CI/VI head setup questions

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Problems never end. The springs are 165lbs on seat @ 1.8 and 440lbs @ .625 lift, too much for a flat tappet cam. Comp cams is now involved as this is way out of spec. For anyone doing this in the future. have the valves made with Bead lock groves. you have better options for keepers (can get up to +50 to -50 keepers) mine are flat/square groves.
I did order Toyota 1JZ rods
 

pmuller9

5K+
VIP
Supporter 2018
Supporter 2021
Good thing you checked the actual spring pressure.
Did Comp give an explanation why the spring pressure is so far off?
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
pmuller9":12r407lj said:
Good thing you checked the actual spring pressure.
Did Comp give an explanation why the spring pressure is so far off?
No response from Comp yet, it is at Comp QA. Lots of options for Beehive springs, but I kinda wanted the Conicals. I even coil bound one for a couple minutes and it only dropped 2 lbs to 163 @ 1.8" Kinda funny Comp ask if we are checking them with retainer... Once we said no they started to believe us.
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Comp's QA team checked the springs they have and they are all within "spec" they did admit they all tested higher than advertised but within 5% and at the same time admitted they ranged from 145-152lbs @ 1.8" Still too much as we have to set installed height @ 1.75"

They list Beehive springs that should work and will correct the problem. I should be used to all these little problems, but I'm not. be lucky to have it together and running by Spring.

On the positive side of things, I got my MaxSpeedRods for a Toyota 1JZ in the mail, they look really nice for the money. Now I need to pull the engine so I can get the crank to the same guy that offset ground my 250 stroker crank.

Walt
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
pmuller9":2mltnjh6 said:
Would you mind posting a picture of the rods or a single rod?
I haven't Posted pictures sense Photo Bucket pulled there crap. I use Tapatalk on other sites but this site doesn't come up on tapatalk. I'll have to figure it out so I can start a build thread with pics and info.
 

xctasy

5K+
VIP
fast64ranchero":w6tsn0zs said:
pmuller9":w6tsn0zs said:
fast64ranchero":w6tsn0zs said:
Exact specs will be on the cam card when the cam comes. Over the phone specs are .571/.584 and 238/242 @ 50 on 113 or 114 he talked about both.
I have more Cylinder head and Cam than my bottom end can handle. Guess I should build a bottom end that will handle what the top end is possible of making. Now to go find that thread about those Toyota rods..
That's a little more cam than what I was expecting for street use but it will certainly utilize the head potential.
Which cam company is it.

Here is the connecting rod thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77943#p600461

Little more than I was expecting also. Started off even bigger but we backed it down. My only request to the tech was I want a cam that will start making power by 3K rpm.
I better put the Spring info in here also. Springs I am going to us are, Comp cam 7228, retainers are tool steel 1772 and locators are 4680. Installed height is 1.80" seat pressure is 137lbs, and 410lbs @ .625"


The short rod to stroke ratio will work on settling down the cam. I really prefer the Windsor 0.875" lifter Restrictor Jet NASCAR profile used in the 289 8.7;1 compression engine the late Frank Currie used. Its bang on the 50 thou and peak lift values you have. The cam choice is important, and its important to add just a little more duration at the 235 degrees at 50 thou level. The Big head ports are offset by excellent mixture motion Elmo put into blending the port and valve cuts, and the rod ratio softens the aggression. Lobe centers are best kept around 112 to 114.


You should look at what kind of induction works best. No judging you, if 4bbl EFi is your bag, then dive in, but the VI/ CI intake was never a real smoot supplier of juice to all six cylinders. I seriously wouldn't even look at a 4bbl Throttle Body EFi system, but port EFi and an Aftermarket ECM.


You and others like 67Six should pool your resources, and use the Holley Commander Port EFi.


I can't see any cam probelms. I like Sodium Mercedes Benz G wagon, or 280e/280SE 9mm or the earlier 10 mm quide valves, which have a lash cap/cup to to cope with cam lobe, and come in at a 5.16" length. This is the 253/304/308 GM Holden valve size, similar to the 283 chev, but with another 250 thou length. US engines that perform are V8's. The FE 332-352 designers who pushed the 144/170 engine into prodction during the Whizz Kid 18 month Crash Course McNamara instigated a course of down grading the FE valve lengths to suit the common German Cologne V4/V6 valve gear they had qued up for the planned front drive Corsair/ Cardinal subcompact due out in 1962. It was Y block with a twist. The FE valve gear, and longer 280 Twin Cam Mercedes Benz valves will get you a proper valve spring that won't chop out the cam lobes. You then have to decide....1.5, 1.6 or 1.73:1 rocker ratios.

