200ci Alternative 200 six connecting rod

This applies only to 200ci

chad

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G.D.,
Nice lookin jewelry.
Think I'd wear it around my neck ona string...
8^ )
 

rocklord

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Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.
 

fast64ranchero

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rocklord":3broelmq said:
Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.

I looked for early EAO 2.0L pinto rods, I was unable to find stock length unless I went through Burton in the UK. looks like everyone goes to 5.050" and that's a tad too long for a good ring pack on a custom piston.

If you could find some, the stock length would work, (and you wouldn't have to say I have Toyota rods in my Ford Engine :LOL:)
 

drag-200stang

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The pinto rods are a direction to go but do not seem to be as readily available...The 24mm pin is not as the popular as 22mm with more wall thickness selections...I believe the pinto big end is wider than the 1jz which is already too wide...When I was researching a better rod all I could find is the 1jz and the high performance rod mfg. by me had some on the shelf in a six pac...
Something i noticed is what is listed for the big end and pin end on the 1jz is about .0004 different than the 2jz which I thought was odd, it maybe just a print mistake...Just make sure the the bearing you get fits your rod with the right crush and the pin you get fits the rod you have with the proper clearance.
 

rocklord

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Another alternative rod would be from the Ford 1.6L Kent engine. Here's a set (4) of H-beam rods on eBay for $190.00 ($380 for 6 +2), free shipping:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-Rod ... ctupt=true

Specs:
Forged 4340 aircraft chrome moly quality steel
Center to center length 125.17mm (4.928")
Big end diameter 52.91mm
Small end diameter 20.62mm
Big end width 26.77mm
Small end width 22.35mm
3/8" ARP 2000 bolts
 

62Cometman

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I feel as though i should know this, or maybe i already do and forgot :roll: , but is the 200 rod the same as the 170? Im pulling the 170 from my comet this next winter and was planning a proper rebuild for boost and was worried about the rods so these would be a piece of mind if they would work. I cant find any specs via length on the factory 170 rods.
 

rocklord

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62Cometman":whsnoag3 said:
I feel as though i should know this, or maybe i already do and forgot :roll: , but is the 200 rod the same as the 170? Im pulling the 170 from my comet this next winter and was planning a proper rebuild for boost and was worried about the rods so these would be a piece of mind if they would work. I cant find any specs via length on the factory 170 rods.

The 170 and 200 rod are the same length, 4.715". The 144 rod is longer, 4.855".
 

fast64ranchero

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I am making progress with build using 1JZ rods that Puller pictured above, the crank has been ground to fit the rods without any problems, they even offered to offset grind it for more stroke. I am sticking with stock stroke to help reduce side load. JE pistons are on order. Grinding the crank for the 1JZ rods was $275 if anyone wants to know.
 

gumby23

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fast64ranchero":96m7bwb7 said:
I am making progress with build using 1JZ rods that Puller pictured above, the crank has been ground to fit the rods without any problems, they even offered to offset grind it for more stroke. I am sticking with stock stroke to help reduce side load. JE pistons are on order. Grinding the crank for the 1JZ rods was $275 if anyone wants to know.
This is great info, thanks for the update!
If my engine didn't already have JE pistons on stock rods, I would be looking at these 1jz rods pretty hard. Napkin math says there isn't room to offset the rod journal and destroke enough to make a stock pin height piston fit. :( I cannot throw that money away, but am keeping the 1jz rod info in my hip pocket for next time.
 

xctasy

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Ford mastered parts scrambling better than the Japanese. Ford did so because the Whiz Kids hated spending money, so the prevant thought was that it was chepaer to retool minute changes, as it re-used existing tooling to make other parts in different engine families. And you better belive FoMoCo got a lot of milage out of 4.926" conrods from the 1600 engines. The Kent 4 cylinder engine used in the 1969-1971 1600 Pinto and 1979-1981 Ford Fiesta were based on the same tooling from the Kent plant that made the 1951 four cylinder Counsel and Six cylinder Zephyr compacts. Its not too far to streached that to the Cosworth DFX, DFV V8 and the production Kent based BDA...All were all based on the same bore pitch, just like the railway lines of England are based on the Roman carriageway wheel path widths. Toyota copied the better Cosworth sourced forged 105E and later Kent conrods. So that is why they would do okay in a Falcon six. The DF series Cosworth conrods are variously Titanium or forged steel in 5.125 to 5.375" sizes, and are based on the 302 5.09/5.115" blank. Both the BD series and DF series engines could take 10000 rpm rev limits with the rods Cosworth used.

