything will be sandblasted. I ordered a lot of parts but it will takes some weeks until I get them. I had to order the stock steering components because I found a wild mix of l6 and V8 steering parts in my Mustang , no way to use that for TUV. This way I will have the chance to drive my Mustang with a new steering ( besides the gearbox itself which seems to have the usual play) and can decide if Im happy with it or need a rack and pineon solution.

Paul

 

[bmbm40]

Sounds like you are making progress, I am sure it will be a great car when finished. Mustangs are popular and seem to hold their value so it is a good investment if you can do a lot of the work yourself. Plus they look good and are fun to drive. Keep us posted.

 

[chad]

"...or need a rack and pineon solution..."
I thought the TUV would not allow? What does that stand for in english? & who R they?
Thanks.

 

[xctasy]

"...or need a rack and pineon solution..."
I thought the TUV would not allow? What does that stand for in english? & who R they?
Thanks.

If its got an engineering certification via some decree, the TUV can enter into an agreement to use it. Normally, it requires a certification engineer to under write the alteration, then apply for TUV aprroval. New Zealand and Australia has run those systems for years because we are more likely to do dumb engineering changes than any American or German would ever consider. US personal liabilty laws overan the problems with car modifications, but not in Germany. The trick is to buy a US kit, and then check the TUV for the process to certify. AMG do modifications...its easy for MB engineers, but for a little guy, the Deutch system requires quite an amount of tenacity and smarts. The basic anthem is that on an autobahn at top speed, there is no margin for error.

You won't remember the four wheel steering Honda Preludes? TUV wouldn't certify them as safe. And the Citroen CX 2200? They wouldn't allow the car to be sold in Germany untill the clutch system, power braking and hydopnematic suspension was German engineer approved. After Merceades put a 6.8 in the 450SEL, and they used the Citroen suspension patents for the IRS, both Merceades and Citroen got TUV approval. It was a real battle, even for Merceades. For Citroen, it nearly sent them to Chapter 22.

Modifaction requires a mandatory MonteCarlo lane change (full lock at 120 km/h), and a dozen other E code European Union new car tests, so suddenly, to use a rack and pinion, another car of the same power and appointments must be car must be benchmarked, and everything else brought up to standard. This is done by AMG on a regular basis with new cars, but provided the older car passes the torsional rigity requirements, brake and steering mods can be taken up, and after the right modifcations and marks have been laid down, there you have it, a TUV approved rack and pinion 250 Mustang...

 

[chad]

TUV What does that stand for in english? & who R they?

So it's like our (federal) Department of Transportation?

I guess those "rat rods" may have been shipped in/back out? or may B only approved 4 'parades'? (some types of provisional permits?)

 

[xctasy]

Technical Inspection Association is TUV in English

TUV=Technischer Überwachungs-Verein.

A TUV Approved stamp is required for any non standard modification in Germany. The test method requires either European Union approval or DOT approval before the TUV stamp is affixed.

You cannot have any mods fitted to your car that aren't TUV Approved.

That requires systems traceability to an approved quality standard like ISO9000. That takes care of there risks as an approver of vehicle modifications. Its doubrfull a few steering ratio changes, or non standard but standard looking parts with DOT approval will ever be turned down, but if you streatch the friendship, the TUV always say no. If it comes to Germany form the US, they just require DOT approval, and then anything else that they are nervous about will be listed when the inspection is done.

From Wikipedia

No German-registered road vehicle may be operated on public roads without a certificate from the TÜVs or one of their competitors. However for the last two years independent inspectors have also been entitled to grant this certification. In most cases the certificate has to be renewed every two years. A pass in the mandatory roadworthiness and smog test is indicated by tamper-proof decals on the license plate. The TÜV have become so closely associated with this safety inspection ('Hauptuntersuchung') over the decades that the very word 'TÜV' is often used as a synonym for it.

If you work with the TUV,

Many of the TÜV organizations also provide certification for various international standards, such as ISO9001:2008 (quality management system) and ISO/TS16949 (automotive quality management system).