With the exception for how to quell detonation, a little 200 with the right turbo will eat up the cam you have. Ak Miller and Racer Walsh were sticking far more aggressive bumpsticks in there 5.13:1 geared C4 trans 2 liter Pinto's with T04's in the mid seventies.


Stop using Fords downgraded valve length. Follow the Australian path ofr 7000 to 8000 rpm production racing engines. The longer valves were devised by Repco and were used in F5000, then the L34 and A9X 600 mile endurance racing V8's. The in line sixes in Sports Sedans and Super Sedans then used the same Chevy plus 250 thou long valves to allow the engine to rev without making Locomotive Springs for the stock short a$$ valves in XU1 GTR's and 2V 250's. All the Oval track and speedway guys dialed up aftermarket Yella Trrra 253 valves with V8 valve gear on 202 Holden Sixes and some 221 or 250 Falcons with the cutoff log head.


The 240/300's have the same stupid down graded valve height, mainly because of rocker ball valve noise and pushrod side plate noise in an in line six getting really bad when you go to bigger valve lift. So no one looks at 1.73 or 1.76 Fe or 1.75 Chevy rocker ratios, and taking advantage of the 0.875 " lifter to add some real early valve lift.


A set of Benz valves are at a wrecking yard, and you can then use some simple FE logic with lash caps, and rockers and springs which are supple enough to avoid over loading the cam. Rocker gear can be redrilled for Fords shaft rocker gear, of redrilled to suit the 200/250 valve pitches.


Fords 144/170/188/221/250 small six valve gear is a disaster, and shouldnm't be copied, but upgraded to FE parts, and use the SAME Internastional/ FE 427/428 Le Mans style sodium cooled valves and good old US LeMans winning endurance ideas. Not the stock crap thats giving you grief.
 

pmuller9

5K+
VIP
Supporter 2018
Supporter 2021
xctasy":rr0cnxff said:
Stop using Fords downgraded valve length.

The valves in this head are custom with a +.300" length.
I would expect that YellaTerra 1.65 ratio adjustable roller rockers will be used.

On the Ford 240/300 side we use +.260" length valves with the high lift cams.
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
pmuller9":583zq7eq said:
xctasy":583zq7eq said:
Stop using Fords downgraded valve length.

The valves in this head are custom with a +.300" length.
I would expect that YellaTerra 1.65 ratio adjustable roller rockers will be used.

Both are correct statements.
Anyone have info on what the design thinkness of the alum head at the valve spring pocket is? I know it's not suppose to be cut deeper, but would like to know what Mike and the others that designed the head set for the spring pocket minimum between spring pocket and intake port roof.

No real progress to report, if someone wants to host/post pictures of this stuff for me, please pm me with contact info (text number or email)
 

bubba22349

Top Poster
Staff member
VIP
Supporter 2021
Supporter 2019
REDLINE 10K
:beer: thats beautiful port work and some really great looking rods too (y) :nod:
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Finally got the head mocked together, and figured out, it's a big cam and we had to work around a coil bind issue. The head is back at the porters for final touch ups and hopefully flow testing again.
I'm having trouble finding a low mount large bell 81-83 engine at a reasonable price, so my hold up right now is me not wanting to pull the stock engine out for machine work until the weather gets crappy and I can't drive it, or I could pay $400 for a core engine, (which is really what I should do). So sorry nothing really to report, as things come together I'll start a new engine build thread. I'm sure I'll have little issues with the rotating assembly also.
Walt
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Update, The head is done and in my hands ready to bolt on. Beehive springs ended up 140-145 on the seats and 350 open.
I also purchased a low mount big bell engine off FeBay. When the engine arrives I'll strip it and get the crank and block to the machine. shop. I'll start a new thread in one of the sections to cover the head and short block details.
 

pmuller9

5K+
VIP
Supporter 2018
Supporter 2021
Thanks for the update.
A new thread with details on the head will help those that want to maximize the head performance.
The short block details will be of great help also.
Looking forward to your results.

Side Note: I use BWE (Bruce Walker) zero gap rings since he was the one that developed them.
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Engine is completely assembled, waiting on header flange to start my turbo header. Turbo choice is a EFR black series 8474. Unsure on what EFI will be used, I may start with Holley sniper to get it running.
 
Top