The US industry uses very clever cyrogenics, and I'd be looking at stock replacemnt race BD or DF Ford conrods in better beam design did yeomans service at the Brick Yard and in GTP and Formula Atlantic racing, as they are still the ultimate. To consider using Toyota Jay Zee rods is fine...they are essentially Kent/Pinto EOA knock-offs in size.

Background:-
Both Toyota (much later, IIRC, 1982) and Nissan (in the Cedric era when the Prince company Chapter 22's) copied the Kent 1300/1500/1600 conrods.

Those Ford conrods, even the stock ones, were really good in terms of metal composition. From 1963, the five bearing 1500 became the basic foundation for the Lotus Cortina "Twin Cam", Lotus 7, Elan and after 1969, the whole bunch of Cosworth BDA engines. The rods went up in center to center size to 5.23" in the high performance Escort rallye cars, and there were other minute changes. This is not anti Japanese sentiment, but the L series 4 cylinder engines and later NAPS-Z crossflow's were bascially BMW 1500 and Kent 4 cylinder Super Short Stroke engine copies, cranks interchangable with the same 3.78 bore spacings. Conrods followed the same 22 mm wrist pin BMW and Ford sizes. The six cylinder L20, L24, L26 and L28's, the diesel LD24's and LD28's, same as the six cylinder BMW 2.5/2.8/3.0/3.2/3.5 engines 3.937" centers for the inner two cylinders, but the outer cylinders were Ford/bmw 4 cylinder bore spacings.

My observation is that TRD essentially recopied the 4AGE as a six cylinder 2.0 and 2.8 engine, and it went 24 valve in 1982 only in the smaller 2 liter JDM version. In side, its pretty much conrod-ed and blocked like a six cylinder version of the 4 cylinder 1558 cc 1963 to 1975 model year Lotus Twin Cam as used in the Seven, Europa Sprint, Elan Big Valve engine. Itself, just a non cross flow 1500 Cortina engine with better internals to cope with 7000 rpm rev limits and 118 to 126 net hp.

Ford did the basic innovation work on making the short stroke Falcon and all that Kent Escort/Cortina Lotus and Cosworth stuff modular engines.

So Ford kept everything the same by changing piston "compression height with a few common conrods. Regards the 144-170-200-250 devlopement, you got a 68% capacity gain in a 4.08 bore spacing engine. The base model 144-170's kept 3.5 pistons, then they stroked and 187 in Argentina, then and then overbored to make 188's and 200, and then tried tall deck 250 strokers. The Roy Lunn's and Robert L McNamara's of the Ford Motor Company in England and the USA in the late 50's had a better idea, and gave super short stroke Ford engines a truly great name by spending a little more money of short conrods with shallower pistons and deck heights than was common. Lunn is credited as being the "father of the modern SUV" and "the godfather of the Ford GT40.", but he was also the Super Short Stroke farther too. The whole Ford Total Performance era from 1963 then turned stock Kent, Essex and Windsor and Cleveland and Lima plant iron blocks into the building blocks of specialist cast iron or light alloy racing engines, with Indy cars, Lemans, SCCA, World Rallye and Championship of Makes, and European Touring car challenges being totally swamped by engines swinging factory derived Ford conrods. Some of the Cologne V6 rods were exceptionally bad, and never got fixed up even with the 4.0 liter Exporer/Mustang SOHC. cONROD failure in the 2.9 liter RS2600 Capris was not uncommon at 8000rpm , but it was just a stock factory 5.14" forged conrod with a 24 mm wrist pin with the best Mahle pistons money could buy. 320 hp, and 500 mile races kind of did that.

The old bore spacing's of the older four and six cylinder engines were kept to save on tooling and machine room and kept the transfer lines the same. They then added deck height only when you had no other conrod options.