So nothing is impossible, you just have to prove the modifications are done to a standard.

 

[chad]

they gotta black belt (or is this 1 a sigma 6?) in ISO-9000,
Thanks for the postback...
Oh well, somebody's gotta look out for us all. It's come to any 1 under 12 yrs. old w/o a helmut bike ridin round here can get in deep doo doo. I guess the after effects of lack of personal responsibility (something I don't subscribe to) has generated state control of just bout everything.

puttin a 250 in a pre '69 'stang can get pretty dangerous (sarcasm IS intended here).
8^0

Y am I so jaded? Been livin in da woods (60 yrs) too long...

"...Honda S800 Coupe..."
Did that have the wide black plastic oval window frame? I think I remember them (reminded me of a hightop sneaker!) and
YOUR english is fine, Paul (rather write that in German, but it's pretty much the same, no?).

How's the steering component issue goin?

 

[250in66Stang]

the Honda was a two seater sports car build from 1966 to 70 ( from 1964-1966 the S6oo) looking smilar to english sport cars like the MG Midget. They had watercooled 4Stroke DOHC engines.
I guess you remember the Z600 which was a very different car.
In Germany all cars have to pass every two years a technical examination to get a stamp on the license plate which shows that the car is road worthy. Brakes , shocks , lights, everything has to be in good condition to get the stamp.
If anything on the car is different than stock it has to examined and approved by the TUV too and they write it down into the cars papers. Even if you just want to go from 205er to 215er tires it can be a hassle if you don´t have the Ok of the cars manufacturer that the size of the tires are possible.

The things get realy worse when you want to import and get a historic car road legal. The vehicle has to be 30 years old, and changes are only allowed if they were usual when the car was build ( within 5 years)
For the first initial examination they look very- I mean VERY- close to the car !!

The good news are that for the following examinations it will get easier as I know someone working for a company similar to the TUV ( but they are not allowed to do the initial ex.)

I hope the 250 swap will be not such a problem as the V8 had more power, and a 69 engine is within the 5 year limit. And, it will be hard for them to recognize. The T5 with the T5 bell looks pretty stock to me, so I hope to the TUV guy too!

The steering will be different because its easy visible. So I will use the stock manual steering in the beginning and look for a stock looking rack and pineon solution.
Any suggestions?
As I have already ordered the stainless steel Inline6 header I will have the chance to pre locate any clearance issues with the avaiable steering racks. Unfortunately the shipping costs to Germany prevent a "try and error thinking".

Paul

 

[chad]

prevent a "try and error thinking"

keep talkin Paul. I believe there's some really good guys (not many womem) here who can save ya on dat...
;^ )

thanks 4 the model info, "the Z600" I'm thinkin of seemed like a later model than the S600 U cite but that may have been just when I saw them around...late '70s? Still remember that big plastic oval rear window frame.

 

[bubba22349]

The steering will be different because its easy visible. So I will use the stock manual steering in the beginning and look for a stock looking rack and pineon solution.
Any suggestions?

TCP has a nice rack n pinon unit, they also have some very nice front and rear suspension parts.

http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/rack.html

 

[65HT200FIN]

Is the alloy head narrower so that the carb still fits under the bonnet off a 65/66 model?

No, its wider but will fit the 66 hood better as the carb can be mounted lower than a log headed 250. The 250 engine is 42.18 to 42.31 mm (1.663 to 1.666") taller than the 200, but the Classic Inlines manifold was designed around the confines of the 66 hoodline.

The best option for you is to find locally the 5.0/302/351 V8 C4 or C5 or the AOD automatic.

The TUV has some regulations you must get around in that the car must be substaintially stock, so starting with a factory parts is best. T5 is an easy swap too, but you need to decide what you really really want.

250 + CI alloy head and 65 hood? do i need scoop? now i have 200 with CI alloy head. And i have 15mm clearance carphat to hood.