The 1969-1974 small bore spacing European import OHC Pinto 2000 used Cosworth BDA pistons, Kent 1600 conrod base forgings, with standard 24 mm Cologne/Saab V4/ 2600/2800 V6 wrist pins. In 1974, the enlarged big bore spacing 2300 got made in the US Lima plant, it got a Volvo bore spacing, and down graded to 144-170-200-250 style 23.16 mm wrist pins, and they went up to 5.20" conrod centers.
 

xctasy

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Its "Rings verses pistons walls in a fight to the death with forged aluminum slugs."

The bores will bed in, and make a moderate boundary layer of very tough low oil retention metal which may use a quart of oil per thousand miles if its as smooth. If its an old fashioned rough out, then it might just take a little longer to bed, and there is the 500 mile verses 6000 mile bed-in.

Piston slap happens,noticeable at 1500 rpm, often with forged pistons that don't have a to-spec plateau hone. Love RaceTeks, SPS'S, Ross pistons, Manley etc, all great stuff. Its the advances in piston and machining tolerances that allow newer non cast high silicon aluminum bore brushers work.There is a whole raft of work that has been done on conrods, and lets face it, a turboed 6 cylinder Toyota rod won't be a problem.


Instead of just thinking about great forged RaceTeks, consider the whole modern development of copying the full ring pack and cylinder bore fine texture specs from the post 1996 HyperEutectic Zolner and Mahle piston Fords. I've seen some issues with kicking out forged pistons on engines that don't have a proper bedding in process. My first was my mate Blairs attempt to upgrade from the factory cast 351 4V pistons to better TRW 351C bore brushers. We got the running clearance too close, and scored the bore. Same think happened with Mike 1157. The RaceTeks need very carefull set up using modern bore texture, and that means spending on someone who can give you the boundary layer target figures.Not average Ra...

Then you can fit in whatever rods you like most.

I'm against forged pistons unless you've gotten a proper bore texture. I'm all for better rods. I'm not into adding things to things unless it solves a clear problem. Breaking through the oil layer, and having to redo block machining is a common problem on six cylinder Fords when you go to forged pistons. Its a whole package, about finding the right mixture of parts.

Total Seal was fist off the blocks with getting the NASA era non average Ra data "out there"

dsc_323-jpg.612672



On the pistons, Rocklord put me onto one combination. You'll find that the Chrysler 3.3 liter V6 piston is a great 1.26" deck option in the near 3.68" size.

Since most 200 blocks are gonna need over boring, I personally recon the best option is a full six hole Melling sleeve kit. If you track down some stock DOHC 2002-2016 Australian Ford Falcon CP XR6 Turbo 3.642" pistons, or the non forged versions from the lower tier 254 to 321 hp versions, you'll not need forged pistons.The two links below describe plateau honing, something Ford and GM learned about in 1996 when the Zolner piston slapping issues happened when modern ring packs were used. The Aussie made piston is supplied by other companies know, but they have a 1.169" compression height, were designed for a 9.22" block deck, with a 6.006" rod length an a 250 cranks 3.91" stroke.

Using the USA Nasa era laser profilometer details on setting up protective, non flutter boundary layer safety and hatch angle, Ford Australia opted to keep the US Windsor 5.0 liter engine alive for a few extra years via a spacial plateau hone of a stock Mountainer/Explorer 5.0 1996-2001 era block, and use it to make a non forged piston, 335 hp 5.6 liter 342 cube stroker. They optimized the bore texture, and downgraded the pistons to a Mahle non forged 4.00", and 1.169" deck piston.

Same applies to the 2002-2016 DOHC Falcons, they kept with non forged 1.169" deck pistons via ACL/Mahle on the non turbo, and they work fine.

The later turbo versions got an extra shot of boost, and made 362 to 422 hp, up from the 5 psi engines 321 hp in the first few years. When extra bost was added, Ford had a downgraded to a very strong, smaller diameter wrist pin, and they used forged pistons via CP.

So forged pistons (albeit, 38 thou undersize from the stock 3.6:cool: for OHC Ford Falcon sixes are around, and they a very, very tough.

Going back
You can offset stroke to 3.316" inches with a 1.936" wrist pin on a 200 crank. Conrod to cam room is limited, but it can be relieved if the cam is kept heads up with no advance or retard. Like the old L6 Holden 179/186 strokers which Bob Mann built with Ford's Australian 3.1, 3.6 or 4.1 (188, 221 or cut down 250 cranks), its con-rod to cam clearance is close, but its doable.

If you used the bomb proof 4.08" bore center crank found on any 1981-1985 Holden 3.3 liter engine, it has a cast nodular iron 12 counter weight crankshaft that can be offset turned by down-hand welding to upsize its 1.899" crank pin to the nominal Toyota size. The stock Holden crank can regularly take 7500 rpm, even in long 99 to 161 lap races. It's GM's best ever cast iron six cylinder crankshaft.

Surface texture of the Melling sleeve is close to optimum for an engine reving to 7000 rpm. With the right rings and Sunen laser profilemeter specs, you can plateau hone a sleeve to suit a 60 or 90 thou overbored 200 engine, and get enough wall thickness to ensure the 200 engine will live practically for ever.


Or some GM 4200 DOHC sleeves and pistons.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 010-9733-y

https://www.sunnen.com/graphics/assets/ ... d2db44.pdf


Sleeves which aren't too big are a time honoured way of making sure an engine lasts


P1030536.jpg
 

rocklord

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Sealed Power (866CP +1.00mm) makes a Chrysler 3.3L V6 piston cast aluminum piston with coated skirt that has a CH of 1.167", pin diameter 0.901", flat top, and a 3.701" bore. Piston is from a 2000-2002 with VIN code G, or R.
 

xctasy

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rocklord":275lh99w said:
Sealed Power (866CP +1.00mm) makes a Chrysler 3.3L V6 piston cast aluminum piston with coated skirt that has a CH of 1.167", pin diameter 0.901", flat top, and a 3.701" bore. Piston is from a 2000-2002 with VIN code G, or R.

Yes!

And some bushed or better than stock custom 5.09" V8 Windsor con-rods would be better, with the right offset ordered.


So its all a delicate balancing act...
 
How much can the stock forged rods handle anyway? I figure that my 200 Probobly makes somewhere around 300hp on spray and probably higher torque since I spray at 2800 rpm. I have already cracked pistons, but so far the rods are holding up. I'd like to get my engine up to 2 hp per cube on the spray, will the rods handle it?
 

pmuller9

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The failure mode will be a bent rod.
I don't know if anyone can give you a failure point for nitrous.
You are correct that at 2800 rpm the additional torque is almost double the HP shot that is being sprayed.
 

fast64ranchero

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Keep in mind when looking for shelf, "NON stock" pistons that a Ford 144/170/200 or 250 has 3 right side intake valves and 3 left side intake valves, so, valve reliefs could/will become an issue with larger lift cams. You can't just throw any old piston in that meets you Pin height, pin size and bore.
 

chad

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Exhaust valves don't enter the CC as deeply as intake?
 

Sergeant82d

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xctasy":3gp3v31e said:
And some bushed or better than stock custom 5.09" V8 Windsor con-rods would be better, with the right offset ordered.

So its all a delicate balancing act...

What offset are you talking about here? I'm gathering parts for a hi-po 200 build right now, and just ordered a set of Scat H-beam 302W rods (5.09 c-c). Do you mean the piston compression height? That I understand.... :hmmm:

Thanks!
Brad
 

pmuller9

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Sergeant82d":ewi51cfh said:
xctasy":ewi51cfh said:
And some bushed or better than stock custom 5.09" V8 Windsor con-rods would be better, with the right offset ordered.

So its all a delicate balancing act...

What offset are you talking about here? I'm gathering parts for a hi-po 200 build right now, and just ordered a set of Scat H-beam 302W rods (5.09 c-c). Do you mean the piston compression height? That I understand.... :hmmm:

Thanks!
Brad
The 302 rod beams and the rod's small ends are not centered over the rod's big end because the V8 cylinder bores are not centered over the crankshaft rod journals.
The cylinders for the Ford straight sixes are centered over the crank journals and the rod beams are not offset.

Secondly the big end of the Scat 302 rods are only .830" wide while the Ford six rod big ends are .992"
That leaves an addition 0.162" of connecting rod side clearance on the crankshaft.
Were you planning on doing a piston guided set-up?
 
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